kandty Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I have always done oral narrations with Ds10. After reading TWTM earlier this year I am trying to make some changes. I am trying to write down his oral narrations and have him copy it. It's not working. I hope this makes sense! His narrations are so out of order, random, and useless details. I can't write it down word for word. Should I be directing his oral narrations? Or am I just being difficult (and too controlling) and should let his (seems poor to me) narrations go without saying anything. Another problem I am having is teaching him basic writing skills. Writing a sentence is difficult for him. He does fine in dictation, so he knows to capitalize and put that period on the end. ;) But, "freelance" writing is more like a list of phrases. Writing this I am wondering if I should pay more attention to how he talks. Maybe he is not talking in complete sentences. Which would make sense on why I have a hard time writing his oral narrations. Any suggestions? :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankcassiesmom Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 With my son I didn't do the best job of teaching him writing (he's 11). This year I just jumped right ahead to outlining and then writing from the outline. He's doing amazing! By outlining he learns to put things in order, topic with details under, he doesn't have to write full sentences while putting the ideas down, etc. Then he gets to go BACK and work on nice full sentences and paragraphs from the outline. I wish I would have read TWTM years ago but I didn't until this year and he's done well skipping right to outlining and then "narrations" from his outline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 You should be directing his oral narrations. If he gives you an incomplete sentence, turn it into a complete sentence and have him repeat it back to you. If he's heading off into the weeds, you might want to try giving him some leading questions before asking for the narration. That will help him learn to focus on the main points. You might want to listen to SWB's lectures on teaching writing in the elementary and logic years. I know she gives a good example of directing the narration in the elementary one. She says it may feel like you just came up with the narration yourself, because you pretty much did, but it's teaching them what they're supposed to do, giving them a model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 She says it may feel like you just came up with the narration yourself, because you pretty much did, but it's teaching them what they're supposed to do, giving them a model. That is how I was feeling! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I found that we were missing the identification of details or the main idea. We actually moved ahead and began paragraph development, in the simplest construction, along with outlining. I decided against a summary or narration for the last half of history. One, I did not have the time to devote to creating the narration with science being the reward for completing history. Two, Dd is very much the scientist over the historian. We are listing facts - the main idea or topic for each paragraph of our reading. I ask her to provide a sentence that could be used as a title for the paragraph that she read. In other words, I chose to outright teach the concept instead of using modling or imitation. Sometimes I struggle with teaching how to identify theme or topic within reading. I found some workbooks on the main idea. These have worked well to make our facts more relevant. Identifying what is important and what is commentary or detail of the topic is a struggle with many children who make the transition from public school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Does anyone think using WWE would help? I haven't looked it this program too much, so I don't know anything about it besides little stuff I have been picking up off the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Yes, it should help a lot. At that age, I'd probably go with the instructor text, pulling passages from what you're reading in various subjects. It might be easier to just do enough to get him up to speed that way. I use the workbooks, but I'm dealing with a first grader, so we're doing the whole 36 weeks in a 36 week timeframe. You obviously wouldn't be doing that with a 10 year old. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janainaz Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 That is how I was feeling! I used to feel this way also when we began narrating years ago. The more you do it, the easier it becomes (for BOTH of you). I used to feel like I had to pull it out of my son, but as the years have passed, he narrates better than I do. Yes, you have to direct and guide him with the questions. You will have to help him pull the main idea out of the story, or reading selection. I would stick with simple story lines that are easy for him to summarize. Get him used to doing it, and gradually work him up to more diffucult passages or stories. It will just take practice!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evergreen Academy Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I would start by having him narrate shorter passages, you can use lit, history, fiction, etc. You may have to start one paragraph at a time. Guide his narration as folks have suggested, encouraging him to use complete sentences. If he starts to give you a detail without telling you who or what he is talking about, ask a question that forces him to go back and fill in that information. Write the narrations down for him, and then go over them together - do they make sense? What is missing? It does take lots of guidance for some kids, but they will get in the habit of speaking in complete sentences, and will start to understand what type of information to look for. Many kids have trouble thinking while they are writing, so I always wrote out my boys' narrations for them as they were learning, and they copied them into their notebooks over the course of several days, for handwriting. My dd had a very hard time identifying the important pieces of information in a story - her narrations were very creative, LOL. So we started with short news articles, doing what I described above and then transferring it into writing. Right now I am working with littlest, almost 8, who has a dreadful time narrating. It is hard work but a really important part of his school day, because it is the skill that will allow him to understand all of his learning materials, and become a successful writer. Like pulling teeth some days, but so necessary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeefreak Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I have always done oral narrations with Ds10. After reading TWTM earlier this year I am trying to make some changes. I am trying to write down his oral narrations and have him copy it. It's not working. I hope this makes sense! His narrations are so out of order, random, and useless details. I can't write it down word for word. Should I be directing his oral narrations? Or am I just being difficult (and too controlling) and should let his (seems poor to me) narrations go without saying anything. Another problem I am having is teaching him basic writing skills. Writing a sentence is difficult for him. He does fine in dictation, so he knows to capitalize and put that period on the end. ;) But, "freelance" writing is more like a list of phrases. Writing this I am wondering if I should pay more attention to how he talks. Maybe he is not talking in complete sentences. Which would make sense on why I have a hard time writing his oral narrations. Any suggestions? :bigear: Writing Tales was an answer to prayers here! We used WT 2 this year, only made it 1/2 way through the book, but dd GETS it now. She can narrate well, she can order her thoughts, she is punctuating correctly, AND it helped her understand outlining. I'm going to do WT 1 with my youngest in 4th grade. We did try WWE, and the reason I think we did better with WT was the breakdown. We didn't use the workbooks with WWE so that might have been my fault, but from what I experienced, WT moves a little slower through the skills. You take a minimum of 2 weeks to complete one paper, and cover outlining, narration, dictation, copywork and other necessary skills. There are also plenty of extra activities that we skipped, but other children might benefit from. HTH! Dorinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Twain Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 WWE came to mind when I read your post. The WWE workbook is scripted, and it tells you exactly how to lead your child to develop a complete and brief summary of the passage. It also emphasizes having your child answer every question in a complete sentence and how to correct if he doesn't. On the website, there is a placement test to tell which workbook to start with if you are interested in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Yes, you have to direct and guide him with the questions. You will have to help him pull the main idea out of the story, or reading selection. I think from reading so many CM books that I thought you weren't suppose to direct narrations. It is taking some time to rethink this and try something new. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 Thanks everyone for the help! Keep it coming. I went to the library and got WWE. I guess I will start there since I didn't have to buy anything. Will be reading that and see what plan I can come up with. And will work better with DS to help him develop his narrations. We have some time to work on this the next several weeks. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeatherM2 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 I think from reading so many CM books that I thought you weren't suppose to direct narrations. It is taking some time to rethink this and try something new. ;) I remember reading somewhere that CM did direct narrations before the child began by asking questions and putting key names/ideas on the chalk board. It was my understanding that she didn't interrupt a narration once it started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted May 8, 2011 Share Posted May 8, 2011 I think that the trouble with narrations and his struggle with writing are linked. He doesn't narrate well because his thoughts are jumbled. He doesn't write well because unorganized thoughts don't go down well on paper. I agree that his narrations should, for a time, be directed to help him organize the information. I would start by previewing what he will be reading and have him locate the answers to Who? What? When? (or What order of events?) Where? How? (or to What purpose?) and if he's up to it, Why? Then those answers can be set in a pattern of either a retelling or a summary, depending on what you decide is most appropriate for the selection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Just a quick update. Used WWE last Friday for the first time. He didn't use complete sentences and I worked with him on that. Come Monday morning his narrations were perfect (with my directions). I went ahead and started my first grader on WWE 1 too. Going great so far! Can't wait to see the results of this in the (near) future! Will continue until I have to take the book back to the library. Will decide what to buy after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critterfixer Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 It is always nice to see progress, isn't it?:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Hooray! The complete sentences gets better. For a while there, I would say "What was such and such... in a complete sentence." :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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