Latin Prep question...

[Kay in Cal]

We're planning on starting Latin Prep next year, probably about 1/4 the way through the year, as we finish Minimus Secundus. I haven't purchased it yet, though, so I don't have the book to schedule from.

 

My question is: I looked online and found it has 10 chapters... How long does it take to do a chapter--1 week? 2 weeks? We're planning on taking it slow, but we do Latin every day. Some chapters are longer than others. How did your schedule work out?

 

Do you use the workbooks? The puzzle book?

 

Just trying to pencil in my schedule...thanks!

[Patricia in WA]

There was this discussion recently. Read here and if you still have questions I would be happy to answer any.

[Penny]

Latin Prep is difficult. I am using it with two fourth graders and we spend more than a month on each chapter. Actually, sometimes much longer. However, when we finish a chapter my kids really know the grammar and have overlearned both it and the vocabulary. We began in Sept 2007 and we'll be lucky to finish by August 2008.

 

We do all the book exercises and the workbook exercises. I doing chanting and writing of verb conjugations and noun declensions before each lesson. We do Latin Mon through Thurs for about 45 mins.

 

We may be slow, but Latin Prep is not something that can be breezed through unless you really know conjugations and declensions. Some of the translation is quite difficult. Possibly both myself and my kids are slow learners!

 

Blessings!

 

Penny

[Kay in Cal]

Thank you so much! From what everyone says about the variability of difficulty and length... sounds like I'll just schedule "do the next thing!" I'm looking forward to Latin Prep!

[Laura Corin]

I don't recommend using Latin Prep until at least age 9, preferably age 10. The first chapter looks easy in the online sample, but the difficulty ramps up fast. My very bright 11yo, Calvin, finds Latin Prep 3 very, very tough - I definitely would not want a younger child attempting it. I asked Calvin about the idea of a 7/8 year old starting Latin Prep and he squeaked, 'What??!!'

 

I've heard good things about Lively Latin for that age group, but haven't used it myself.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[StephanieZ]

I don't recommend using Latin Prep until at least age 9, preferably age 10. The first chapter looks easy in the online sample, but the difficulty ramps up fast. My very bright 11yo, Calvin, finds Latin Prep 3 very, very tough - I definitely would not want a younger child attempting it. I asked Calvin about the idea of a 7/8 year old starting Latin Prep and he squeaked, 'What??!!'

 

I've heard good things about Lively Latin for that age group, but haven't used it myself.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

 

Ditto. . . No, no, no. :tongue_smilie: IMHO, there's no way LP would work for a 6/7yo unless they are a true prodigy. The child needs to be working at at least a 3rd/4th grade formal grammar level before starting LP. You'll only be buying frustration if you try this next year. My dc are advanced/etc and started it at 8 1/2 and 11. It's perfect for my 11yo and a real stretch for my also-very-bright 8 1/2 yo (who also had already completed Prima Latina, studied spanish, etc.) It is just too grammar intensive for a tiny child. This program is designed to be rigorous for 6th-8th graders. . .

 

To answer your question :) a level is designed for one school year. Doing Latin daily for abt 20 min each day, we are going at a pace of about 3-4 weeks per chapter. So, about 30-40 weeks for 10 chapters. . .

 

If you decide to do LP anyway with your 7 yo, make sure to post back here a few chapters in to tell me I was wrong!! I love to be wrong, b/c that's how I learn!

[Jenny in Atl]

 

What a face looks like while translating English to Latin via LP.

[Patricia in WA]

I did not even notice what age you were trying to use this with. I have to completely agree with Laura (and the others). I waited to start LP with my second child until he was 9 and he is pretty bright. He could have done it last year but with alot more help from me. This year he is doing very well with it. He did LfC A last year and memorized a lot of vocabulary so that is not bogging him down this year. I have used both Minimus and Secundus and I would say neither would prepare a 7 year old for the rigors of LP. I really would look into LfC or Lively Latin. LP will be better used when the child is a little older and has a solid grasp of English grammar.

 

We are not trying to discourage you; just warn you that this may not be a good fit right now.

 

HTHs,

[Laura Corin]

 

What a face looks like while translating English to Latin via LP.

 

LOLOLOLOL!

 

Laura

[Kay in Cal]

"Ditto. . . No, no, no. :tongue_smilie: IMHO, there's no way LP would work for a 6/7yo unless they are a true prodigy. The child needs to be working at at least a 3rd/4th grade formal grammar level before starting LP. You'll only be buying frustration if you try this next year. My dc are advanced/etc and started it at 8 1/2 and 11. It's perfect for my 11yo and a real stretch for my also-very-bright 8 1/2 yo (who also had already completed Prima Latina, studied spanish, etc.) It is just too grammar intensive for a tiny child. This program is designed to be rigorous for 6th-8th graders. . ."

 

Well, he'll be finished with GWG3 this year, starting GWG4 next year. We've finished Prima Latina and Latina Christiana 1 in K--then (because I was looking for a time filler so we wouldn't go too fast) we did Minimus and Secundus this year. I don't teach Latin around here (thankfully) my dh had 8 years of Latin in school. I think he's done a good job injecting more grammar into Minimus (ds still knows the basic declensions/conjugations he learned in LC1, and they spend time looking at the grammar beyond what Minumus gives you). So that was my reasoning.

 

So... do you think that PL, LC1, Minumus and Secundus are enough prep for Latin Prep? I know it's hard to let the age thing go--trust me, I know--he'll still be 6 until December, not 7. He isn't a "prodigy", but he is profoundly gifted, to use the diagnostic term.

 

I wanted something that would follow up LC1, really, but wasn't so... boring... We're aiming for Cambridge. I've checked out Lively Latin a bit, but the sample lessons have a lot of review--the grammar in particular. OK, some more thought. Maybe we could do Lively Latin and then follow it with Latin Prep. Just feels like we are spinning our wheels... if we go with Lively Latin it would be our 3rd "beginning Latin" program, Latin Prep would then be the 4th. We seem to be covering the same ground over and over, in different formats. Next year we will be doing the MP study of "Famous Men of Rome", so we won't use that part of the Lively Latin either.

 

Still listening here... what do you think?

[Jenny in Atl]

My dd7, sounds a like yours. She has about finished GWG 3, and is doing a good bit of 4th grade work already, but no she is not ready for LP. I have been using Lively Latin with her and we are very pleased. I plan to add Mininus Secundus to LL next year. I will follow LL with LP when she is in 4th. With in the first weeks you are translating whole passages. Dd12 and I are on chapter 7 and just now are we getting rather swift at finishing some of these.

LP at times makes my head hurt and I'm 42! :tongue_smilie:

 

You might want to look at the LL bk 2 that has come out, if you think LL 1 will be too much of a review. I just feel at this age, you can never have too much review, but you don't want to make it so challenging that they loose interest.

[Mama Lynx]

Although I agree with the others here, OTOH you could always try it and see how it goes. At worst, it will be too hard, and you'll have to quit. At best, your DH will be able to modify and take it slowly enough to make it work. You know your child best.

 

You could also look at Lingua Latina. Again, after chapter 3 that will ramp up in difficulty too, but there are ways of modifying it.

 

I'm not familiar with GWG 3. What does it cover? Can your son parse a sentence containing a direct object? How far has he gone in English grammar? That, I think, would be the key. If my kids are going to stumble, it's always over the grammar, not the vocab or the comprehension.

 

It's a balancing act. We know the curriculum, but you know your child ... and somewhere in the middle is the right answer ;-)

[Kay in Cal]

Lol! Now I'm really torn! He does know all the parts of speech, direct objects, can tell you 1st/2nd/3rd person, etc. But I know he's young!

 

I asked ds to chime in, and we looked at samples of both--from the second half. He says he thinks he'd prefer to do Latin Prep. I explained that it will be much harder, that most of the kids taking it are much older than him, and that the memorization will be more challenging and require more work. He gave me the "come on, Mom" look, and insisted he's up for it.

 

Since ds wants to go for it, I think we'll try Latin Prep after Secundus is done (it may overlap a week or two into 2nd grade, which we start in August). If it's just way too hard, we'll quit and try Lively Latin... at least I'll have a "fall-back".

[StephanieZ]

If money isn't a big hurdle, why don't you just buy LP1 (with all the workbooks, etc.) and look it over (or your husband can do so.) If you decide he isn't ready, you can either hold on to it until he is, or you can re-sell it at a probably very small loss. I think the teacher should do at least the first three chapters on their own (that's how far I've gotten so far and it does get meatier each chapter) and then decide if it might be a good fit for the child.

 

Another considersation: There is a lot of writing in the program. In each chapter, in addition to the typical 5-20 phrases/sentences to translate each exercise (there are maybe 15 exercises in each chapter; we do about one each day), there are also about two longer (15-30 +/- long sentence) translations.

 

I type these up (after mastering latin accents on the computer, something of a trick) and print them out double spaced so my dc can translate right on the page w/o having to write soooo much and have the risk of mis-copying. In fact, I do this with a couple of the longer translation exercises in most chapters as well (generally the English-to-Latin ones but not the Latin-to-English ones b/c I figure it is good memory help to copy the Latin).

 

My 11yodd wouldn't have a problem with the extra writing, but it would give my 8yods heartburn and me a headache listening to him whine, so I do this as a shortcut for them. It is not a problem for me, as I am pretty good with Word and I am doing LP one chapter ahead of them anyway, so I just keep an eye on my lessons and if I see one that is writing intensive, I type it up. So, before the kids start on a chapter, I have any needed pre-typing done and printed ready-to-go.

 

I also type up study notes for each chapter, with vocab list, conjugations/declensions/definitions. I hand it out at the beginning of the chapter and at the end of the chapter, I edit it a bit to make up "review sheets" / practice tests for them to make help make sure they have the vocab, etc, down before the Chapter "Gate" that I give that has all that stuff, plus a few representative problems/exercises. They have to get a 90% on it to move on to the next chapter. I also type up flashcards for each chapter, and add the new chapter's cards to the stack when we start a new chapter. (They do the flash cards daily.) So, anyhow, if/when your dh uses LP with your youngster, I hope these ideas are helpful in modifying it for him.

 

In trying to assess your situation, I looked on the Hoagie's site for a definition of "profoundly gifted." As you state your son is one of these 1:1,000,000 kids, I can only guess that "all bets are off" with educating your son. Having a borderline Highly/Exceptionally gifted IQ myself and knowing my dh is at least as smart as I am and observing my kids abilities, I'd estimate their IQs to be in the Highly/Exceptionally gifted range, as they seem comparably capable to me and my dh, although they are exploring many more aspects of their abilities than we did as they are getting a superior education (!!). Anyhow, I feel that I can flex the various commercially available curricula to meet my kids need, at least so far. I don't feel rudderless, as I imagine I might if my child was in the Profound range.

 

I can't imagine the challenges of raising a Profoundly Gifted kid. IMHO, I do think prodigy is applicable to that sort of IQ, as it is at the very top of the measured scale. So, anyway, I think you'll have to experiment to find the best matches for your child and likely will want to adapt programs to meet his abilities, as most gifted kids are at very different levels in different areas (e.g., simultaneous 12th grade reading comprehension; 8th grade verbal expresssion; 3rd grade composition ability; K hand-eye coordination or hand stamina. . .) Those varied abililties are what makes it hard to choose a program and imperative to customize his education. As confident as I am about my abilities to judge what my dc need, I imagine I would consider developing a relationship with a true Gifted Kid guru (probably start looking at Yale's child dev. center or maybe JHU's CTY) for a long-term advising relationship re: curricula choices, programs, etc. Maybe meet every 6 months for an interview and to discuss/consult on options. I'd think it's be reasonably easy to get that relationship going with such a rare kid, as the real experts would enjoy and appreciate the rare opportunity to work closely and know your child.

 

From Hoagies:

LevelIQ RangePrevalenceMildly (or basically) Gifted 115 - 1291:6 - 1:44Moderately Gifted 130 - 1441:44 - 1:1,000Highly Gifted 145 - 1591:1,000 - 1:10,000Exceptionally Gifted 160 - 1791:10,000 - 1:1 millionProfoundly Gifted 180+Fewer than 1:1 million

 

One thought I have is to simply study a second, third, or fourth language. By doing that, you could pick programs that would be simpler to implement (Rosetta Stone, etc.) and still be stretching his brain. Latin could go into coasting mode for a year or two. (Does he really need to translate Virgil by 10 yo?) Also, you could spend more time on history, science, etc which are content areas as opposed to skill areas, so you can go 4 hours a day and never run out of things to learn *at an age/skill appropriate level*

 

Another thought. . . my dc study instruments for many reasons, but a not insignificant one is that it constructively occupies their minds/bodies for an hour each day (per instrument; my 11yodd does two and spends 2 hrs a day. . . plus lessons. . .) -- stretching their talents in new ways w/o accelerating exceedingly rapidly in core areas. Also, I think highly gifted people are more in need of ways to relax and focus their minds and bodies than most people, so the creativity of music is a special blessing.

 

Good luck! What an interesting journey you are on!

[Kay in Cal]

In trying to assess your situation, I looked on the Hoagie's site for a definition of "profoundly gifted." As you state your son is one of these 1:1,000,000 kids, I can only guess that "all bets are off" with educating your son. Having a borderline Highly/Exceptionally gifted IQ myself and knowing my dh is at least as smart as I am and observing my kids abilities, I'd estimate their IQs to be in the Highly/Exceptionally gifted range, as they seem comparably capable to me and my dh, although they are exploring many more aspects of their abilities than we did as they are getting a superior education (!!). Anyhow, I feel that I can flex the various commercially available curricula to meet my kids need, at least so far. I don't feel rudderless, as I imagine I might if my child was in the Profound range.

 

I can't imagine the challenges of raising a Profoundly Gifted kid. IMHO, I do think prodigy is applicable to that sort of IQ, as it is at the very top of the measured scale. So, anyway, I think you'll have to experiment to find the best matches for your child and likely will want to adapt programs to meet his abilities, as most gifted kids are at very different levels in different areas (e.g., simultaneous 12th grade reading comprehension; 8th grade verbal expresssion; 3rd grade composition ability; K hand-eye coordination or hand stamina. . .) Those varied abililties are what makes it hard to choose a program and imperative to customize his education. As confident as I am about my abilities to judge what my dc need, I imagine I would consider developing a relationship with a true Gifted Kid guru (probably start looking at Yale's child dev. center or maybe JHU's CTY) for a long-term advising relationship re: curricula choices, programs, etc. Maybe meet every 6 months for an interview and to discuss/consult on options. I'd think it's be reasonably easy to get that relationship going with such a rare kid, as the real experts would enjoy and appreciate the rare opportunity to work closely and know your child.

 

From Hoagies:

LevelIQ RangePrevalenceMildly (or basically) Gifted 115 - 1291:6 - 1:44Moderately Gifted 130 - 1441:44 - 1:1,000Highly Gifted 145 - 1591:1,000 - 1:10,000Exceptionally Gifted 160 - 1791:10,000 - 1:1 millionProfoundly Gifted 180+Fewer than 1:1 million

 

 

Well, it's interesting around here, to say the least. Ds is one of those kids that (to paraphrase the book King Dork, which I'm listening to on CD) he's "so smart people sometimes think he's developmentally disabled". Usually other kids, in point of fact.

 

We've considered programs like the Davidson Young Scholars, but for now we don't want to put so much emphasis on his "giftedness". We've also considered going out to GDC in Denver, even had the phone assessment, but it's just so expensive--$2500 or so plus travel! EPGY has been an awesome curriculum resource, though, particularly since it is self-paced.

 

One aside--even though a standard bell curve would indicated that PG kids are that rare, most studies show that they occur with much more frequently than the models would indicated. There's some info on this on the GDC site. So, regardless of what the curve would predict, I'd guess there are far more than 20 PG kids here in Los Angeles alone...

 

Thanks for your support. I talked to dh about it, since he's the primary teacher, and after looking at the scope and sequence for both, he really thinks ds is ready for Latin Prep. I think they are both a bit tired of spinning their wheels.

 

Now, if I could just find a really good chemistry curriculum, ds would be over the moon. We have conversations like this:

Ds: "Mom, is xyz element a member of the lanthanide group?"

Me: "I have no idea."

Him: Pause. "You're just saying that because you want me to look it up for myself."

Me: "No, honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about."

Him: "Ha ha, mom, you are soooo funny." He goes in search of a book.

[Patricia in WA]

I light of all that info......I think he will be just fine. Take it slow and don't be afraid to do the work orally if all the copying and writing gets to be too much. I do like Stephanie's suggestions though. Mine each do at least one instrument (DD12 studies 3) for the same reasons. Keep them relaxed and busy on things other than "book learning".

 

HTHs,

[Mama Lynx]

FYI, Kay, we do most of our Latin Prep orally. I am having mine do written narrations for Lingua Latina. My kids do the Latin Prep workbook in writing, but we generally do all of the textbook exercises orally.

[Laura Corin]

He isn't a "prodigy", but he is profoundly gifted, to use the diagnostic term.

 

 

This is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

Laura

[Susan in SoCal]

Shoot, Kay,

I think you should go ahead and try it. The worse that's gonna happen is that you're going to shelve it for a couple or more months. But I bet, if you take it slow enough or just at son's rate of mastery (which might not even be slow!), you'll be just fine. You can do most/all of the work orally. I do have my son write out the English to Latin translations (forces him to slow down & think more meticulously). Of course, the workbooks add extra practice.

 

And, of course, there are ways to "float" and stay at the same level without getting into "deeper waters" before your son is able to swim in them. I'd recommend a combo of LPrep, Lingua Latina, and supplementing with Latin Book One (available free online, about the same difficulty level as LPrep, might be a good way to provide more grammar exercise, and it has FABULOUS translations of myths in it for reading practice). When you hit a sticking point in one, switch to another til you hit a sticking point there ... etc.

 

Just ideas...