Anyone outline SOTW?

[HollyinNNV]

I already owned the Kingfisher Encyclopedia (Red). I looked through it today and cannot imagine asking my ds to outline it. I think it is too difficult in many cases. Some of the information is just plain esoteric in other cases. So, now I'm wondering if we might just outline SOTW. Has anybody done this successfully?

TIA

[redsquirrel]

well, if you are following TWTM, she doesn't call for outlining Kingfisher or any of the encyclopedias. She says to use the encyclopedia for two things:

#1. the student makes a list of 5 or 6 facts that they find most interesting

#2 they use the dates in the encyclopedia for their timeline.

 

They are supposed to go to the library and chose a book about one of the things they found interesting. They use that book for both narration and outline.

 

I did it a little differently. I did use an encyclopedia for 6 facts etc. Those are to be written in complete sentences. Then, I assigned reading from a book. That was different than sending him to the library. I did that because we don't really have time to get to the library every single week. I used a variety of sources that were made for his age group.

 

If he read whole chapter in a history book, I would ask for a narration of a subchapter one day. You are looking for a 5-7 sentence narration. Then, on the third history day, I would ask for an outline of a different subchapter. For outlining, you are looking for sections of about 250 words. About 6 or 7 paragraphs. It isn't supposed to be HUGE. This went best when I sat with my son and had him read each paragraph outloud and tell me what he was going to write. After a few months, I didn't have to sit with him. He could do it on his own.

 

This is all laid out in TWTM in the logic chapter on history.

 

SWB has said that SOTW 1 and 2 are too narrative for proper outlining and not to use them for that purpose. Three is possible. By book four it should be fine.

[HollyinNNV]

Aargh! I just reread that section of the WTM and you are right, right, right! I guess I just have "summer brain.":001_huh:

 

Hmm. I don't even know if I like Kingfisher for the purposes of timeline and fact-writing. I hated reading it myself.:glare: I don't like the itsy-bitsy factoids and strange esoteric people and the page makes my eyes scroll around like I have ADD. Plus, I think the book assumes that kids know more than they might know-background knowledge essential to understanding the meaning of the factoids.

 

Double-hmm-So each time we write an outline from this "other source" (not the spine encyclopedia) the difficulty of the source will change in reading difficulty and format of the page. That will complicate the whole process of learning to outline. Not sure I like this either.:confused:

Holly

[redsquirrel]

I haven't found it difficult. What time period are you doing this year?

 

then again, I don't really get bothered by page layout or worry much about reading level. I just pick a middle school source and it's all been fine. All they have to do is read it. My son has become quite independent in his history study. He easily picked up on the routine and took responsibility for it. It was actually very nice to see it happen.

 

I read him the pages from TWTM about outlining at the begining of the year. He seemed to understand. It took about 10 mins. Then I had him read a paragraph out loud and I asked him "what is the main idea of that paragraph." It doesn't matter so much what they answer, just that it makes some sense. Last year, he was a 5th grader so I only needed a 1 point outline. I only had him do maybe 6 or 7 paragraphs.

 

Next year he will be a 6th grader so we will be moving up to a 2 point outline. Again, I plan on doing it orally with him for a few weeks until he seems to have it down.

 

You might try purchasing SWB audio download "A plan for teaching writing: the middle years" It is a very good discussion of the goals in each year.

[mcconnellboys]

I've had my son outline from SOTW for the past 3 years (logic stage). We choose the non-fiction parts, so he doesn't attempt to outline any of the "stories" within the book, just the factual sections.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm pretty sure that the first edition of WTM called for outlining the old white Kingfisher. It lends itself to teaching outlining very well.

 

We did use SOTW for outlining as well, once DD was good at doing it with Kingfisher.

[redsquirrel]

I'm pretty sure that the first edition of WTM called for outlining the old white Kingfisher. It lends itself to teaching outlining very well.

 

We did use SOTW for outlining as well, once DD was good at doing it with Kingfisher.

 

Yes, it did call for outlining the encyclopedias then. That was before they kept going OOP, etc.

[Carol in Cal.]

Yes, it did call for outlining the encyclopedias then. That was before they kept going OOP, etc.

 

But it is pretty easy now to find the old white Kingfisher used for a reasonable price. It's not up around $300 anymore, LOL!

 

And I don't know of any other book that is easier to teach outlining from.

[Mallory]

I've had my son outline from SOTW for the past 3 years (logic stage). We choose the non-fiction parts, so he doesn't attempt to outline any of the "stories" within the book, just the factual sections.

 

 

:iagree: Since we weren't going to outline every section anyway, I also found SOTW 1 okay for outlining (or at least better then the red KF encyc.)

 

I posted similar to this a few months ago- http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232828&highlight=outline

[HollyinNNV]

I haven't found it difficult. What time period are you doing this year?

We are studying Middle Ages.

I don't really get bothered by page layout or worry much about reading level.

 

I taught writing for years in a co-op and almost every time kids had problems in the outlining stage (IEW) it was because the source was too difficult for them. Usually this was because of the reading level. However, sometimes it was because of a confusing page format.

My son has become quite independent in his history study. He easily picked up on the routine and took responsibility for it. It was actually very nice to see it happen.

That's awesome. Unfortunately, i know my son will not find this easy.:)

Next year he will be a 6th grader so we will be moving up to a 2 point outline. Again, I plan on doing it orally with him for a few weeks until he seems to have it down.

Yes, we will do it orally as well.

You might try purchasing SWB audio download "A plan for teaching writing: the middle years" It is a very good discussion of the goals in each year.

Thanks, I might just do that!:001_smile:

[HollyinNNV]

I've had my son outline from SOTW for the past 3 years (logic stage). We choose the non-fiction parts, so he doesn't attempt to outline any of the "stories" within the book, just the factual sections.

 

Thanks, Regena.

[HollyinNNV]

I'm pretty sure that the first edition of WTM called for outlining the old white Kingfisher. It lends itself to teaching outlining very well.

 

We did use SOTW for outlining as well, once DD was good at doing it with Kingfisher.

 

OK-So I'm not going totally crazy.:lol: I've been around since the "old board" so I probably got it fixed in my mind that Kingfisher is for outlining. I wish I knew the exact differences between the white and red Kingfisher, because I really despise the red. I have a hard time thinking that an older version could be that much better.:tongue_smilie:

[HollyinNNV]

I posted similar to this a few months ago- http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232828&highlight=outline

 

Thanks for the link, Mallory!

[Carol in Cal.]

OK-So I'm not going totally crazy.:lol: I've been around since the "old board" so I probably got it fixed in my mind that Kingfisher is for outlining. I wish I knew the exact differences between the white and red Kingfisher, because I really despise the red. I have a hard time thinking that an older version could be that much better.:tongue_smilie:

 

I have them both. I actually think it IS that much better.

[HollyinNNV]

I have them both. I actually think it IS that much better.

 

I am looking for samples online. If anyone finds sample pages of the old white Kingfisher, I would so greatly appreciate a link.

 

I may just have to take your word for it, Carol.:)

Holly

[Jyniffrec]

:bigear: Does anyone have a link to the old one on amazon, with or without picture?

[mcconnellboys]

They compressed the text in the newer, red edition, so it's already written almost in an outline form, as is. In order to try to outline it, you'd end up copying practically every sentence they have written there. The older, white edition, was written in paragraph form as a narrative.

[aelgraham]

We also started off trying to outline the red Kingfisher book-- it didn't make sense at all. Then I read the revised WTM and went with the 'list of facts'. Because we went with this method, I felt more confident switching to the more difficult spine, "National Geographic Almanac of World History." It is challenging reading but is written in an essay form without all the distracting sidebars and illustrations. In 6th grade it would be difficult outlining material, but maybe in 7th or 8th.

 

We outline from SOTW and other sources. I have found that I still need to coach my DS12 through outlining. I can't just say, "read this and do an outline." I'm still working with him most of the time to put his thoughts together into good main point statements. He's pretty good at identifying the sub-points after that.

 

I'd also love to see a link to the old white Kingfisher book if anyone has it!

 

Amy

[missmoe]

I have both versions of The Kingfisher Encyclopedia and the white is soooo much better. Just much more meater!

 

I've found the National Geographic Almanac of World History to be great for outlining. Actually I think it is far better than the white Kingfisher encyclopedia.

[TheAutumnOak]

OK-So I'm not going totally crazy.:lol: I've been around since the "old board" so I probably got it fixed in my mind that Kingfisher is for outlining. I wish I knew the exact differences between the white and red Kingfisher, because I really despise the red. I have a hard time thinking that an older version could be that much better.:tongue_smilie:

 

It sounds crazy but it is better...I got mine used on Amazon for about $25...I would usually not buy an out of date encyclopedia, but this one is so much easier for my son to use than the new red one...I will get the red one when we get to modern times, when the newer info matters...He will also be older then, so it should be fine...Honestly, if I didn't get the old white one, I would have used the Usborne one instead of the new red Kingfisher...

 

If you want one, you had better jump on it now...They are up to $35 used after shipping on Amazon now...

[Mary in MN]

My son used the red without problem--he liked that it was compressed and to the point. HO worked methodically through how to outline, and at first it really did almost seem like the whole paragraph was written out in outline form. But once he got the hang of it, he was producing detailed outlines that weren't just line-for-line rehashes.

 

Anyway, if you know your son is going to have difficulty outlining, why NOT go with the simpler text? Once they figure out HOW to outline, it's easier to outline meatier stuff.