dyslexia vs executive funtioning weakness?

[rafiki]

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[rafiki]

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[PeterPan]

Michele, that link you gave has the proposed revision for criteria for reading disorders and dyslexia. The proposed changes to the autism criteria are so huge, maybe the same is happening with dyslexia? See to me, if your kid can READ, he's not dyslexic under those criteria, which is just about unhelpful. That doesn't tell you ANYTHING about how his brain is processing information and what's going on. They're redefining it to mean reading disorder.

 

So did you ask your neuropsych about this straight up? Did he say what seems to be the mantra on the boards, that the new trend is to diagnose components and then use the term reading disorder? Is he saying the processing speed diagnosis accounts for the symptoms that we think of as dyslexia? Does he diagnose other children as dyslexic?

 

We've already seen on the boards that there are kids who look and smell alike who turn out to have different diagnoses. For instance I think KarenAnne said her dd was diagnosed with a non-verbal learning disorder, not dyslexia. And yet the symptoms seem similar. So many definitions!

 

Does your oldest, whom you thought would be diagnosed dyslexic and wasn't, have bilaterality issues? With your middle ds, the things you thought were dyslexia basically resolved with the VT?

[rafiki]

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[LizzyBee]

Some sites said it's not even medically diagnosed, the school does it?

 

It can be medically diagnosed by using working brain scans that evaluate the parts of the brain that light up during language tasks, but that is far from routine at this time. It's expensive, and I believe it's primarily available at research hospitals.

[PeterPan]

Ok, now first thing, I'm not quibbling with your neuropsych on the language thing. That makes a lot of sense. We've already had people on here who thought (or even had a diagnosis of) dyslexia who lost it with the VT. And there absolutely are subtleties here that can distinguish kids who, over the internet, sort of sound alike. But to say a dyslexic automatically has low IQ doesn't make sense to me either. That sort of blows in the face of the work of the Eides and all their theories on stealth dyslexia. Further, it just doesn't even MAKE SENSE.

 

So what was the IQ score he got for your oldest? Was it close to your middle? That would have been my next question.

[rafiki]

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[merry gardens]

Ok, now first thing, I'm not quibbling with your neuropsych on the language thing. That makes a lot of sense. We've already had people on here who thought (or even had a diagnosis of) dyslexia who lost it with the VT. And there absolutely are subtleties here that can distinguish kids who, over the internet, sort of sound alike. But to say a dyslexic automatically has low IQ doesn't make sense to me either. That sort of blows in the face of the work of the Eides and all their theories on stealth dyslexia. Further, it just doesn't even MAKE SENSE.

 

So what was the IQ score he got for your oldest? Was it close to your middle? That would have been my next question.

Not neccesarily a low IQ, but to say that a gifted child who went through extensive remediation and who still tests as "average" at reading and spelling seems like something is wrong.

 

What hits me in Michele's original post is that the neuropsych calls her ds gifted, but then he's got an average reading and average spelling score. With all the things that Michele has done, it seems she's managed to remediate the situation adequately enough so that the problems that lead her to seek this evaluation no longer apply. Most people are happy with "average", but should we expect to see merely "average" from a gifted child?

 

Heavy sigh. That's one of the reasons why I have never saught testing for my ds. I'm sure it's dyslexia and I'm teaching accordingly in the hopes that we can resolve some of the struggles. He has (or had) some of the other language problems that this evaluator expects to see in people with dyslexia. We are working hard to remediate these things. He's bright so I fully expect that my son will eventually resolve these issues--at least to the point of "average". We remediated the phonemic awareness problems that he previously had. My son tested well above average on the word analysis portion of standardized tests this year--that's from a child who needed LiPS because he couldn't pass the student screening for Barton.

 

Michele, you've done a great job! You knew there was a problem and you set about to find the solution. You did such a great job that an experience neuropsych doctor that you waited a long time to see can't even detect the problems any longer. You helped bring his scores "up to average" by everything that you have done! Nice work!

Edited May 31, 2011 by merry gardens

[peacefully]

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[cathmom]

I think it's interesting, because the symptoms you listed don't, to me, sound like dyslexia.

 

What do you mean "outside of isolation"? Like, if you say "find a noun" the dc can find one, but otherwise he can't, like with diagramming a sentence? Because my dh could never understand grammar.

 

Dyslexics can have strengths in language areas. For example, while my dd did so abysmally on her "reading nonsense words" subtest that it couldn't be scored, she can repeat nonsense words till the cows come home. She is a great mimic and can imitate accents. With this strength, I hope to be able to get her conversational in Spanish and German, even though she will probably never be able to write in another language. At nearly 15, she seriously struggles with writing (she also has dysgraphia). However, she loves reading and reads a lot, but did not test at grade level in reading even though I thought she would (she just had some areas re-tested to see where she is).

[LizzyBee]

This is all making my head spin. :tongue_smilie:

 

Michele, I've read that a kid can be dyslexic and not be diagnosed with learning disabilities. If the LDs caused by dyslexia are remediated before the testing, they don't show up in testing. Do you think it's possible that's what happened with your son? Perhaps you've remediated him to the point that only the executive dysfunctions show up on the tests.

 

Yllek, I'm curious how you define dyslexia. Your post says that your son has a language processing disorder. Much of the current literature about dyslexia emphasizes that dyslexia is not just a reading disorder; it's a language processing disorder. Do you disagree with that, or do you think your son has a different language processing disorder? I agree with you that not all reading disabilities are caused by dyslexia, and I would go a step further than that and say that in milder cases, dyslexia does not always cause a reading disability.

[merry gardens]

I'm re-reading through "From Talking to Writing" to prepare for working on writing this summer. I just read this and had to post it,

 

"Verbal working memory, attention, and executive functioning work in close relationship to each other...Each ability enhances the other, and a deficit in one abilitiy often impairs the others. In addition, these abilities overlap. For example, attention is critically involved in executive functions, particularly self-monitoring. Attention is also intimately involved in verbal working memory."

 

This book is from the Landmark School Outreach Program. The author and the school specialize in teaching students with "language based learning disabilities, such as dyslexia". (their words).

[peacefully]

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[SonshineMama]

My head is turning around on my shoulders right now from this thread. . . . . . . first can we define executive functioning.. . . . Our neuropsych and SLP define it similarly - the SLP calls it "thinking about thinking". She said she uses my ds' mistake on a standardized test as an example for her students (she is a teacher at a renowned university. Seem our DS is dyslexic and has other issues, he is solidly average, maybe a hair above average in executive function.

 

The example is - choose the 2 things that are alike. Answers: a, c, 3 He chose C and 3 very quickly and confidently. Beacuse he was showing a pattern in this area, they asked for an explanation. He answered "because C is the 3rd letter of the alphabet". This is how she defines "executive brain function"

 

I will admit that my ds is an odd case to even discuss. . . he has had a brain injury and also neurological injury. The majority of his issues seem to come from the neurological injury although none we diagnosed until he sustained a severe concussion (brain injury) last fall. To make things more confusing, I recently stumbled across an article about brain injuries "causing" dyslexia. Shocking to me because I thought it was genetic. It hit me hard when I read that.

 

I truly think that dyslexia will be redefined in the next 50 years. . . or they will just rename it because there are SO many different language issues that are lumped under "dyslexia". As it is, we were told our ds is "phonologically dyslexic" and "visually dyslexic". I am not sure if that is "cutting edge" IRT diagnosis or just the way the neuropsych wanted us to understand that ds needs significant phonological and visual work!

 

To make things more confusing, this was all just verbal. Because our ds referral was made for medical purposes, we can't get an official diagnosis of dyslexia without starting over. . . AND our neuropsych thinks that a lot of children get such great remedial treatment that their disability is "covered up" and they get a false "negative" when being screened for dyslexia. So if someone really did a great job helping their child deal with their dyslexia, it wouldn't show up on testing. Because of this, our neuropsych thinks we need to fall back on our ds' main diagnosis which is OHI (other health impairment). This will allow him the accommodations he will need for testing and any schooling he pursues!

 

I hope I didn't muddle all these things further :tongue_smilie:

It is really fascinating to read all these things. I need to ponder it all!

[LizzyBee]

First of all, I think that your research into matters concerning dyslexia is far broader and more current than mine. When I was teaching, dh went through another round of evaluations in order to document his LD for testing accommodations. Based on what I was learning about LDs in my credential prep courses, talking to dh about his NP profile, and Shaywitz's model of dyslexia, I have always thought that dyslexia was a learning disability in which one's achievements in reading and writing was unexpectedly low when measured against one's intelligence and education; further, this gap correlated strongly with difficulties in phonological processing. So for all these years, I always believed that those two criteria (gap in achievement and phonological processing difficulties) had to be present. If there were strong phonological processing skills, I was under the impression that the evaluator had to look for other issues to explain low achievement in reading/writing, but the condition could not be called dyslexia. :confused: So in this respect, I suppose I do define dyslexia as a type of language processing disorder, but my son's issues really could not be called dyslexia, I don't think.

 

It's interesting, because this distinction is totally borne out in our family. Dh so obviously has phonological processing issues, it is a family joke. He constantly misspeaks in a way that reveals his phonological glitches. The other day he started a comment by saying "case point," when he was trying to use the phrase "case in point." When I pointed it out to him, it was a total revelation to him that there was another word in the phrase.

 

Ds, on the other hand, had very, very high phonological processing and phonemic awareness scores, but before language therapy, his language achievement scores were all over the place. He had VERY high scores in vocabulary, but other tests showed that he was something like 2 years behind in verbal reasoning. He had obvious issues with word retrieval. But now, he is reading books that Scholastic rates as 5th grade level. I've been monitoring his comprehension closely (because his problem is expressive language processing, I have to tease apart what he understands from what he can relate), and he has excellent auditory and reading comprehension. I've always been concerned about his ability to narrate (both SWB and CM styles of narration), but lately, he has been giving excellent narrations. Previously, he would forget mid-letter what word he was writing. Now he's flying through AAS level 2, applying the spelling in 8- to 10-word dictations, and learning new spelling patterns on his own through reading. In other words, this kid is not exhibiting any achievement gaps that I can see, even though 9 months ago, I would have sworn up and down that I had a dyslexic child on my hands.

 

I'll be interested to see where's Michele's ds would test a few months down the line, seeing as how he just finished VT before being evaluated. I'm wondering if Michele might see a surge in test scores as ds starts to really integrate his newfound vision skills with his academic work, or if there is, as is the case with my son, a different type of processing issue that is behind the reading and spelling issues.

 

I'm not sure my research has gelled into a firm understanding of what dyslexia is or isn't. :tongue_smilie: And I think many times, something jumps out at me and I remember it, then later I wonder if I understood the bigger picture of whatever I was reading. It's so confusing, because APD can cause dyslexia, but they're not the same thing; dyslexia causes receptive and expressive language delays, but they're not the same thing. I don't understand any of these things well enough to know how to make sense of the seeming conflicts.

 

Shaywitz definitely emphasizes the phonological deficit type of dyslexia. Other books I've read say that auditory processing problems account for 70-80% of dyslexia (dysphonetic), visual processing problems account for about 20% (dyseidetic), and sometimes they are combined. There's a third type that I can't remember right now. So to some extent, the definition of dyslexia depends on which expert you read and like. :001_smile:

 

Some experts define dyslexia as synonymous with a reading disability. Others say that dyslexia is a broader term than RD, and still others say that RD is a broader term than dyslexia. Personally, I see dyslexia as the more narrow term, referring to specific ways that the brain processes language that is different than "normal". I think that reading disabilities can have causes other than dyslexia. And I've read that highly motivated kids with milder cases of dyslexia can learn to read, but the dyslexia shows up in their spelling and writing; so they may not have a reading disability at all.

 

A speaker at the NC IDA conference said that thanks to the human genome project, we know that dyslexia can involve 7 chromosomes; the more chromosomes that are affected, the longer it takes to remediate. This may also account for the many differences among dyslexics. When my oldest dd had her first asthma attack, we didn't go to the ER because my dh was sure it wasn't an asthma attack. The next morning we went to the ped's office and found out she did have and was still having an asthma attack. Her asthma attacks are different than dh's asthma attacks, so he didn't recognize it as such. This conversation reminds me of that incident. One person's dyslexia doesn't look like another person's dyslexia, but that doesn't make it not dyslexia.

 

My youngest dd at age 7 had no phonemic awareness. At her 2 yr followup with the audiologist, her phonemic awareness was within the normal range. She is still dyslexic, but her phonemic awareness is remediated. My middle dd was never diagnosed with a reading disability because her pa was remediated before she was tested; but both her audiologist and EdPsych recognized that she'd worked very hard to learn to read and that's why her pa was testing in the normal range. If she'd been tested at a younger age, she would have had a pa deficit; she was in the 3rd grade when I realized she couldn't hear the sounds in words, but she wasn't tested until she was 11 yo.

 

I don't think the achievement gap has to be lifelong in order to be dyslexia. I think of dyslexia as a certain way the brain is wired, but the associated LDs can be remediated, at least to some degree. One of the most encouraging things I read early on was from The Everything Parents Guide to Children with Dyslexia by Abigail Marshall. She wrote about a study on high-achieving dyslexics in fields that require large amounts of reading. The average age at which they began to read was 12, yet all of them were good readers.

 

I'm not trying to convince you your son is dyslexic; you are the best judge of that. Based on his achievement at age 6, I'd be inclined to think he's not. I'm just thinking out loud.

Edited June 1, 2011 by LizzyBee

[SonshineMama]

:iagree:

[PeterPan]

Yllek--If you run with this idea of the disappearing diagnosis of dyslexia based on ability to remediate, then it will be interesting to see what happens a few years from now, when you get into more subjects that use language processing (junior high science with lots of terms, foreign languages, etc.). See that's what I'm not understanding is how a narrow diagnosis or analysis of only the *reading* aspect of this captures the rest of what is commonly thought of with dyslexia (problems with foreign languages, rote memory of terms, bilateral physical activities, etc.). Is there some explanation there? Does your SLP hold out hope what she's doing will head those other things off at the pass too?

[peacefully]

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[peacefully]

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[cathmom]

nm

Edited June 2, 2011 by cathmom

[LizzyBee]

This is the definition of dyslexia used by the lady who tested my dd, whom I found through the Barton website:

 

 

 

She then concluded that my dd had dyslexia based on 11 different points.

 

1. Her genetic, developmental and educational histories contain most classic warning signs.

2. Weak basic sound-to-symbol knowledge

3. Extremely weak symbol-to-sound knowledge

4.Difficult memorization of sequential knowledge, like alphabet and math facts, non-automatic, extremely slow writing of entire alphabet

5. Unevenly developed phonological processing and impaired phonological awareness (rapid naming subtest could not be calculated because of too many errors)

6. Word-calling skills more than one year below grade level.

7. Inability to sound out nonsense words (got only 3 of 27 right)

8. Reading fluency and accuracy below grade level

9. On Slingerland Screening test, made 73 errors common to dyslexics. When combined with 22 self-corrections, scored 95. Cut-off for dyslexia is 15.

10. Act of writing meaningful text almost impossible - supremely inferior to oral communication ability.

11. Coexisting dysgraphia.

 

Conclusion: Dyslexia is the only condition that would cause a child with at least average intelligence to have this genetic, developmental and educational background and to make the types and quantity of errors demonstrated.

 

That is a perfect description of my dd when she was tested at age 7. We used an Ed Psych rather than a Barton tester, so dd didn't have the Slingerland Screening test, and she was diagnosed with reading and writing disabilities rather than dyslexia. The psych did include information on dyslexia in our report package, though.

[LizzyBee]

 

Whether anyone would also call ds's issues "dyslexia" is moot; I don't think tests would indicate any kind of learning disability in reading or writing at this point (with the exception of fine motor/motor planning skills).

........

 

I guess what I'm saying, just to get back to the original focus of this thread, is that when so many processes get lumped together with the term "dyslexia," it becomes problematic to use that diagnosis as a tool to plan treatments and remediation. That is why I tend not to like broad symptom lists describing these LDs (although I still read through them, wondering where ds fits in the CAPD subtypes and developmental dyspraxia continuum :tongue_smilie:). It's so loosey-goosey, trying to figure out if EF issues are concomitant with dyslexia, a product of dyslexia, a cause, a completely separate issue...

 

A bit of a side-track, but the dys-add site said:

 

This is what I always think of when people refer to a "visual dyslexia." I thought if vision were the root problem in reading, then by definition, it wasn't dyslexia.

 

Gah. I always go around in circles one this one. :confused::confused::confused:

 

So true -- the labels are moot. The key is to find the therapies and curricula that work.

 

The visual dyslexia thing confuses me too. I've read that visual-based dyslexia is a processing issue, not a vision issue. So tracking and convergence issues would be vision issues, not dyslexia. Anything defined as dyslexia has to do with processing in the brain, not with how the eyes or ears work.

 

So, getting back to EF... The reason this thread caught my attention is because EF seems to be my 15 yo's biggest lingering issue. She is not diagnosed with ADHD, but when I read Understanding Girls with AD/HD, I realized that she probably does have it. Girls often go undiagnosed because the evaluations are geared to the way that boys typically present rather than girls. My dd9's ADHD presents like a typical boy's ADHD would, so she is diagnosed. So anyway, I've always thought my kids' EF issues were related to their ADHD rather than dyslexia. Since my dd15 went back to school this year, she's had to learn to keep track of her due dates, etc, and after the first quarter, she did pretty well. But at home, I still see her floundering. I need to find time to explicitly teach her how to do laundry, cook, etc. I don't want her to leave home not knowing how to do those things. But she doesn't pick them up from observation like many kids do. She also gets easily frustrated and overwhelmed when asked to do something that dh or I think is simple, but she doesn't know where to start. I need to find some kind of a problem solving template for her to use in those situations. Our library has exactly one book on EF dysfunction - Smart But Scattered - so I requested it and I hope it will give me some ideas.

[SonshineMama]

I am reading "when your child has dyslexia". It describes 4 types of dyslexia but I just got to this section this a.m. so I didn't know about it yesterday when I posted :tongue_smilie:

 

*dysphoetic dyslexia (phonological dyslexia)

*dyseiditic dyslexic (visual dyslexia)

*naming speed dyslexia (semantic dyslexia)

*double deficit (phonological and naming speed dyslexia)

 

The visual dyslexia is defined as "difficulty learning to recognize whole words visually, and have trouble deciphering words that do not follow phonetic rules." (this is just a chunk of the definition). It could also be why ds is doing phenomenally at picture me reading http://www.picturemereading.com (using pictographs to memorize all the dolch site words. I believe the concept is that it's very difficult to memorize/overcome small words like to, when, what, where, of. BUT I am certainly no expert. . . . it's so much info to process that I know I mix some of this up sometimes :001_huh:

 

The neuropsych made no connection between his visual processing issues and his dyslexia. . . well, there is a connection but both exasperate the other and neither causes the other, KWIM?

 

I agree labels are mute and it is all about helping them. I do think labels *can be* valid even though in general, I can't stand "labeling" my children.

 

Here is how I explained my opinions to my ds - you are a boy. We call you Luke. Sometimes putting a "label" on what you are struggling with is valid because it helps us figure out how to help you. If I called you boy all the time, that would be difficult when we are in a crowd. . . that is why I call you Luke :)

 

I will admit that not labeling my son may have worked against us :( I waited WAY to long to get help for him and his issues are significant in some areas. SO I am attempting to make a more balanced approach.

 

One thing that I think is important to note is that IRT to learning to read, a label may not be as important as multisensory approach. IRT processing issues, it can be important to get a better feel for everything because then you can help treat it.

[cathmom]

 

The visual dyslexia is defined as "difficulty learning to recognize whole words visually, and have trouble deciphering words that do not follow phonetic rules." (this is just a chunk of the definition). It could also be why ds is doing phenomenally at picture me reading www.picturemereading.com (using pictographs to memorize all the dolch site words. I believe the concept is that it's very difficult to memorize/overcome small words like to, when, what, where, of. ,

 

 

It took my dd years not to confuse "of" and "from."

[cathmom]

That is a perfect description of my dd when she was tested at age 7. We used an Ed Psych rather than a Barton tester, so dd didn't have the Slingerland Screening test, and she was diagnosed with reading and writing disabilities rather than dyslexia. The psych did include information on dyslexia in our report package, though.

 

I forgot to say - my dd was 12 when tested. She could read and but was basically unable to write except for laborious, error-ridden copying.

[PeterPan]

I guess what I'm saying, just to get back to the original focus of this thread, is that when so many processes get lumped together with the term "dyslexia," it becomes problematic to use that diagnosis as a tool to plan treatments and remediation. That is why I tend not to like broad symptom lists describing these LDs (although I still read through them, wondering where ds fits in the CAPD subtypes and developmental dyspraxia continuum :tongue_smilie:). It's so loosey-goosey, trying to figure out if EF issues are concomitant with dyslexia, a product of dyslexia, a cause, a completely separate issue... In our case, several EF behaviors straightened out when ds's vision resolved and he remediated his working memory to age-level. At the same time, symptoms that are associated with dyslexia disappeared: reversing letters, skipping words, substituting similar-looking words, poor handwriting, etc. In fact, with the exception of the symptoms that relate to phonemic awareness, ds had nearly every symptom on the dys-add.com site. Most are either no longer an issue or at least manageable now.

 

A bit of a side-track, but the dys-add site said:

 

This is what I always think of when people refer to a "visual dyslexia." I thought if vision were the root problem in reading, then by definition, it wasn't dyslexia.

 

Gah. I always go around in circles one this one. :confused::confused::confused:

 

Maybe I can go look at the dys-add site later. Those symptoms I bolded, to me, are all visual. There's quite a bit of language processing bizareness with my dd that remains DESPITE years of SWR, AAS, VT, you name it. In fact, I woke up thinking about that this morning. She sings off tune, and so does my dh. They routinely have bizarre little mispronounciations and grammar errors that they really don't hear or give a rip about, even when corrected. It's like it got wired one way, and that's IT, not correctable. And when we were doing VT she had to learn the alphabet. I'm telling you there was something in her brain that fundamentally did not GET the alphabet. I still wonder if she's right, because I'll find these odd placements for books I ask her to put away. (We store our books alphabetically.)

 

On writing, she's a beautiful writer (or at least not wretched), but there's this initiation hump and the way it wears her out. And like dh, she really has to be left ALONE. I think it just takes so much out of her to do the processing of it. And foreign languages, well the vocab doesn't stick and the actual putting of all the pieces together makes steam come out her ears. Now I totally accept KarenAnne's observation that I'm comparing my unusual bent toward languages with her difficulty, possibly making it seem more extreme. But these are positions we came to after YEARS of trying, not just one or a few months. So it's not said lightly. And they're things *she* finally put into words. I'm sort of a dogged person who can just keep plowing ahead, and she's finally the one who begged to stop.

 

So no, VT gave her a fighting chance, but it didn't change these other things, kwim? It only helped visual stuff. Now whether I could go back and get them to work better now, I don't know. Oh, and then there was piano! How about all my years of trying with her and another year of paid lessons, and the child still CAN'T READ MUSIC! She can tell you the names of the notes, and she can strike the note when given a name. She just can't, for all her efforts, look at a note and strike the key. Again, what horrors. I was a pretty diligent little piano student, and the whole thing is just incomprehensible to me. I finally gave up, because I couldn't afford to pay for what wasn't working. We haven't tried it again since VT. It *may* be that the VT has improved the visual side just enough that she would have a chance. She has said she'd like to pursue percussion in the homeschool band. The percussion would still use notes, but it would have a lot less keys to chose from. I don't know what all is involved with that, but that's her own assessment of herself and what she might be able to do. She has friends in the band, and I definitely think that motivation could help her over the hump. However the problems she had with piano were not merely from lack of motivation, as she had it initially. You sort of lose motivation when it fundamentally isn't working (except by outright memorization of the piece) and isn't fun. :(

 

Hmm, where was that going? Oh yes, I totally agree with you about how contradictory all this is. All I figure is they're trying to break it down into the component processes. That's cool, but my guess is in the process they're going to miss a few aspects and have to come up with some more processing disorders later to cover, lol. I actually had someone tell me NOT to get her evaluated, because at some point it's just sort of psychologically traumatizing to have people asserting, with so many labels, that you're not normal, whole, or well. Clearly something more is going on in our house than what VT covered (or my guess is what even the most amazing SLP could get us through), and so I try to give her the simplest explanation, spin it with lots of positives (the gifts side of it), and move on to a matter-of-fact hard work ethic. But I wish I had better answers. I wish someone could tell me what track to put her on for math or science and how capable she really is, kwim?

 

BTW, I'm really fascinated that your dh had a disparity, even reading *well* and avidly, between his abilities and achievement. How do they test that? Is that part of the IQ testing or WJ or something they figure out by comparing the two?? That is very interesting. There are funny things with dd, like how she has read LotR more times than you can imagine (like literally she'll read a volume a night), but when I ask her the name of a king from it, she can't tell me. Clearly she was skipping some of those wonky words and not attempting to create a sound word for them at all.

[LaughingCat]

There are funny things with dd, like how she has read LotR more times than you can imagine (like literally she'll read a volume a night), but when I ask her the name of a king from it, she can't tell me.

 

I have read LOTR many many many times (avid reader since pre-school) - and I can NOT tell you any of the names of any of the kings. The names of all the main characters, yes, with some thinking/pondering - the names of most of the secondary characters no. I HATED The Symillarion - it felt like one long list of names, and I could NOT keep who did what straight. All the Presidents Men, which I had to read in a college history class, was the same.

 

It does seem to me that the more I read about dyslexia (and ADD too for that matter), the more it appears that multiple issues are being lumped under 1 label, at very least in the way the term is generally used - which matters especially because there is no clear path to a diagnosis either.

 

LL

who's DD1 starts VT next week

[PeterPan]

Very interesting Llolly! Thanks for sharing! And welcome to the boards. :)

 

Are you excited about your VT? It brought such huge changes for us...

[LaughingCat]

I'm ambivalent about the VT :tongue_smilie:

 

However she most definitely has tracking issues, and possibly memory issues, although that seems (to my uneducated self) related to either the tracking or just to slow processing speed. I just don't like the ambiguity of the whole process.

 

So I think I will just have to wait and see how the first few sessions go....

 

LL

[PeterPan]

Ambiguity?? No ambiguity at our place. If they're not answering your questions, I'd look for a new VT doc. There are plenty of docs on the planet, and some are much better than others. I'd rather have once a month with a farther doc than weekly with a local guy who was ambiguous, vague, or inexperienced.

 

I guess that sounds brutal, but it's SO expensive...

[merry gardens]

...Oh, and then there was piano! How about all my years of trying with her and another year of paid lessons, and the child still CAN'T READ MUSIC! She can tell you the names of the notes, and she can strike the note when given a name. She just can't, for all her efforts, look at a note and strike the key. Again, what horrors. I was a pretty diligent little piano student, and the whole thing is just incomprehensible to me. ....

This whole thread is fascinating!

 

We had piano lessons today. I consider piano an artistic form of auditory training and interactive metronome, and probably an overall really good exercise for executive function. My two other sons took piano lessons and I'm quite a musical person, but I signed up my little guy with the reading struggles specifically for whatever benefits piano might have on the neuro connections in his brain.

 

Have I ever told you guys about my son's dyslexic piano trick? He sat down one day and played the "mirror image" of the song! I thought it was cause by some strange wire crossing in his brain, but it turns out, he was just "reading" the music by the markings of which finger should play and he got his left and right hands mixed up. :lol:

[LizzyBee]

This whole thread is fascinating!

 

We had piano lessons today. I consider piano an artistic form of auditory training and interactive metronome, and probably an overall really good exercise for executive function. My two other sons took piano lessons and I'm quite a musical person, but I signed up my little guy with the reading struggles specifically for whatever benefits piano might have on the neuro connections in his brain.

 

Have I ever told you guys about my son's dyslexic piano trick? He sat down one day and played the "mirror image" of the song! I thought it was cause by some strange wire crossing in his brain, but it turns out, he was just "reading" the music by the markings of which finger should play and he got his left and right hands mixed up. :lol:

 

My dd9's piano teacher has never had a dyslexic student before, so she was a little wary when we asked her to teach dd. I wish I knew when we started, so I'd know how long it took things to click for her. She initially had a very hard time learning the notes, and her rhythm was atrocious. Her teacher increased her lessons from 30 minutes to 45 minutes without increasing the fees, and I think that helped quite a bit. She's doing really well now.

[PeterPan]

So Lizzy, what did she do to get over the hump? Any tricks or suggestions? Dh wondered what would happen if we tried her again, now that she has had the VT. She has asked about doing percussion in the band, which would involve note-reading too, though it wouldn't have as much motor involved (so many note options, so many fast finger movements, etc.). I've been scared even to try with her again. I guess I could suck up and try again this summer. It would certainly be a nice hump to get over, if we could.

[merry gardens]

So Lizzy, what did she do to get over the hump? Any tricks or suggestions? Dh wondered what would happen if we tried her again, now that she has had the VT. She has asked about doing percussion in the band, which would involve note-reading too, though it wouldn't have as much motor involved (so many note options, so many fast finger movements, etc.). I've been scared even to try with her again. I guess I could suck up and try again this summer. It would certainly be a nice hump to get over, if we could.

Oh Elizabeth--you should try piano again! My son has taken lessons for a year and a half now and it's finally clicked, more or less. With so many of the things that we do, I don't see much progress. With piano, I can hear the progress. :)

[PeterPan]

Thing is, when they're 12 and as big or bigger than you, it gets a bit harder to compel them. I pick my battles very carefully. But we'll see. Maybe I can add that to my courage list. I do different things in summer, so I just have a mental running list and drop/add as we get there. Right now we're finishing up May. We have testing at the end of the week, and then we officially start summer. I'm looking to change up our approach with more things that she can do very independently for a while. Seems like, no matter how hard I try, a lot of the stuff still requires me to be nearby to be effective. I have some new things in the wings to break it up. The piano could go onto an independent work checklist. Sigh, can't even imagine. I mean last time she had lessons, practiced, I did flashcards with her (standing there, trying to help her through them). But you know, it was before the VT. Let's just say it was ugly enough I'm not thrilled to go back. I thought about trying a new instrument on her like guitar (despite the fact that we have *two* pianos), but she thinks that would be even harder with the motor control.

 

So Merry what did you do during that time? Just do the lessons and whatever his teacher said? Something extra? Any tips or tricks?

[LizzyBee]

So Lizzy, what did she do to get over the hump? Any tricks or suggestions? Dh wondered what would happen if we tried her again, now that she has had the VT. She has asked about doing percussion in the band, which would involve note-reading too, though it wouldn't have as much motor involved (so many note options, so many fast finger movements, etc.). I've been scared even to try with her again. I guess I could suck up and try again this summer. It would certainly be a nice hump to get over, if we could.

 

We didn't really do anything out of the ordinary - just lots of practice and repetition. We practiced note reading with flashcards, and I bought one of those strips that has the notes on it that stands up behind the notes. I played her songs while she watched. I'm not sure that was a good idea, though, because she would memorize by watching me, then she could stand with her back to the piano and play the piece with her hands behind her back. She could play the songs, but it didn't help her learn to read the notes.

 

I can understand being hesitant to try again. If it doesn't work out, it will just create more frustration. OTOH, maybe the VT will give her enough of a boost that she'd be successful this time.

[PeterPan]

http://www.resourceroom.net/gtld/ida_music.asp Found some interesting things. There are a few books on amazon on music or instruments and dyslexia, but my library doesn't have them. (And at $45 each, I'm not likely to buy.) The link above is an interesting article talking about the things we've experienced. Hadn't thought about the percussion requiring rhythm, but the article is right that that could be a problem. It suggests going to an instrument that requires only one cleff, particularly brass or violin. Hmm.

 

I came across some comments of people playing musical note card games. Others print the music from their computer without all the extras. Others add color. So I don't know, just will have to think on it and see what could happen.

[peacefully]

.

[PeterPan]

Yllek, there is suzuki piano. Thing is, my dd was already memorizing everything. I don't see how waiting will help. Guess that's just being close-minded. That would be sort of like assuming a child will be able to sound out words one day if they just start to read. I did read some stories, when I did research earlier on it, of dyslexics who, as adults, when back and used what they knew by memory to learn to read music. But they had a lot of problems before that and needed their adult-level discipline to help them. I even thought about that with dd, just letting her do it all by memory. It just didn't seem to click for us.

 

Maybe that article is right. Maybe kazoo is more our speed. :)

[wapiti]

I was just skimming through here, but if the piano was before VT, it seems to me that note reading might be a whole lot easier after the VT.

 

FWIW, I was just trying to find an old article for you and accidentally came across something else discussing dyslexia and piano, so I'll just throw it out here http://www.successmusicstudio.com/what_is_dyslexia.html

 

Students have claimed similar sensations for music notation, "... [it is reported that] notation sometimes appears to fall away from the horizontal or seems watery" "](Westcombe, p. 12).

It could be that the reason color overlays help lessen fatigue in dyslexic readers is that the transparencies reduce the contrast between the white of the page and the black of the music notes and thus reduces the shimmer. After trying out a transparency, one of my adult students commented that it made it so that the notes did not "blink".

 

That article sounds more like it's discussing vision rather than dyslexia.

 

Ah, I found the old article I was looking for: http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Handedness+in+piano+playing+biological+principles+of+education.-a0146958245 Hmm.. the one tip from it that might be helpful is having the student march around to the beat of the piano music to help with rhythm. Though that's not going to help with note reading :tongue_smilie:

[PeterPan]

Thanks wapiti, those articles are very interesting! Using the metronome was another thing that flopped with us. I tried it with her, because I thought it would help her rhythm. Instead, all it did was fluster her and make clear she could not play to it, as the article describes. But that idea of trying to feel rhythm in the music and move to it, that makes a lot of sense. It goes back to an earlier skill and rebuilds it.

 

Lots of food for thought!

[LizzyBee]

Thanks wapiti, those articles are very interesting! Using the metronome was another thing that flopped with us. I tried it with her, because I thought it would help her rhythm. Instead, all it did was fluster her and make clear she could not play to it, as the article describes. But that idea of trying to feel rhythm in the music and move to it, that makes a lot of sense. It goes back to an earlier skill and rebuilds it.

 

Lots of food for thought!

 

I think I remember you saying your dd did some metronome work with VT, but has she done Interactive Metronome? I think IM probably helped my dd's rhythm improve. Because it's computer-based, the student has to learn to be very precise.

[LaughingCat]

OhElizabeth, I didn't mean the ambiguity of the VT itself :D I thought the testing was clear in what it tested and what she did well in and what she did not. They seem clear on what they plan to do to re-mediate. I am very interested to see the actual things they choose for that though - and how it matches what I've seen others have said they did. This office does do sports vision therapy as well (although I did not ask what that meant - I only saw your posts about that after testing) and it is all on per appt basis so we can stop at any time etc.

 

I guess I feel they will resolve any visual issues - but how much difference that will make still seems unclear? Will we just be stepping into the next search for the most appropriate (for her) "cure"? And its not like the path to VT was a clear obvious one either :tongue_smilie:

 

LL

[PeterPan]

Interesting point! IM is one of those we wanted to do and didn't get done. Is there something we could do at home (as in free) that would be roughly equivalent? The trouble is there's not really a regular life way to replicate the feedback mechanism in the computer-aided device. It does bring up the interesting point though that the piano problem could be due to executive function and motor control planning, not really the language processing at all. Or maybe a glitch in how the two (or three) intersect?

Edited June 2, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

OhElizabeth, I didn't mean the ambiguity of the VT itself :D I thought the testing was clear in what it tested and what she did well in and what she did not. They seem clear on what they plan to do to re-mediate. I am very interested to see the actual things they choose for that though - and how it matches what I've seen others have said they did. This office does do sports vision therapy as well (although I did not ask what that meant - I only saw your posts about that after testing) and it is all on per appt basis so we can stop at any time etc.

 

I guess I feel they will resolve any visual issues - but how much difference that will make still seems unclear? Will we just be stepping into the next search for the most appropriate (for her) "cure"? And its not like the path to VT was a clear obvious one either :tongue_smilie:

 

LL

 

Oh well good! I know we all keep trying things, sort of two steps forward, one step back. And sometimes you just have to draw a line at what you can try. I mean you can get burnt out trying to fight against things that just are the way they are. Or you can close your mind and miss something around the corner that really would have helped. You just can't know. I sympathize with you though.

[wapiti]

Y'all just reminded me of why we got involved with piano in the first place. I was looking into IM, and I just thought to myself, well dang, if I'm going to pay money to have my kids move something to a beat, they might as well learn piano :tongue_smilie:. Obviously not the same thing, but that's my story :). Mixing with the other thread though, ironically my ds8 with the slow processing speed has great rhythm. He doesn't always have the fine motor skills to match, but the rhythm is there in his head at least. Doesn't make sense, does it...

[LizzyBee]

Interesting point! IM is one of those we wanted to do and didn't get done. Is there something we could do at home (as in free) that would be roughly equivalent? The trouble is there's not really a regular life way to replicate the feedback mechanism in the computer-aided device. It does bring up the interesting point though that the piano problem could be due to executive function and motor control planning, not really the language processing at all. Or maybe a glitch in how the two (or three) intersect?

 

If you have a Wii, get the Wii Fit. There is a step exercise that gives feedback on timing. It's not as precise as the IM, but it might help. There are also really good balance exercises. When my dd started OT, the OT said she needed to strengthen her core. About that same time, we got Wii Fit, and it said dd needed to strength her core. Made me wonder why we're paying for OT. :D

[peacefully]

Bother. Michele's original link about EF is not working for me, and I wanted to make some comparisons between EF and the Output-Organization Deficit subtype of CAPD and dyslexia. Anyone have a good EF link for me?

[PeterPan]

Bother. Michele's original link about EF is not working for me, and I wanted to make some comparisons between EF and the Output-Organization Deficit subtype of CAPD and dyslexia. Anyone have a good EF link for me?

 

Ok, you can't drop a bomb like that and not explain it, lol. What does it mean?

[PeterPan]

Thanks for the ideas, wapiti and lizzy! Let me play around with it.