If I am going to bite the bullet and buy CW, what do I buy Homer or OB?

[Tiramisu]

I have an rising 6th grader who doesn't like to write except when it's imitation-based because she struggles coming up with ideas on her own. She writes very well, though, when she's inspired. She's finished Writing Tales 1 & 2.

 

Should I buy Homer A or Older Beginners? Do I even consider Homer B?

 

It seems like there's a big drop out rate for Homer so that's why I'm considering Older Beginners. I'd like to keep her on level with CW without missing the important stuff, of course.

[Narrow Gate Academy]

The recommendation after WT 2 is to go into Homer A. Older Beginners is designed to cover the material in Aesop and Homer at a faster rate for students starting the program later.

 

As far as the difficulty of Homer, I wrote a recent post on it that might help.

 

HTH

[SilverMoon]

OB was written for seventh grade and up. Considering your description, I'd start with Homer A, and condense/shorten wherever it's easy so you can get into B faster. :)

[NineChoirs]

You might want to look at Lingua Mater, it is also imitation based writing. I was also considering CW but it looked a bit too convoluted (go here do this, go there do that, books must be done in order) to me. I believe writing should be more naturally taught & learned by forward progression and practice. Lingua Mater (or the original ES Language Lessons for non Catholics) is amazing. If I could have designed a writing program, this is what it would have looked like. I have both ILL (for my ds, just started using) and LM 7 (for my dd, she hasn't started yet, but the book/program looks excellent). Within the first five lessons of ILL my son was writing like a pro and enjoying it! It is also very easy to teach, especially using the "do the next thing" method.

[Cleopatra]

The recommendation after WT 2 is to go into Homer A. Older Beginners is designed to cover the material in Aesop and Homer at a faster rate for students starting the program later.

 

As far as the difficulty of Homer, I wrote a recent post on it that might help.

 

HTH

 

:iagree:

 

Thank you so much for linking your post. I didn't see SWB's comments but I completely agree with everything you so eloquently stated. I do understand that CW appears intimidating at first, but once I started with it, I loved the flexibility of the program; you don't have to do EVERYTHING and are able to tailor it to fit your child (we personally do the first few lessons in one week, but the remainder we stretch over two: one for the skill exercises and one for the writing project). My dd can easily put any narrative/idea into her own words now, her vocabulary use and sentence structure is excellent, and I am thrilled with her progress!

[WishboneDawn]

You might want to look at Lingua Mater, it is also imitation based writing. I was also considering CW but it looked a bit too convoluted (go here do this, go there do that, books must be done in order) to me. I believe writing should be more naturally taught & learned by forward progression and practice. Lingua Mater (or the original ES Language Lessons for non Catholics) is amazing. If I could have designed a writing program, this is what it would have looked like. I have both ILL (for my ds, just started using) and LM 7 (for my dd, she hasn't started yet, but the book/program looks excellent). Within the first five lessons of ILL my son was writing like a pro and enjoying it! It is also very easy to teach, especially using the "do the next thing" method.

 

It looks really good. What do you plan to try after ILL?

 

ETA: You're a horrible influence. I just went and spent all my hard earned Amazon GCs (from Swagbucks) on Lingua Mater. I've been agonizing over writing for this summer/next year for my rising 8th grader and you wiped it all out in one post. *sigh* I think it was the promise of something like CW but without all the fuss that got me. That and the Catholic content - even though I'm an Anglican who's a secular homeschooler. :D

Edited May 25, 2011 by WishboneDawn

[Tiramisu]

You might want to look at Lingua Mater, it is also imitation based writing. I was also considering CW but it looked a bit too convoluted (go here do this, go there do that, books must be done in order) to me. I believe writing should be more naturally taught & learned by forward progression and practice. Lingua Mater (or the original ES Language Lessons for non Catholics) is amazing. If I could have designed a writing program, this is what it would have looked like. I have both ILL (for my ds, just started using) and LM 7 (for my dd, she hasn't started yet, but the book/program looks excellent). Within the first five lessons of ILL my son was writing like a pro and enjoying it! It is also very easy to teach, especially using the "do the next thing" method.

 

I've had LM on my shelf for years from an older dd. I think I need to take a look at it.

 

It's just funny that I've been thinking, "What if I just didn't buy anything and use something I already have. Would dd be any worse off?" :001_smile:

[NineChoirs]

It looks really good. What do you plan to try after ILL?

 

ETA: You're a horrible influence. I just went and spent all my hard earned Amazon GCs (from Swagbucks) on Lingua Mater. I've been agonizing over writing for this summer/next year for my rising 8th grader and you wiped it all out in one post. *sigh* I think it was the promise of something like CW but without all the fuss that got me. That and the Catholic content - even though I'm an Anglican who's a secular homeschooler. :D

 

Sorry about the whole influence thing ;):D I definitely think that that is a hazard of this message board!

 

After ILL is Lingua Mater 7, which is what my daughter will be using, and after that is Lingua Mater Americana: http://hillsideeducation.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=223 Which can be used in 9th grade and can double as American Lit!

 

And for those with younger Children (we are hoping to have more) there is also a Primary Language Lessons book. :001_smile:

[NineChoirs]

I've had LM on my shelf for years from an older dd. I think I need to take a look at it.

 

It's just funny that I've been thinking, "What if I just didn't buy anything and use something I already have. Would dd be any worse off?" :001_smile:

 

I often wonder how many treasures I could find in my "not currently being used curriculum" gigantic closet/shelf unit.

I am something of a curriculum junky (have always been an avid book collector, so I doubt that helped:tongue_smilie:) and I am just now settling into programs that really work for us that we can stick with through High School (finally have all of our learning/teaching styles nailed down I think/hope ;)). I am sure I could have saved a ton of money throughout the years by using the stuff I actually bought, instead of just buying more books :lol:. Every once in awhile I bring up a box and sell some of the stuff and am amazed by a lot of the "great" books that I barely even used. :D

[Create Your Ritual]

By chance have you looked into CC? www.classicalcomposition.com It also uses the progym. exercises and does not specifically include the grammar component. My dc have also used WT and I will be moving into CC Fable & Narrative. Jim Selby, the author and teacher, recommends that you use the first half of each the first year and the second half the following. I haven't compared the 'usability' factor between CC Fable/Narrative and CW Homer A&B, but I do like the samples I have reviewed.

[amsunshine]

You might want to look at Lingua Mater, it is also imitation based writing. I was also considering CW but it looked a bit too convoluted (go here do this, go there do that, books must be done in order) to me. I believe writing should be more naturally taught & learned by forward progression and practice. Lingua Mater (or the original ES Language Lessons for non Catholics) is amazing. If I could have designed a writing program, this is what it would have looked like. I have both ILL (for my ds, just started using) and LM 7 (for my dd, she hasn't started yet, but the book/program looks excellent). Within the first five lessons of ILL my son was writing like a pro and enjoying it! It is also very easy to teach, especially using the "do the next thing" method.

 

What is ES Language Lessons? :bigear:

[Lovin Learnin]

By chance have you looked into CC? www.classicalcomposition.com It also uses the progym. exercises and does not specifically include the grammar component. My dc have also used WT and I will be moving into CC Fable & Narrative. Jim Selby, the author and teacher, recommends that you use the first half of each the first year and the second half the following. I haven't compared the 'usability' factor between CC Fable/Narrative and CW Homer A&B, but I do like the samples I have reviewed.

 

Have you had a chance to compare the two programs side by side? I really vacillated between the two and wound up buying Homer A, but I've been thinking of getting CC Narration also. I would like to know which one is best for us before we hit the next level (Chreia/Maxim). Dd is a pretty good writer already and picks up concepts quickly. My one fear is that CW will move much slower than we'll need.

[NineChoirs]

What is ES Language Lessons? :bigear:

 

Emma Serl: http://cathyduffyreviews.com/grammar-composition/primary-language-lessons.htm

 

 

I am not sure if there are further ones in the original series that are being worked on or not, but the current reprints (with new updated teacher guides) include Primary Language Lessons and Intermediate Language Lessons.

 

The Lingua Mater series is the Catholic version of the reprints but use the same source material. The Catholic reprints also go to a higher level of books, including Lingua Mater 7 and Lingua Mater Americana.

[NineChoirs]

I am thinking that the higher levels of Lingua Mater are new books all together rather than reprints, but I could be wrong! (I cannot find original versions)

[amsunshine]

Thank you!

[Create Your Ritual]

Have you had a chance to compare the two programs side by side? I really vacillated between the two and wound up buying Homer A, but I've been thinking of getting CC Narration also. I would like to know which one is best for us before we hit the next level (Chreia/Maxim). Dd is a pretty good writer already and picks up concepts quickly. My one fear is that CW will move much slower than we'll need.

 

Hi Lovin Learnin ... first off, I just took the dc to Wicked... we loved it! I will never be able to watch The Wizard of Oz the same way again. lol.

 

I 'just' posted this very question http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276819&page=5

 

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable on the subject than I will respond. ;-)

[WishboneDawn]

And for those with younger Children (we are hoping to have more) there is also a Primary Language Lessons book. :001_smile:

 

*sigh* I noticed that. I'll be buying it next. :)

[Lovin Learnin]

Hi Lovin Learnin ... first off, I just took the dc to Wicked... we loved it! I will never be able to watch The Wizard of Oz the same way again. lol.

 

I 'just' posted this very question http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276819&page=5

 

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable on the subject than I will respond. ;-)

 

LOL! I have a new perspective on the Wizard of Oz myself. Wicked is awesome and dd and I are obsessed. The rest of the family is tired of the soundtrack and the singing around here!

 

I'm really hoping someone here has used CC and can give us the heads up or, ideally, a comparison to CW. I really want to see the Narration level but I don't want to buy it if I'm not going to use it. Probably not possible, though.

[Tiramisu]

I often wonder how many treasures I could find in my "not currently being used curriculum" gigantic closet/shelf unit.

I am something of a curriculum junky (have always been an avid book collector, so I doubt that helped:tongue_smilie:) and I am just now settling into programs that really work for us that we can stick with through High School (finally have all of our learning/teaching styles nailed down I think/hope ;)). I am sure I could have saved a ton of money throughout the years by using the stuff I actually bought, instead of just buying more books :lol:. Every once in awhile I bring up a box and sell some of the stuff and am amazed by a lot of the "great" books that I barely even used. :D

 

I also have Write with the Best. I don't think that would ruin her either.

:confused:

[Tiramisu]

By chance have you looked into CC? www.classicalcomposition.com It also uses the progym. exercises and does not specifically include the grammar component. My dc have also used WT and I will be moving into CC Fable & Narrative. Jim Selby, the author and teacher, recommends that you use the first half of each the first year and the second half the following. I haven't compared the 'usability' factor between CC Fable/Narrative and CW Homer A&B, but I do like the samples I have reviewed.

 

I wish I could get more reviews of this.

 

When I looked at the samples of CC, I started to think that may be this polygym thing is just not for me.:001_huh:

[Create Your Ritual]

NJKelli, I think for me it has helped to move ahead to the finish line and read, say, in something like Corbett's Classical Composition. It gives me a direction to move in. I think ultimately for me the history of the program has been a big draw. From my understanding, up until about 50 years ago most people were classically trained using these exercises and had been for about 2000 years. When I read C.S. Lewis or others like him, I am drawn to the fact that he could write well creatively (Narnia, etc) but also write equally as well in an essay about education, or eloquently describe Christianity in Modern Christianity. I am not saying by any means that I am developing a future C.S. Lewis. But, ultimately I wanted the kids to learn more than just a formula for writing. I wanted them to learn to 'think' about what they were writing as well. My dc are in the beginning stages of this, but I am excited for the years to come. I hope that I am correct in my decision, and I do know there are many many roads to take that will lead you there. I think OhElizabeth in another post had a great idea about doing the progym. exercises yourself and then teaching the concepts the way YOU want to teach them. The way they work for YOUR dc. I like that idea very much.

[Tiramisu]

NJKelli, I think for me it has helped to move ahead to the finish line and read, say, in something like Corbett's Classical Composition. It gives me a direction to move in. I think ultimately for me the history of the program has been a big draw. From my understanding, up until about 50 years ago most people were classically trained using these exercises and had been for about 2000 years. When I read C.S. Lewis or others like him, I am drawn to the fact that he could write well creatively (Narnia, etc) but also write equally as well in an essay about education, or eloquently describe Christianity in Modern Christianity. I am not saying by any means that I am developing a future C.S. Lewis. But, ultimately I wanted the kids to learn more than just a formula for writing. I wanted them to learn to 'think' about what they were writing as well. My dc are in the beginning stages of this, but I am excited for the years to come. I hope that I am correct in my decision, and I do know there are many many roads to take that will lead you there. I think OhElizabeth in another post had a great idea about doing the progym. exercises yourself and then teaching the concepts the way YOU want to teach them. The way they work for YOUR dc. I like that idea very much.

 

I like OhElizabeth's idea. I like her ideas about everything. However, I will never be able to do it. I just don't have the time. A biggish, busy family with regularly appearing medical problems keeps me from ever making much progress in classical education, mine or the kids'.

 

A big draw for me about CW is the beautiful language to analyze.

[Create Your Ritual]

I agree.. I am 'hoping' things slow down for us... coming off of a two year house building project and a WILD toddler. Some how life never seems to slow down though. lol. I have to have help with the little one during most of the school hour days so that I can give the time and attention to my older dc. I am hoping to move them through several years of the progym. and then work to find them online classes in that same direction.

[Capt_Uhura]

I wish I could get more reviews of this.

 

When I looked at the samples of CC, I started to think that may be this polygym thing is just not for me.:001_huh:

 

:iagree:

 

I think maybe I just need to hold it in my hand. I'm hoping someone will bring it to the RFWP Valley Forge convention. I'm going through LToW 4th edition and I'm getting that. I'm also reading Corbett's and D'Angelo. I'm going to read D'Angelo first b/c I think that will help me w/ Corbett's book. After all the CW talk, I may take a look at it. But maybe I should stick w/ my current plan. Finish WWE4, do WWS in the Fall (we were in the test group and it worked well). Finish up MCT PT now that I've learned more about paragraphs and can guide DS better. Then do LToW along w/ SWB writing across the curriculum. I may do some WT1/2 (I have the teacher's guides but not student books) w/ my rising 3rd and 6th graders this summer.

 

It's hard to see how WT, CC, CW, LToW all compare/overlap or not.

[Create Your Ritual]

Capt.. I know it's hard to choose isn't it?! I also will be continuing on with MCT Town next year. For us, I have 1 1/2 hours a day of grammar & writing and the kids have really enjoyed both WWE and MCT this year, and we seem to have enough time built in to do both of those and some form of progym. exercise. I know enough to know that my dc are not going to move quickly through the progym. no matter what curriculum I choose, so for now I am going for gaining an understanding of it (I am going to get D'Angelo too now that you mention it), and then find the easiest way to implement it. I look at what you & Swimmermom have done with teaching writing and there is a lot of value in that. I personally loved Swimmermom's sample essay from her 10th grader. I get there are areas to critique, but what I felt when I read it was a student that was actually engaging in the process of deciphering the poem and what it meant to him. I appreciated that he had a thought about what it meant. I guess ultimately that is what I am going for. I just want to find a set of exercises (whether it's Kilgallon, MCT, CC or WT2) that allows them to play with sentence structure and engage them with good examples.

[Capt_Uhura]

OH forgot to add that...we're finishing up Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary School and I've really seen an improvement in DS's writing. We'll do Story Grammar for Elementary School next. I'm also incorporating some Image Grammar as well.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Capt_Uhura

[Create Your Ritual]

I am glad to hear that. After reading Image Grammer, Word Painting - McClanahan and The Art of Styling Sentences - Sullivan, I can see the value in the exercises. Just having read Image Grammar I have attempted to use some of the ideas on MCT's Practice Island sentences we do 4 part analysis on.

[Tiramisu]

OH forgot to add that...we're finishing up Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary School and I've really seen an improvement in DS's writing. We'll do Story Grammar for Elementary School next. I'm also incorporating some Image Grammar as well.

 

I'm loving Killgallons Sentence Composing for Elementary School. Unfortunately, it's one of the things that hasn't been getting done since the last medical crisis. When I'm feeling really confident about teaching dd writing, I think, "Wouldn't Killgallon and somthing like Jump In be enough?" Would that give you what you need to help your dc write beautiful sentences and understand the structure of essays? Hmmm.

[ReneTL]

OK, so I've read every CW Homer thread out there over the last several months and I'm thinking I'm ready to pull the trigger - now for the scheduling. I get that it takes about 45-60 minutes a day. But I have a stupid question: how much of that time is "at the elbow"? Judging from the samples, I know I'll need to be close, but when I'm scheduling this time, do I need to schedule independent work for my younger DD for a full hour or can I just be accessible to both for questions/guidance on their assignments. This is what I find so difficult about scheduling. I admire you moms of many!

 

Thanks for the insight.

 

Peace,

Rene

[Cleopatra]

OK, so I've read every CW Homer thread out there over the last several months and I'm thinking I'm ready to pull the trigger - now for the scheduling. I get that it takes about 45-60 minutes a day. But I have a stupid question: how much of that time is "at the elbow"? Judging from the samples, I know I'll need to be close, but when I'm scheduling this time, do I need to schedule independent work for my younger DD for a full hour or can I just be accessible to both for questions/guidance on their assignments. This is what I find so difficult about scheduling. I admire you moms of many!

 

Thanks for the insight.

 

Peace,

Rene

 

I break one lesson into two weeks (except for the first couple, which are usually easier and have shorter models). Each day - 4 days per week - it takes my dd anywhere from 30 - 60 min per day. The exercises usually can be done in a shorter period of time, but anything that has to do with the writing project, is longer.

 

As for how independent the student can be .......... I'd say that initially you have to invest a good amount of time. The skills need to be taught to the child and they are complex enough that they can't learn them on their own. In Homer, a skill is introduced and then the student works on it for 4 lessons, then another skill is introduced and it is worked on for 4 lessons, etc. However, I found after we were in the "Homer groove :001_smile:", I was able to have my dd complete some of the exercises and even some of the skills, virtually on her own, but only after I taught the skill in the original lesson and she'd practiced it for at least another lesson. I don't find that I have to be standing over her. I usually give her the instructions, let her do the work, come back to check it and then we may have a conversation about what she's done. As it's been said before, it's all a learning curve but eventually you find your groove!

 

HTH! :001_smile: