Can anyone help me salvage this year of math?

[ssexton]

My 7th grade ds is using Saxon 87 (with Art Reed) this year after using CLE 4, 5 and 6 over the last three years. He has done well with CLE, but I was hoping to move him over to DVD instruction to free up some time for me to work with my Kindy ds.

 

It's been rough going so far. He's making lots of careless mistakes and some of the word problems are poorly worded and confusing. This child is good in math, (standardized math scores are in the very high 90% range) but he struggles with careless mistakes. He has benefited from the spiral review in CLE, though we did accelerate and forgo some of the review.

 

My goal is for him to begin Algebra 1 next year as an 8th grader. But, I'm not convinced we should continue with Saxon. If I switch things this year, am I going to put him too far behind? The three options I'm considering:

 

1. Sticking it out through Saxon 87 for this year.

2. Going back to CLE 7 and accelerating through the year.

3. I have a Lial's BCM text and solutions manual on the way (cheap at Amazon!) But, I don't see how we can work through this before next fall.

 

For algebra 1, I'm thinking either Lial's or Foerster. Not sure yet.

 

Thanks so much for any advice!

[wapiti]

It's only October - surely you could work through a prealgebra text before next fall, maybe including doing a bit of math over the summer?

[ssexton]

Yes, I guess it's not that late in the year. It just somehow seems it! Must be a little tired today. :) And, I hesitate at the thought of jumping mid year, but I'm not feeling great about sticking with Saxon. I guess I'm looking for reassurance that I'm not being unreasonable switching math in the middle of the year. Or, for someone to tell me if I am being unreasonable.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

My 7th grade ds is using Saxon 87 (with Art Reed) this year after using CLE 4, 5 and 6 over the last three years. He has done well with CLE, but I was hoping to move him over to DVD instruction to free up some time for me to work with my Kindy ds.

 

It's been rough going so far. He's making lots of careless mistakes and some of the word problems are poorly worded and confusing. This child is good in math, (standardized math scores are in the very high 90% range) but he struggles with careless mistakes. He has benefited from the spiral review in CLE, though we did accelerate and forgo some of the review.

 

My goal is for him to begin Algebra 1 next year as an 8th grader. But, I'm not convinced we should continue with Saxon. If I switch things this year, am I going to put him too far behind? The three options I'm considering:

 

1. Sticking it out through Saxon 87 for this year.

2. Going back to CLE 7 and accelerating through the year.

3. I have a Lial's BCM text and solutions manual on the way (cheap at Amazon!) But, I don't see how we can work through this before next fall.

 

For algebra 1, I'm thinking either Lial's or Foerster. Not sure yet.

 

Thanks so much for any advice!

 

I was fretting over how I would schedule AoPS Algebra this year, since it doesn't seem to divide neatly into 180 lessons. DH looked at me and said, "Because your number one goal is to get through the book as fast as you can, right?"

 

It sort of took all the stress out of the planning. Of course my goal was to have my kids master the math. Of course moving on to the next level was pointless if they couldn't do the stuff they were on already cold.

 

I mention that because the "work through this before next fall" reminded me of how I was feeling trying to do that scheduling.

 

Keep what you have (Saxon 8/7 or the Lial you have on the way). Work through it for mastery. That may mean that your son has to completely rework anything he gets wrong. That may mean sticking on a lesson with supplemental explanations from places like Khan Academy, Danica McKellar books or AoPS.

 

But don't keep moving forward if he's making mistakes. The mistakes may indicate sloppiness or them may indicate that he doesn't really understand what he's up to. (One thing I'm finding is that I really need to be much more of a hovering parent or even an "at the elbow" parent with math than I need to be with history or language arts. If I don't put that time into supervising and encouraging and assisting, I end up paying triple because we have to redo the lessons.)

 

It's important to keep consistant and to not let long periods go by when you don't work on math. But racing to algebra (or from algebra to calculus) before mastery is sort of shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Also, I've become a huge fan of the problem sets on Alcumus. I think that some of them would be in the range of what your ds is working on.

[Tiramisu]

Saxon 87 is supposed to be tough. We used that our first year of hsing and decided to drop it part way through the year. I don't know if that was a good decision or not, but dd was spending forever on the lessons and began to hate math. Like your ds, she was a good math student but prone to careless mistakes. (The tendency to make careless mistakes subsided a lot in high school so have hope!). I think if I had known about CLE then, I would have tried it. For someone prone to careless mistakes, I think the workbook is a benefit because there's less of a chance of copying errors. That's what I'm using with my youngers.

 

I would worry less about starting alg. 1 in the beginning of 8th grade and make sure he's got his stuff down. It will really help later in upper level math if his foundation is solid.

[ssexton]

One thing I'm finding is that I really need to be much more of a hovering parent or even an "at the elbow" parent with math than I need to be with history or language arts. If I don't put that time into supervising and encouraging and assisting, I end up paying triple because we have to redo the lessons.

 

This! I think this is a part of the discomfort I'm having. I don't watch the DVDs, so I'm not sure what Mr. Reed has covered or how he covers it. So when my son needs help, I feel too far out of the loop. The DVDs really aren't saving me any time--I think I need to either watch them too, or teach the material myself.

 

Thank you for the other AoPS resources too! I'm going to look at those closely. And, yes, I completely agree with not rushing to algebra before he has solidified his understanding. Thanks for the reminder!!

[ssexton]

NJKelli, thanks for your insight! May I ask what you switched to after Saxon 87? And how did it work? We have loved CLE and this time I'm using it for my youngest from the very beginning. :thumbup1:

[3byzaz]

Not much to add, except that CLE 700 is no walk in the park. It it pretty tough. Luckily, my bf used it with her son and had warned me. Just FYI! But, if he did well with CLE, it is pretty independent...so maybe stick with it? I just don't think you could accelerate it much...unless you skip problems and do 2 lessons some days.

[KarenNC]

This! I think this is a part of the discomfort I'm having. I don't watch the DVDs, so I'm not sure what Mr. Reed has covered or how he covers it. So when my son needs help, I feel too far out of the loop. The DVDs really aren't saving me any time--I think I need to either watch them too, or teach the material myself.

 

Thank you for the other AoPS resources too! I'm going to look at those closely. And, yes, I completely agree with not rushing to algebra before he has solidified his understanding. Thanks for the reminder!!

 

I'm not clear on the question. What does he need help with---content or not being careless?

 

From what you are saying, it isn't that he doesn't understand the content, it's that he makes careless mistakes. We're in 7/6, and I've had to work with my daughter on making sure she copies problems properly, lines up problems correctly, etc. Is that the sort of thing you mean? I'm not sure I see how switching programs will prevent or change that--the issue is not the program, but the student. What's helped in our situation is doing math on graph paper, requiring her to rework on her own time anything she misses, etc. The first gave her the tools to assist her in being neater, the second gave her motivation to pay closer attention so she didn't have to spend as long on it. Actually, we go over the material, then she is assigned the problem set to do as "homework" rather than with me. We go over the answers the next day and she reworks any errors as an addition to her next problem set. Her careless error rate actually plummeted once the extra work she had to do because of carelessness was her problem and cut into her time rather than mine. Didn't totally go away, but did sharply decrease. I also quit recording grades for homework assignments and only record tests, which made a difference.

 

If you think the problem is stemming from not understanding content because of the dvd format, is there a reason you wouldn't want to try teaching the material yourself for a bit to see if that makes a difference before switching programs? If the issue is inherent in the use of dvds vs teaching it directly, switching programs seems less likely to take care of the problem. You would still be out of the loop with any other dvd-based program you tried (does CLE have a dvd option? I don't know). I would suggest spending a few weeks (enough to get through at least two or three tests) where you do the instruction, using the dvds for a different explanation if needed. That should give you an indication of whether his scores improve.

 

Did you do a Saxon placement test when you switched? Did he place squarely in 8/7? The placement test had put my daughter almost in 7/6 last year, so I went ahead and put her in the higher level rather than going through 6/5, figuring the review would take care of any holes, but that didn't work out. She struggled with lots of errors, including what looked like careless ones. We dropped back, tested through 6/5 looking for holes (at Art Reed's suggestion), then stopped and worked on areas that needed reinforcement. This year in 7/6 has gone much better.

[ssexton]

I'm not clear on the question. What does he need help with---content or not being careless?

 

Well, let me think this through. He did test into Saxon 87 pretty solidly. He's just finished lesson 30, and he's been making mostly 80% on his tests--generally one or two of the mistakes are careless in nature. I'd feel better if he brought that average up a bit. He also sometimes requests help on one or two problems from the practice set. Since I haven't watched the DVD, I feel like I'm stumbling a bit when I try to help. Which is a bit uncomfortable. :) So, yes, I guess he is needing help with both content and accuracy. But, without watching the videos myself, I'm not confident in helping him with the content.

 

I'm not opposed to teaching the lessons, though I would have been thrilled if the DVDs had worked out! But, I really don't want to teach Saxon. Saxon doesn't really click for me! If I'm going to teach, I much prefer the organization and explanations provided in CLE. Or, perhaps Lial. And as I think this through, I think my suspicion is that Saxon may not be a good fit for my ds either. Honestly, I don't know--I just feel too far removed from the process to know for sure.

 

You and the others who have mentioned correcting errors the next day are absolutely right! We did that last year, but since reading that Mr. Reed doesn't emphasize homework, I haven't been diligent about enforcing that. That will change immediately! Thanks for everyone's thoughts!

[KarenNC]

Well, let me think this through. He did test into Saxon 87 pretty solidly. He's just finished lesson 30, and he's been making mostly 80% on his tests--generally one or two of the mistakes are careless in nature. I'd feel better if he brought that average up a bit. He also sometimes requests help on one or two problems from the practice set. Since I haven't watched the DVD, I feel like I'm stumbling a bit when I try to help. Which is a bit uncomfortable. :) So, yes, I guess he is needing help with both content and accuracy. But, without watching the videos myself, I'm not confident in helping him with the content.

 

I'm not opposed to teaching the lessons, though I would have been thrilled if the DVDs had worked out! But, I really don't want to teach Saxon. Saxon doesn't really click for me! If I'm going to teach, I much prefer the organization and explanations provided in CLE. Or, perhaps Lial. And as I think this through, I think my suspicion is that Saxon may not be a good fit for my ds either. Honestly, I don't know--I just feel too far removed from the process to know for sure.

 

You and the others who have mentioned correcting errors the next day are absolutely right! We did that last year, but since reading that Mr. Reed doesn't emphasize homework, I haven't been diligent about enforcing that. That will change immediately! Thanks for everyone's thoughts!

 

I can see that. Singapore was somewhat that way for us. It was a horrible fit for my daughter and I sometimes had trouble understanding how they were teaching something. I didn't even attempt Miquon, as I simply couldn't wrap my brain around the way it was supposed to work, so I gave it away. Life's too short to hate your math program;).

 

I did a phone consultation with Mr. Reed last year and got the same message about homework (the kid needs to do it, but he doesn't grade it). I have decided that perhaps I didn't interpret it the way it was intended (or at least the way it works best for us ;)). I've taken it as not to grade the homework (and, in our case, then be disapproving when the score is not where I would like it to be) because it's practice, but that it's important that it be done nightly and it's okay to let them check the accuracy of their homework. Now, I haven't called to recheck this interpretation, but it works for us. I can't really see the point of practicing something incorrectly or sloppily, so we just go over the answers, no judgment about how well or poorly she did it, and she goes back to correct the mistakes. It has really taken a lot of the pressure and struggle off. I've offered to let her just check it herself, but she likes to do it with me at this point.

 

BTW, Mr. Reed also said that as long as the child is getting 80% or better on the tests, he's where he should be---it's when it drops below 80 that there's an issue and you should go back to work on the area that was a problem. If they are like the tests we have in the lower level, they are about 5 points a problem, so one or two careless errors can quickly bring down the score. I was advised to grade tests very strictly---no partial credit, if the kid leaves off the units it's wrong (one of my daughter's big areas of carelessness), etc.

 

I don't know if 8/7 includes the daily timed practice portions on math facts or not. We use xtramath.com to work on mastery of basic operations, since I realized that was a portion of the issue for "careless" errors. She didn't really know her math facts down cold quickly as well as I thought she did.

[Tiramisu]

NJKelli, thanks for your insight! May I ask what you switched to after Saxon 87? And how did it work? We have loved CLE and this time I'm using it for my youngest from the very beginning. :thumbup1:

 

Dd did Math U See Pre-Algebra, which she finished in about three months. I was new at homeschooling and didn't really know about many options. Math U See was such a breeze after Saxon, two and a half hour lessons to 10 minute lessons. It was a bit under-challenging and not very thorough. I think dd had some gaps because of Math U See Pre-Algebra's different scope and sequence.

 

Then she did Foerster's Algebra 1, TT Geometry and Alg. 2, and now TT Pre-Calc. We turned to TT when we ran into a string of medical issues and I needed a program with lectures that would be sure to get done even if I couldn't help much.

 

I think even if you're going to switch around you're safe with CLE because it's so very thorough.

[Hedgehog]

JMO.. I've watched a few of Art Reed's lessons, and I found he went really quick and I was scrabbling to keep up. We thought the DIVE CDs were more understandable.

[ssexton]

Thanks so much for all of your help!! I think we'll go back to CLE--it's what I know, and I know they do well with it. I appreciate the other resources listed--I think we'll supplement with Alcumus and some story problems from Lial. And, we'll be using videos from AoPS and Khan as needed.

 

Hedgehog, thanks for sharing your your thoughts on the Art Reed DVDs. Glad to know it's not just us! I really wanted these to work for us.

 

Karen--loved your quote, "Life's too short to hate your math program." So true!!!!!

 

3byzaz, I appreciate the heads up on CLE 700 being tough! We'll be careful not to move through too fast.

 

Thanks again!

[Trish]

Wej're liking Horizons pre-algebra. The lessons are short enough that you could have him do two per day and finish the book this year.

[ssexton]

Thanks, Trish!! I'll keep that in mind!

 

I.Love.Lucy--I sent you a pm, but your box is full! :D

[Guest]

Teaching Textbooks is another option. My two made it through half of CLE 500 and placed in the Pre-Alg. I have to say, out of all the math programs we have tried and that is just about all of them, CLE is, for us the best choice for clearness of explanations, amount of daily work, and long term success. Just our experience.

[Lori in MS]

Saxon Teacher has really helped my dc. When they miss the problems they watch Saxon teacher for that problem instead of having me teach it. Math has become totally independent.