Intelligence = maturity? an observation

[Cheryl in NM]

Many homeschooled children are way above grade level on some of their subjects. Many homeschooled children are very intelligent. Does that mean that they are more mature? I've seen a pretty even split between homeschooled children who were mature for their age and those who were immature for their age, and of course, there are those that are spot on for their age.

 

I've made this mistake with my son. He scored college level in a few of his subjects on a standardized test. I increased my expectations of him immediately. What I learned was that, even though he is intelligent in those subjects, he wasn't mature enough for all the responsibility I heaped on him. For example, he cannot look at a monthly (or even weekly) goal and break it into a daily amount of work. He also, wasn't capable of realizing that he wasn't on task. We are still struggling to catch up. I've showed him dozens of times how to break up his work. He just isn't ready for that responsibility.

 

I knew a girl that was very smart in a few subjects and her mother was very prideful of the fact. That transferred to her daughter and the other kids didn't want to be around her because she was always bragging about her math skills, but she still couldn't read at 10 years old.

 

I think it's challenging as a parent to determine what our children are emotionally ready for. I think it exacerbates the problem when the child is very intelligent or excels in some areas.

 

Has anyone else noticed this? How do you determine that you are asking enough of your child, but not too much?

[Heather in Neverland]

My ds is very intelligent and can speak in a mature fashion with adults on deeper subjects like theology. But socially he is naive and a bit immature. It's hard sometimes because I want him to act as old as he thinks but really, he is just a 13 yo boy. :D

[LisaKinVA]

Development doesn't usually occur on a some sort of straight-line curve. It bends, bounces, and may even remain flat...mix in the fact that different domains may grow at different rates, and you have the great big "no one can tell you for certain."

 

My oldest son can handle logic-stage material in math and science. He cannot handle logic-stage material in literature, or other literature-based studies (like history). He can be very mature about some things that are straight forward... and very immature about social situations that require more intuition or skepticism.

 

IME, intelligence does not equal maturity. It's easy to confuse the two... but these may develop at completely different rates.

[gardenmom5]

Development doesn't usually occur on a some sort of straight-line curve. It bends, bounces, and may even remain flat...mix in the fact that different domains may grow at different rates, and you have the great big "no one can tell you for certain."

 

IME, intelligence does not equal maturity. It's easy to confuse the two... but these may develop at completely different rates.

:iagree: Lisa said it well. I've four adult children, different areas develop at different rates even from child to child. and intellegence and maturity are two ENTIRELY different things.

[9763653]

Intelligence does not equal maturity. My kid can have an intelligent discussion about politics one minute and have a tantrum because she wanted the pink glass instead of the green one the next.

 

Maturity doesn't equal intelligence either :D.

[Ester Maria]

Intelligence definitely does NOT equal maturity. Two completely different things. One can "speed up" intellectual development if one has a child that is brighter than an average one, but it is virtually impossible to "speed up" the process of reaching emotional maturity - it is a path different for each individual according to their life circumstances. Some children, especially from adverse circumstances, will be more mature life-wise than other children. I find that most homeschooled children are actually in this second category, being almost automatically more sheltered than their peers, so if one can generalize at all, they are probably likely to be less mature overall.

 

For most of my DC's friends, school is a "sink or swim" experience. Nobody coddles them. Nobody pays a particular attention to them nor is willing to provide particular favors and accomodations for them. They have to take care of their own work without many benevolent reminders about dates, deadlines, upcoming tests, and so forth. They have to organize themselves. Their parents typically both work, most of them are fully responsible for getting themselves to and from school at a teen age, as well as to and from all of their additional activities. They circle in the chaos of public transport daily on their own. They deal with monetary transactions daily. They deal with the school-related bureaucracy on their own, excusing absences, and so forth. They often keep record of and make their own doctor's appointments. If they get into a trouble at school, they typically have to get themselves out of it on their own, negotiate their way out, stand up for themselves. They can be called out for public oral examinations in front of the whole class ANY day, ANY subject, and the grade typically counts towards the final grade. Their parents typically want the little time they have with their children in the evenings and weekends to be quality, family time and NOT fussing about school, so nobody is really controlling their work (provided those are good students) and it is assumed that they are responsible for what they do. They typically have richer social lives and start going out (as in, theatre productions, Saturday evening clubbings, etc.) already as teens (within limits - but often FAR, FAR more than what an average American homeschooling family would allow). They organize themselves with their friends from school for things such as skiing, shorter summer vacations together, with minimal adult oversight and away from parents. They get sent for semesters or years abroad for the sake of international education, again without parents, and are expected to be mature enough to handle it all on their own - from figuring their way out on international flights to normally taking care of all fo their stuff in the semi-independent living while they stay abroad. In other words, they circle more "in society" and simply have more experiences to develop that maturity - with people, with money, with their own responsibilities, and to navigate greater freedoms. Because of that, it is easier for them to handle the stress of the school, as it is just a normal part of the picture.

 

On the other hand, your typical homeschooling student is at home all day, parents book everything and drive him to and from everything (except maybe a job past certain age), monetary transactions experience is limites, he is typically travelling only with parents who still take care of everything, the maximum serious responsibility is babysitting for a while, etc. He gets coddled and accomodated a LOT with school, reminded about things, given second chances to learn things "to mastery", he is not being compared with other thirty children in a competitive class in a school, etc. And then there is the famous "socializing", which we all roll our eyes about, but we must still acknowledge our children get less of it than children who are literally surrounded with non-family all days for hours and hours in all sorts of environments (from competitive academic, to interaction in institutions / bureaucracy / etc.). They deal with less stress. They are probably more likely to make a fuss out of school, simply because unaccustomed to the dynamics with other equally capable students, even if they are highly intelligent - there is limited negative peer pressure, but also limited positive peer pressure. Children can often really be out of sync with what is "normal" at good schools (I always notice a huge improvement in behavior after I drop the kids off at a school for a few days or weeks, or if they are staying with friends abroad and attend for curiosity for a little. It is a good reality check and anti-arrogance vaccine to know and to be academically confronted with other highly intelligent and highly accomplished children from good schools). There are definitely downsides regarding emotional maturity in children who are cut off from the school environment, though it is such a taboo to discuss it in homeschooling circles. Yet, we have all weighed the downsides and the benefits and obviously for many of us homeschooling is still a better option.

 

So, if anything, I would argue an average homeschooling teenager is less mature than an average non-homeschooled teenager - except maybe when it comes to domestic responsibilities - though it is really difficult to generalize as people come from so different backgrounds and situations.

 

As for artifically increasing the school load "just because the child can do it", I have always been against that if the drive does not come from the child. I am all for solid, high standards, but consistent ones, communicated in advance, comparable to what is done in good schools - anything above that, I really think that it has to come from the child, not the parent, and inconsistency in standards is something I find generally bad. :)

[Cheryl in NM]

Wow! EsterMaria that was an amazing post! I've never heard all that put so concisely and accurately without it being offensive. Thank you!

 

Pink cup tantrum - priceless! :lol: ITA, I get those weird, off the wall, "where did THAT come from" tantrums as well from ds.

 

Lisa-Thank you, you are absolutely right!

 

Heather - That is my problem as well. Sometimes ds seems like a very intelligent, well versed mini adult, but then out comes the teenage angst! Oh well, I guess that's just par for the course! It's sometimes hard with him too because he looks like a man, he's been mistaken for an adult many times. When did that happen?! :001_huh: My baby is growing up!

[Starr]

I like the way one of my friends put it, "my children have to go through all the developmental stages." :D In some fashion or another that sums it up.

[regentrude]

Intelligence definitely does NOT equal maturity. Two completely different things.

 

I agree. I have two equally intelligent children. One is emotionally and maturity wise pretty much how his age would suggest. The other has been emotionally more mature than her age pretty much from early childhood on.

 

 

They typically have richer social lives and start going out (as in, theatre productions, Saturday evening clubbings, etc.) already as teens (within limits - but often FAR, FAR more than what an average American homeschooling family would allow). They organize themselves with their friends from school for things such as skiing, shorter summer vacations together, with minimal adult oversight and away from parents.

[...]

On the other hand, your typical homeschooling student is at home all day, parents book everything and drive him to and from everything (except maybe a job past certain age), monetary transactions experience is limites, he is typically travelling only with parents who still take care of everything, the maximum serious responsibility is babysitting for a while, etc.

I think it is always dangerous to make statements based on the "typical" kid. Honestly, I do not know what the typical student does.

 

I know that I have certain goals in mind with respect to independence and self-sufficiency, and that I try to give my children opportunities to develop these traits. I actively seek these out. The decision of how much maturity and independence I can expect depends largely on the child.

DD has been comfortable using public transit independently in a large European city she knows well since she was 12. When she is involved in activities around her riding, she is in charge of coordinating her transportation needs, organizing rides, getting the items she needs, budgeting her money, spending days and overnights without parents (but in the company of young people we know and trust). So, to me, homeschooling does not preclude the development of self-sufficiency.

 

And then there is the famous "socializing", which we all roll our eyes about, but we must still acknowledge our children get less of it than children who are literally surrounded with non-family all days for hours and hours in all sorts of environments (from competitive academic, to interaction in institutions / bureaucracy / etc.).

Agreed, they get less time with other people- but then again, I do not think the amount of time spent the the company of same age peers in an extremely rigidly structured environment is a good indicator for the development of maturity.

 

There are definitely downsides regarding emotional maturity in children who are cut off from the school environment, though it is such a taboo to discuss it in homeschooling circles.

One issue I have with the school environment is that the kids have to deal with equally emotionally immature kids. I am not sure whether learning to accept bullying or learning to hide your true self and interests for fear of being bullied would be considered emotional maturity.

I find that DD has grown emotionally a lot since she has been interacting with a group of older, more mature, young women who can MODEL mature behavior. There is still enough immaturity and drama and issues for her to observe these behaviors and learn from them, but I do not think it is necessary to wallow in an atmosphere that is saturated with teen angst and drama because of 30 same age kids in a room.

Surely, some parents shelter their kids and supervise every interaction, thus making emotional learning very difficult - but we as parents have the choice.

 

So, if anything, I would argue an average homeschooling teenager is less mature than an average non-homeschooled teenager - except maybe when it comes to domestic responsibilities - though it is really difficult to generalize as people come from so different backgrounds and situations.

One more thought: I find that, at least with the way I am homeschooling, my kids are much more mature when it comes to taking responsibility for their education. I train them to work independently. They are in charge of their schedules, of time management. I do not micromanage their learning by giving detailed daily assignments as is done in school, by grading homework, by reminding, nagging, prodding. They are much more involved in designing their education and, in certain ways, act more mature than many of my college students who still expect to be spoonfed the material, to be given detailed instructions for their learning, who completely lack initiative and the desire to take responsibility for their learning.

So, I tend to think a LOT will depend on the way hoe the students are homeschooled, and statements about averages are, as so often, meaningless for an individual case.

 

As for artifically increasing the school load "just because the child can do it", I have always been against that if the drive does not come from the child. I am all for solid, high standards, but consistent ones, communicated in advance, comparable to what is done in good schools

I basically agree. I think, however, that you and I have different "good schools" in mind when setting out standards than some other people. (Just thinking about the fact that the public school in our town here are award winning Blue ribbon schools.. and do not even come close to my idea of what a good school should look like)

OTOH, I also think that I would make less rigorous demands if I had a struggling, less intelligent student whom I did not deem capable of the level of work that I consider appropriate for kids who learn easily. Back home, such a student would attend a different school, with different educational goals that match his needs and abilities - and I do not consider this a bad thing. I definitely tailor the demands to my kids' abilities and do not expect them to preform at equal levels in all subjects.

[Sevilla]

You can be a different intellectual vs. socio-emotional maturity. I saw this in myself as a child (I was far more advanced intellectually - easiliy several grade levels ahead. But socially? I was right smack in the middle of average with an extra dose of difficulty due to being gifted and female in a small school). I also see this in my child who is most similar to me - true to pattern, advanced several grades academically but exceedingly average in social maturity - I would never call him 'mature' but I would call him thoughtful and responsible :).

[Cheryl in NM]

You can be a different intellectual vs. socio-emotional maturity. I saw this in myself as a child (I was far more advanced intellectually - easiliy several grade levels ahead. But socially? I was right smack in the middle of average with an extra dose of difficulty due to being gifted and female in a small school). I also see this in my child who is most similar to me - true to pattern, advanced several grades academically but exceedingly average in social maturity - I would never call him 'mature' but I would call him thoughtful and responsible :).

 

I agree. I just remembered a situation with my step-daughter. She is extremely smart. The public schools never challenged her but the circumstances between her mother and father made it impossible to homeschool her. Anyway, based on that she asked for permission to attend an event with some friends (I don't even remember the event now). I remember Dh and I discussing it and agreeing with mis-givings. Years later she told me that she wished we hadn't let her do it because she wasn't ready for it yet. Funny, I don't even remember what "it" was, just that, as parent, I knew what was right and went against it because my very smart teenaged dsd wanted it. I figured that if she was so smart she'd know what she could handle. Apparently, I was wrong. I remember that clearly now when considering what Ds wants. I'm more careful now.

[Ester Maria]

I think it is always dangerous to make statements based on the "typical" kid. Honestly, I do not know what the typical student does.

You have a point. My random examples only represent my experience with what I have observed, in general, so I made a rough comparison. I agree that many factors (cultural ones, family dynamic) are absent, even if we are talking about children from comparable socioeconomic backgrounds.

So, to me, homeschooling does not preclude the development of self-sufficiency.

No, it does not preclude - but it does make it more difficult in many cases, as you might find yourself in situations that you have to intentionally put your children in the situations equivalent to those that their peers end up in more "naturally".

 

For example, how do you work on traveling skills if you do not have to travel? My DC's institutionally schooled friends have to go to and from school and use a subway / bus / whatever on a daily basis, they have to go to school trips and inevitably end up having to find their way around in unknown places during their free time on those trips, organized class skiing is such a normal thing that it goes without saying - yet it involves huge amounts of responsibility from each child individually (for their equipment, for getting places on time, managing travel / tickets / luggage, managing restaurant times and money, etc.). It does not mean that homeschooled children do not do these things (in fact many of them do), but they are not, by the virtue of institutional schooling, made to learn those skills.

 

Same goes for people skills - institutionally schooled children are made to learn how to handle bureaucracy, made to learn how to solve conflicts with authorities, made to learn how to handle social dynamic of large groups of people in an academically competitive environment, made to learn how to handle mean people and stand up for themselves, etc. It does not preclude homeschooled children to learn that, but it is not one of those "goes without saying" things which I observe in institituonally schooled children.

 

Same goes for academics, deadlines, producing standard output, being prepared for every lesson, etc.

 

It is not one of those things, what I notice is actually a *combination* of ALL of that that my DC's institutionally schooled friends have, which ultimately ends up in circling more "in society" and just handling it all with greater ease and less fuss. I think that my DC are fairly independent, yet I have had a few surprises.

 

Recently my daughter was applying for something which involved quite a bit of bureaucratic annoyance. She absolutely panicked. :glare: Approximately like this: "I need a confirmation about health insurance? But why, if it is all within EU? Where do I get that?! To which authorities to I have to go to get birth records and citizenship confirmation?! WHAT?! Are you telling me that after getting the originals of this and that form, I need to go to a LAWYER to get a copy - I cannot use a regular copy?! How the heck am I going to do that?! I need to TRANSLATE my school records?! Where?! How does one do that? Does it also need legal approval? How will they balance the records if the school systems are not entirely incompatible? Whom do I have to call to inquire about that? MOOOOOM!! On this form they have wrong dates, what do I do, whom do I call? But I cannot call that office - they told me to call them only AFTER I have sent and faxmailed those other documents. Oh my God. What do I do now?! MOM!! How do I confirm that I have enough resources? They intend money? They cannot legally ask me for a copy of the bank account, can they?! But wait, do you not also have a possibility to handle that account? Does the account have to be fully independent?! Do I need to call the bank for that? How do I provide a residence address for contact, I cannot do it yet or they will send me all the information there? But how can I include two addresses if there is not enough space on the formular?!Darn, mom, I just figured out this document has to be submitted in French!!! What if I screw something up?! Mom, what do I do? Mom, can you write this in French for me? Mom, can you just get those documents and do these stuff for me PLEASE?!"

 

Well, no, dear daughter, I cannot do your work for you.

 

Her friends? Pfff... Picked up their health insurance confirmation one day when they were coming back from school, off to the lawyer, off for a coffee while the legal stuff were in process, problems with dates? Figured out right away who on the bureaucratic ladder is most likely to know the answer to what to do, asked for school records next day, a problem with French? off to the prof to get help with the application, etc., all of that without as much fuss, without as much stress, because they are just used to doing these things, they have people skills, they know how to deal with bureaucrats, they know how to strategically plan the order in which they get the needed documents and submit them, and so forth.

My kid? DRAMA. :001_huh: And this is a VERY independent and intelligent child - but some of that office communication / bureaucracy / legal procedures were just a totally new skill for her. Then they turned her down. Then she did not know something and - MY child did not know how to be assertive!!! :glare: - and did not realize she had to go from one office to another projecting a secure attitude until the thing is solved, or until they get so bored with her to solve it for her even if it "cannot" be solved. Then oy, misspellings which should not occur. Redo. Submit again, but before you submit again, the official notice of the change, which needs to be stamped. Panic, hurry, calling a cab, the office where it gets stamped is closed. WHAT NOW?! Instead of solving issues which arise - calling mommy dearest to listen to you panicking on the phone while attempting to calm down a sneezing one year old.

 

It was a total eye opener for me - not so much that the kid was confused and less than independent, but that there was such a stark contrast between her and OTHER kids, who were maybe scary and stressed a little as it was a fairly new thing for them too, but essentially had all the skills involved in doing it successfully on their own. Without calling mommy dearest to melt down at phone every step of the way. Knowing that there are always solutions, even when things go wrong, and knowing that they have to project a secure attitude and be persistent. And they were minimally absent from school and their other duties while taking care of all of that, while my kid "could not concentrate" and postponed her school for two weeks. Geeez. I was completely shocked how she could be so overwhelmed by so simple things. These are not "real" life problems, these are not even a preamble of that - these are bureaucratic nonsense of the kind that nothing will go really wrong if you mess it up, you will just lose out on that which you are applying for. I could just not believe that MY child could assume such a passive, panicky attitude rather than walk straight into the heart of the problem and deal with it until it is solved, which is what I have always taught them. And not only assume it in a moment of crisis or a few - which I could understand, happens, we are human - but as a general attitude. Unbelievable. One of those situations when you do not know whether to be mad, to pity the poor kid or to laugh and downplay the importance of it not to stress the kind. I tend to err on the latter side.

 

I am NOT saying that all homeschooled teens would react this way or that all institutionally schooled teens would find these skills easy peasy - but this is an example of what I am talking about. It is not so much about structured environment for eight hours day, but that it involves a completely different lifestyle for those kids which in turn makes them a lot more street-smart.

 

On a lighter note, you must not imagine organized German bureaucracy while reading this :tongue_smilie:, so partially I understand the kid's frustration, but these were simple things she should have been able to do, even as a minor, maybe with some annoyance, but not with so much stress.