s/o - Can anyone compare Russian Math 6 to other prealgebras?

[wapiti]

I've gotten some helpful info from a few of you about Russian Math 6 in bits and pieces along the way, and I'm still intrigued, though I haven't bought it just yet. I have longed to ask this question: can anyone compare Russian Math 6 to other prealgebras, such as Lial's Prealgebra, Horizons, or any other prealgebra for that matter :D? This would be for following SM 6 or MM 6. I have a feeling there just aren't that many who have used it. Implicit in my question is that Russian Math 6 is adequate for prealgebra; feel free to challenge that assumption if necessary.

 

:)

 

(for lurkers, I'm asking about this http://www.perpendicularpress.com/math6.html)

[PeterPan]

Well just for fun, I'll tell you that I just ordered it. Dd is plodding along through MM6, so one of these days (please, someday, please!) we'll be done and move on. We've done part of the Dolciani pre-algebra I have lying around. The RM samples look so non-traditional, I'm not sure it's exactly equivalent. But I really don't know. My guess is that any student who can DO the RM6 will have no problem in algebra, simply because their thought process will be there, kwim? After all, Algebra 1 starts at the beginning anyway. So it's more a readiness game than anything.

 

So either way, either because it's inherently great or because it gives time for development, I think it will be fine. Can't really beat that $18 for the ebook version right now. At that price we can afford to do RM and Dolciani and Fred and MM7 and... :)

[wapiti]

:lol: I'm sorry, didn't mean to cause you to spend! I've been holding out in the hope that they come out with the second edition before I need it (which will probably be one year from now; dd is sailing through MM 5B and we expect she'll start 6A in August - I think she's finally noticed the level designations and set her own goal of finishing by the end of the summer, which turns out to be very realistic. I don't know why though, LOL - for some reason I thought it would take much longer.). However, this time last year they thought the second edition would be done by fall, then spring, etc., and last time I emailed them they never responded :tongue_smilie:. I might as well just order it already. I have a used Lials Prealg. that I'd like to compare it to, along with some other random used texts.

 

I don't even know what should be on my list. Guess I should go search for prealgebra threads.

 

My sense is that AOPS will not be her style, so that's not on my list. Maybe I shouldn't be selling her short, I don't know. We'll see what the others have to say about it this fall.

 

So let me know what you think about RM when you get it :D (don't they know how many more they'd sell if it was downloadable, i.e., instant gratification, rather than waiting for the mail??)

 

and thanks for reminding me about the MM7 worksheets - I keep forgetting about them

[jeri]

with my now 9th grader. I used it after SM6 just because it was too early to jump into Algebra. I found RM6 was really solid for two reasons. First, it gives a lot more practice for those SM 5 and 6 problems. You know, the ones where they teach a topic, then there are four problems. The student gets two of the three wrong, but the topic doesn't really baffle him/her. And the problem sets are really good!

 

Second, RM is much more theoretical than SM. So it makes a nice transition between the "pattern" of work in SM and the theory of doing the problems.

 

DS is finishing up 6B in the early fall and he will definitely do RM6 since he's only 11!

 

HTH.

 

jeri

[mcconnellboys]

I really like to have a real book in my hand, but I needed RM this past year, so I gave up and bought the download and I really wasn't sorry. I printed off all the work I thought we could get done in a year and we did. I used the blank backsides of my sheets (I don't own a copier with double page capability and didn't feel like reinserting) as scratch paper for me because I tend to write things as I explain problems to my son.

 

As others have said, there's so much of the thought process in this program that I think it really helps a kid internalize the math concepts very well. I wish I could have gotten my hands on a RM 5 and a RM 7, too (not sure that those even exist).... The explanations of concepts in this book are just excellent, in my opinion....

[PeterPan]

BTW, they email it to you. I don't know if I'll also get a snail mail cd, but I got the pdf's this morning. Well that's not totally true. The first two came through, and the third got bogged down in my isp. But anyways, they send it to you by email, quick gratification. :)

[stripe]

Neat.

[wapiti]

with my now 9th grader. I used it after SM6 just because it was too early to jump into Algebra. I found RM6 was really solid for two reasons. First, it gives a lot more practice for those SM 5 and 6 problems. You know, the ones where they teach a topic, then there are four problems. The student gets two of the three wrong, but the topic doesn't really baffle him/her. And the problem sets are really good!

 

Second, RM is much more theoretical than SM. So it makes a nice transition between the "pattern" of work in SM and the theory of doing the problems.

 

DS is finishing up 6B in the early fall and he will definitely do RM6 since he's only 11!

 

HTH.

 

jeri

 

I really like to have a real book in my hand, but I needed RM this past year, so I gave up and bought the download and I really wasn't sorry. I printed off all the work I thought we could get done in a year and we did. I used the blank backsides of my sheets (I don't own a copier with double page capability and didn't feel like reinserting) as scratch paper for me because I tend to write things as I explain problems to my son.

 

As others have said, there's so much of the thought process in this program that I think it really helps a kid internalize the math concepts very well. I wish I could have gotten my hands on a RM 5 and a RM 7, too (not sure that those even exist).... The explanations of concepts in this book are just excellent, in my opinion....

 

Thanks for your comments -I really appreciate them!!

 

All right already, I'm breaking down and buying it... :D

[mcconnellboys]

I got a CD, too....

[mcconnellboys]

I just noticed that comparisons were not even made, LOL! I did use Saxon with my older son, and Videotext (later), which has a pre-algebra component built into their first module. I think RM6 is a better math program than either.... It continues what Singapore does so well in teaching mathematical reasoning ability. It sets forth clear and concise explanations of how to do the problems and the problems follow that model. So, unlike in some few cases with Singapore, you don't find yourself ever attempting to work a problem that doesn't follow the model of what you've learned.

 

I also like various of Edward Zaccarro's math books, which could also be used for prealgebra into algebra studies. And I like everything I've heard about Life of Fred (but have not personally used it).... Just so you know. Now that you've ordered....

[Capt_Uhura]

Ok you guys have me intrigued. Is the $18 ebook the 1st edition or an early 2nd edition?

 

When is the 2nd edition coming out? I need another math program like I need a ......... Waiting for AoPS Pre-alge.....but for $18...even if it's a 1st edition.....

Edited June 21, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[wapiti]

Just so you know. Now that you've ordered....

 

Thank you - more info is always better :). Feel free to add more later if anything else should come to mind :D.

 

Ok you guys have me intrigued. Is the $18 ebook the 1st edition or an early 2nd edition?

 

When is the 2nd edition coming out? I need another math program like I need a ......... Waiting for AoPS Pre-alge.....but for $18...even if it's a 1st edition.....

 

This is the 1st edition. It's possible to email them to ask about the 2nd edition - they might respond :). They responded to me last fall with "early 2011??", but not when I emailed in April. However, now that I've ordered it finally, I'm sure the second edition will be coming out any day :lol:.

[PeterPan]

What they sent me says copyright 1995 then 2003. I have no clue what edition that translates to. If it was good enough for Regena, it's good enough for me. Oh, and if you want to cackle, imagine dd's HORROR when I told her we were going to do *russian math* next, lol. I was a russian minor, so she thought I meant we were actually going to do math IN RUSSIAN!!! :lol:

 

In all seriousness, you know what else is cool about the pdf thing? We can make it the size that fits our kid and write on the pages!! I guess Regena already said that, but I'm getting sort of excited here. This looks like it would really scratch her itch. As soon as I say that, it won't. In any case, it looks nice. I'm glad I bought.

Edited June 21, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[wapiti]

:lol: that's hilarious!!

 

Copyright © 1995 Drofa Publishers

Copyright © 2003 Perpendicular Press

 

My guess is that the 1995 copyright is for the book written in Russian, and the 2003 copyright is the first translation in English.

[redsquirrel]

imagine dd's HORROR when I told her we were going to do *russian math* next, lol. I was a russian minor, so she thought I meant we were actually going to do math IN RUSSIAN!!!

 

:lol:

 

I cannot imagine the look! OMG!

[Capt_Uhura]

Math in RUSSIAN!!!!!!!!!:lol: Love it! That would certainly change things up, now wouldn't it?

[wapiti]

I just realized that the person who emailed the book to me is the person identified on the cover as the translator.

 

I went back to find some of the posts that sparked my interest in case they might benefit anyone:

 

My 12 yo did the Russian math book from http://www.perpendicularpress.com after SM PM 6B. Although it is called gr 6, it is harder than SM 6. In additon, and I don't know if there are any in the sample, there are problems that give dc a lot of info and ask them to write a problem, without telling the dc what they need to find. ie, the dc decide what they want to find out and then make a problem to solve it using the given data. There are some other good things, too. She has told me more than once that this book was very good. After that, she whipped through LOF Beginning Algebra, and then went onto Foerster's Algebra.

 

I didn't think that NEM would be a good fit for her. Also, when she was 11 she didn't yet have the linguistic parts of math down well enough to move onto Algebra; the Russian math helped with that.

 

 

In her words just now: "They had a lot of intersting and hilarious word problems that helped me understand the math." I suspect that the explanations helped, too, but she can't remember. I don't remember her laughing a lot at the time, so she may be exaggerating on the hilarious part a bit. They also have some different types of things we didn't see in SM.

 

My middle dd is the only one who has done this book so far, and since much of it was review (but harder and presented differently) she did most of it on her own and I checked the work (but not every single assignment.) She had already tested as ready for Algebra, but since she wasn't as strong in all of the fraction rules as I thought she should be and needed the linguistic help, I used it. It was a success. How much of it was the book, how much of it was what she said and how much of it was a developmental change I can't say, but I am sure it was a combination and that she wouldn't have done well in Algebra without that book or something that could have done the same thing coming next.

 

All of my dc have understood negative numbers intuitively. There was only one chapter where it nothing I said could help her do something showing the steps, so she watched one MUS PreAlg lesson (I had bought a used DVD), it clicked with her, and did it Mr. Demme's way, but that is quite typical of my dd. She refused to regroup when she was younger until she saw Mr. Demme do it (we supplemented SM with MUS for her.)

 

http://www.perpendicularpress.com I don't know how it worked, but she had trouble translating math into words and vice versa and it improved enourmously after she did this book. Not that she's perfect at that yet, as she still has room to improve, but it helped a great deal.

 

I would steer clear of TT for a ds this mathy. My highly math eldest found it far too easy. My mathy dc learned their facts just by doing math. You're saying he can't learn the SM way?

 

Here's what I did for my middle dd who definitely learns math her own way. I combined SM along with MUS. You DON'T need to take an entire year per level of MUS, nor do you need to do every exercise, and there is more in Beta than just addition & subtraction, such as shapes & perimeter. If you're doing both, it helps with the variety. Plus, sometimes Mr. Demme convinced dd to do things she was vehemently opposed to such as regrouping. When you get to Gamma you also learn things such as area, etc. We just moved as quickly as we needed to, and I let her move along in SM even as she was still learning math facts. You could try MEP at http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm Her FAVOURITE math program is the Russian math book we bought from Perpendicular Press http://www.perpendicularpress.com (it would come after SM 6, though, but there is a lot of arithmetic in it and some pre-Algebra). She loved it and said it taught her the most, which is the first time she's loved a math book. It forced her to learn the linguistic aspects of math, too, which were tough for her because she's so highly vs.

 

If you get a book to help you master the model method, that could help you a great deal with SM. Many times when my dd was stuck I would help her by drawing those bar diagrams. How I wish I'd known how important they were from the first time they appeared.

 

ETA while I was typing this, someone else also recommended MEP.

 

I like the language of the lessons. I think the way it's written helps clarify things and also to present them in a different way. For my dd that is helpful. I like the challenging word problems (the ones with asterisks) because they are different than the kind she's had with SM/CWP. I like the problems where she is given some information (eg 2 towns are a certain distance apart, one vehicle leaves town A at a certain speed & another leaves the other one at a different speed (each at such and such a time) but the student has to come up with a math problem using the information; mine has to go out of her comfort zone to do this. Dd likes the way the problems are numbered thoughout the book so she can figure out what fraction of the book she's done.

 

The sample didn't show some of the independent learning things, such as the fun one on prime numbers. I bought this book on the recommendation of someone on these forums (who hasn't been here since last fall due to health issues) whose math opinion I respect and whose suggestions have always been particularly helpful to us. She actually gave me the link to Perpendicular Press and a link to Mathematical Circles. I simply chose the less expensive one. I want to get the other one sometime, too, because it doesn't cover all the same things.

 

Mostly, I like my dc to experience math in more than one approach. This dd, after a relatively brief time with Saxon, had done MUS & SM only for several years. The Russian Math is helping her approach some things in a new way and is also presenting some things she hadn't yet done (at least, she'll be getting to those once she's done multiplying fractions. I'm not sure if the sample showed it, but there are also questions relating to the explanations themselves where they basically have to reword what they've learned and this helps a lot with her understanding of what's going on behind the calculations.

 

That said, I can't tell who will like it and who won't. We haven't "known" each other long on this forum, so it's hard to say how close our dc are with good curricula choices.

 

It is a thing of beauty.

 

DD the Elder has a few things going, but she's worked through just over half of Mathematics 6.

 

Here's something I wrote a couple weeks back:

 

This is an excellent choice for a child not ready to move into algebra, or as a transition from Primary Maths to an traditional language and logic based math program. Mathematics 6 has a more "mathy" feel than Singapore in terms of formal language and approach. It is elegant and logical, language based but not wordy. While Singapore excels conceptually, as it progresses through the primary sequence, I occasionally find the "simplified" visual explanations a bit tortured. An example is PM's approach to division by fractions. Compare this to the approach in Mathematics 6, which quickly and without fuss develops a simple proof showing that multiplying by the reciprocal is the same as dividing by a fraction.

 

 

(5/6)x = (2/3)

 

(5/6)/(5/6) x= (2/3) / (5/6)

 

x= (2/3) / (5/6)

 

 

 

(5/6) x = (2/3)

 

(6/5) * (5/6)x = (2/3) * (6/5)

 

x = (2/3) * (6/5)

 

 

 

(2/3) / (5/6) = (2/3) * (6/5)

 

 

 

 

If I had to pick one, I'd choose Mathematics 6 from Perpendicular Press. Why? It has fantastic problem sets and some simple proofs, and is written in relatively formal math language. It's good for anyone, but is ideal for a child coming out of a visual program and transitioning to a more formal one. The sample on the site linked is not one I would have chosen; however, do note the the final questions in each of the sample sections.

 

Apparently I don't know how to do links; it's not working for me now. The Chapter 4 answer key is at .com/ChapterFourKey.pdf

 

I think the book flows effortlessly from Singapore 6. It seems like a real continuum to me of the same sort of mathematical thought. It's working on different topics than we worked on in Singapore, but it reads similarly, the word problems seem even more elegant to me, and the problems are meaty.

[wapiti]

My 4th grade (pre-algebra/algebra ready) daughter is doing Russian Mathematics 6. It sounds like something your son would like. The problems go into more depth than Saxon and non-IP Singapore. RM has better formal math definitions, language, and explanations than both Saxon and Singapore in many cases.

 

There is a small amount of review at the end of each chapter, but nowhere near the levels of review that are in Saxon. There is a B set of problems which are at the end of most sections which are more equivalent in depth to Singapore IP problems and in some cases go into more depth.

 

There are only answers to the first three chapters (no solutions manual) of the book posted on the Perpendicular Press website http://www.perpendicularpress.com/math6.html, but the translator of the book from Russian to English stated that he'd have the rest of the answer key out by the end of the summer. Because of the depth of the problems, it can take awhile to grade the chapters that have no answer key yet. We don't skip any problems, though. We are really enjoying the book.

 

The first edition - what we use, is out of print, though. Now there is a second edition coming out. I don't know the differences, but you can purchase the PDF version of the second edition at the website.

 

You may also consider starting out in NEM 1 from Singapore.

 

Good Luck.:)

 

If you have a younger child, or you aren't in a rush, I highly recommend using Russian Math 6. A lot of the concepts are review of 6A/6B, but they're presented in a different way. RM6 challenges the student to articulate and explain what they know about math. It's stretched our thinking in a new way.

 

It also presents a number of new concepts (like negative numbers) to the student. I found it a very worthwhile way to do math after finishing 6B and it acted as somewhat of a transition for moving into NEM. Dd struggled with NEM before RM6 but now she's flying through it.

 

 

We had the same thing happen and had a great experience with Russian Math 6. It teaches some of the same things that PM6 covers, but it covers them in a different way. It also covers some pre-algebra (like negative numbers) concepts that are not covered in PM6. Russian Math 6 is a great thinking program and offers a different spin on math than SM does. It asks students to justify and explain concepts. I think it's a really great way to spend a few months working and playing with old concepts in new ways and with new concepts. It's a fantastic bridge for younger mathy students who are finished Singapore Math 6B and are not sure where to go next.

 

Dd (12) is now finished NEM 1 and is ready to start NEM2. She wasn't ready for NEM before, but Russian math 6 helped her to move to that level and she had no issues with NEM1.

 

We really enjoyed working through Russian Math 6. Especially since your student is a little on the younger side for finishing 6B. RM6 includes some topics that Sing6A/6B covers, but it does so in a different way, so even review is fun and interesting. RM stretches you to think in a different direction. We found the word problems interesting and challenging. I also like the fact that they put an emphasis on explaining why a concept works. RM includes new topics as well, like negative numbers. I think it's a fantastic pre-algebra book and it is a really good fit for a Singapore-thinking student.

 

www.perpendicularpress.com

 

We're now using NEM.

 

Sarah

.

[wapiti]

For anyone who has used Russian Math 6, can you comment on any practical considerations, such as whether your dc did all the problems, how you scheduled this - I assume you took a whole school year? Did you go lighter in sections your dc was more familiar with?