Can't believe I'm even considering this....TOG???

[Country Girl]

I can't believe I'm even considering this, but would TOG work for me? This year I've been doing American History with my ds (6yo, 1st grade) using Beyond Little Hearts For His Glory. I'm considering going on to the Bigger Hearts program next year but I'm not quite sold yet and still exploring my history options.

 

I'll be honest, history is not really my thing :eek:. I had awful history teachers growing up and was never too interested in the subject. I will say that as I have aged and have gained a better understanding of history, I have actually started to enjoy it somewhat. However, it still isn't a major focus of our hs nor do we desire it to be (we are by far more math and science oriented here). However, I do want my kids to enjoy it more than I did and I can tell that they already do. My ds loves to read and has read quite a bit of historical fiction and has learned a lot (and so have I). So I'm really thinking I want to incorporate these types of good books because I see how much can be learned from them. However, I am a serious check the box, linear thinking, kind of gal. So I need structure and a spine to feel like it is cohesive. Plus, without the benefit of someone else's structure, my serious lack of historical knowledge would bury us all. I would also like discussion questions, mapping/geography, and maybe a FEW hands on projects, or even research type projects would be good.

 

My other big concern for next year is trying to streamline things. My other two kiddos are still young (4 and 2) but I know that it won't be long before I have to make time to fully school them (my 4yo is learning to read right now but that is a very light day:D). As I mentioned, I am a very linear thinker and am trying to map things out for the future and how that will all work. I know that at some point I'm going to need to combine my dc as much as possible. I'm also thinking if I can combine/streamline subjects withing each child life will be easier. In other words, why not combine lit studies and writing assignments with our history studies?

 

From what I am gathering about TOG, it seems like it might fit in with what I'm looking for. Except, I'm afraid it will be history overload for our family since that isn't really our focus. I also have to admit, it looks so confusing and I don't do well with keeping up with weekly planning. I'm kind of more of an, open the book and wing it type, and I know TOG wouldn't work well this way. And my final big concern is.... the money. Again, since history isn't our focus, it also isn't where the majority of the budget typically goes. However, I realize that TOG can be used over and over for many years to come so I may be able to justify to myself (and dh).

 

So, what are your thoughts for me? Could TOG work? Could I use it as kind of a school in a box type of program, adding in Math, Science, and Grammar only?

 

Thanks!

[Tarheel Heather]

I can't believe I'm even considering this, but would TOG work for me? This year I've been doing American History with my ds (6yo, 1st grade) using Beyond Little Hearts For His Glory. I'm considering going on to the Bigger Hearts program next year but I'm not quite sold yet and still exploring my history options.

 

I'll be honest, history is not really my thing :eek:. I had awful history teachers growing up and was never too interested in the subject. I will say that as I have aged and have gained a better understanding of history, I have actually started to enjoy it somewhat. However, it still isn't a major focus of our hs nor do we desire it to be (we are by far more math and science oriented here). However, I do want my kids to enjoy it more than I did and I can tell that they already do. My ds loves to read and has read quite a bit of historical fiction and has learned a lot (and so have I). So I'm really thinking I want to incorporate these types of good books because I see how much can be learned from them. However, I am a serious check the box, linear thinking, kind of gal. So I need structure and a spine to feel like it is cohesive. Plus, without the benefit of someone else's structure, my serious lack of historical knowledge would bury us all. I would also like discussion questions, mapping/geography, and maybe a FEW hands on projects, or even research type projects would be good.

 

My other big concern for next year is trying to streamline things. My other two kiddos are still young (4 and 2) but I know that it won't be long before I have to make time to fully school them (my 4yo is learning to read right now but that is a very light day:D). As I mentioned, I am a very linear thinker and am trying to map things out for the future and how that will all work. I know that at some point I'm going to need to combine my dc as much as possible. I'm also thinking if I can combine/streamline subjects withing each child life will be easier. In other words, why not combine lit studies and writing assignments with our history studies?

 

From what I am gathering about TOG, it seems like it might fit in with what I'm looking for. Except, I'm afraid it will be history overload for our family since that isn't really our focus. I also have to admit, it looks so confusing and I don't do well with keeping up with weekly planning. I'm kind of more of an, open the book and wing it type, and I know TOG wouldn't work well this way. And my final big concern is.... the money. Again, since history isn't our focus, it also isn't where the majority of the budget typically goes. However, I realize that TOG can be used over and over for many years to come so I may be able to justify to myself (and dh).

 

So, what are your thoughts for me? Could TOG work? Could I use it as kind of a school in a box type of program, adding in Math, Science, and Grammar only?

 

Thanks!

 

 

TOG is great in the fact that you can go as little or as much as you like. If you want to go a little deeper you can or you can go lighter. And you do have to add in math, science, grammar. But as for history you go where you want to with it. As for it working for you, have you downloaded the 3 week trials? That way you could give it a try and see how you do with it , as well as your dc.

 

HTH,

[Trivium Academy]

If you need someone else to provide a schedule, then TOG isn't for you. Other options would be Sonlight, Biblioplan, My Father's World, Winter Promise, curriculas that schedule out each day for you. Or just stick with your original plan...

 

TOG is a buffet, everything is provided but you have to load your plate. My plate will look different from someone else's even though we're eating from the same buffet. If you need your plate handed to you with everything on it, you won't like it. I don't think.

 

The quality...yes, that is there but it is also present in other programs that may fit you better.

Have you looked at the 3 week sample? Explored Tapestry?

[PeterPan]

It's overkill, so don't even consider it. (I assume you wanted blunt advice?) Sure you could use it over, but would you WANT to?? Curriculum junkies always want something new. Save TOG for later, when you really need it.

 

Now I'm going to fill in or challenge a couple things you said. You said it should be cohesive. Kids this age seldom care about cohesiveness. I just asked my dd age 9 about that (she's a total history nut btw), and she said no, that disconnected is fine, that she'd rather have lots of interesting facts, stories and books than to worry about finding some spine to make them cohesive. Making connections is a logic stage thing, not a grammar stage.

 

Two, you are worried your lack of historical knowledge will result in you doing a bad job. You CAN'T do a bad job. This is 1st grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize how little they would really be covering if they were in school? Do you realize that if you picked up ANY of the popular books on american and read them to your dc, your dc would come out knowing more than that? You CANNOT POSSIBLY mess him up at this stage. Junior high, the logic stage, when he's making connections and you (the teacher) should actually have a clue that connections exist, THEN you need some help. But right now, there's no way in the world you can mess this up, honest! And I say that as the utter history dunce.

 

I got TQ guides, the VP cards, have read to her some, but mainly just leave her alone with piles of books. She knows WAY more history than I do, lol. I pulled up some card about the middle ages/reformation from VP and she proceeded to give me the low-down. If your dc likes to read, they can pretty much do it to themselves at this age. You don't need writing assignments on the history. He can write summaries on it, but you don't need him writing papers or something, lol. Projects? Get some project books, that's not hard to solve. Mapping? Get a map. You're thinking too hard and reading into this more than is necessary. You're trying to teach logic stage at the grammar stage. You can do it, but it's going to be YOU doing it, YOU retaining, not him. Have you seen the threads on retention around here? General concensus is no matter what you do, they retain extremely little from 1st grade by the time they get to 5th or 6th. They have general impressions, general awarenesses, vaguely remember stories but have lost specifics. If they don't use it (like skills), they will lose it. So don't knock yourself out or sweat this and don't feel like you need to be teaching logic stage (making connections, doing analysis, writing papers, doing timelines, etc.) to a grammar stage dc.

 

You know, when I read what you're doing, I thought of WP. Might be something to consider. It has paper crafts and coloring your younger (4 yo) will enjoy tagging along with. It has read alouds, a spine, and a schedule. It has activities and some worksheets (codes, etc.). I think if you start young enough (age 6 is fine), it would be enjoyable. Or for a one year survey Adventures from MFW would be nice. What I like there is you're skipping the ugly part of the 20th century, saving that for when he's older.

 

Just get something that looks fun to you and do it together. I made the mistake you're making when my dd was that age, thinking I had to make it more than I did. My advice, in retrospect, is to make it FUN. Find something that enables you to do the FUN things you're wanting to do with it. Don't stress over the academic things you think you need to do, because you really don't need them. All you need to do is read and have some fun with it. If you're of a mind to, you could do the set of 4 Time Travelers cds. Hmm, maybe that would be overwhelming with two littles in tow? Have you read the D'Aulaire books? COFA's? (Childhood of Famous Americans) Does he read avidly for himself? If so, I'd get him piles and piles of books and just do something minimal yourself. He can drive this himself if you let him. Plan a fun project once a week and have a daily american history read aloud (fiction or a spine, whatever you prefer). Anything you do is going to be plenty, honest.

[Trivium Academy]

Uh, Elizabeth...are you okay? She's just exploring options, your post was a bit harsh. I don't see where she's considering logic stage studies for grammar stage but looking down the road at future situations.

[Mommamia]

Elizabeth....I was just lurking in on this post.....I really liked what you wrote. As a mom to a next yr first grader I needed that reminder. I'm actually stressing a little less:)

[michaeljenn]

Well, I sure wish I would have started TOG when my children were younger. I would have liked to be able to educate myself with it, using the Rhetoric level material, while my younger guys use the Lower Grammar.

 

Just like Jessica said, it is a buffet, and you need to be able to pick and choose what you want to do. This age is all about having fun and developing that love of learning.... there is time!! I could write pages and pages of what I tried to cram down my kiddo's throat whe they were younger!!!

 

Also, I always thought I needed it scheduled out for me day by day, but it was actually a hinderance because i would always feel behind!!!

 

I love how you pick and choose what to do in a week, and when to do it. I also could stay up all night planning, cause it is fun:lol:

 

I have tried SOTW alone, MOH alone, My Father's World and Sonlight!!!!! I really like TOG!

 

Hope this helps some..... It is sooooo hard to choose a program isn't it. I hope you find the right fit for you. Just remember, again, have fun, enjoy the journey..... there is soooo much time!!

 

Jen

[St. Theophan Academy]

You know, we all stress too much sometimes :) I would definitely agree to take it easy in 1st grade (and really in 2nd too). Focus on math and reading, and have fun with the rest of it. It is true that they will pick up so much on their own, and a few fun projects will be what sticks in their heads. I am so glad I took it fun and easy with dd this year (she is child #2, so this time I quit worrying so much - I think by the time #4 has her turn I will be SO MELLOW :) ) TOG appeals to me, and I have ordered a unit before just to hold it and really see if I would like it, and I think that maybe in a few years I might - but right now oldest is 3rd grade, and I just can't see the point of getting that deep. They can make connections at that age, and they will, but I don't need to put that kind of time into history right now. I agree with OhElizabeth that a map, a globe, and a lot of good books are really all you need for those first years. Try the D'Aulaires books, or the Holling books (we love these) and do some fun stuff. (Now if I can just stick to this advice myself , I will be doing good, I admit the siren call of TOG beckons me every May when I get the planning bug!)

[Tarheel Heather]

Have fun! I wish we had done Winterpromise way back when!

[Country Girl]

TOG is great in the fact that you can go as little or as much as you like. If you want to go a little deeper you can or you can go lighter. And you do have to add in math, science, grammar. But as for history you go where you want to with it. As for it working for you, have you downloaded the 3 week trials? That way you could give it a try and see how you do with it , as well as your dc.

 

HTH,

 

 

Thanks Heather. I have downloaded the sample but am still trying to work my way through it, it is kind of overwhelming. I like the idea that I can go as little or as much as I like and that is why, even thought I know TOG can be way too much, I was still thinking it might be a possibility. I'll have to look over the sample some more.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

If you need someone else to provide a schedule, then TOG isn't for you. Other options would be Sonlight, Biblioplan, My Father's World, Winter Promise, curriculas that schedule out each day for you. Or just stick with your original plan...

 

TOG is a buffet, everything is provided but you have to load your plate. My plate will look different from someone else's even though we're eating from the same buffet. If you need your plate handed to you with everything on it, you won't like it. I don't think.

 

The quality...yes, that is there but it is also present in other programs that may fit you better.

Have you looked at the 3 week sample? Explored Tapestry?

 

Jessica,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. I really appreciate your feedback since I know you are using TOG with younger ones as well. I don't mind having to "fill my plate" so to say (nice analogy by the way:001_smile:), I just don't like having to spend hours trying to figure out which things to choose. I'm pretty good at deciding which things I think are necessary or can be skipped but I don't want to have to wade through a bunch of info trying to figure out where we are going before I can decide what to cut KWIM?

 

As I mentioned to Heather, I'm still trying to work my way through the sample. There is a lot there and it is a bit overwhelming (maybe a hint that this may not be right for us;)???).

 

Thanks!

[PeterPan]

Country Girl, VP that we do is like TOG streamlined. You still use a variety of books, still have lit guides, writing assignments, activities (admittedly not a ton, but they're possible to add), etc. As you say, the commentary and stuff you don't need of TOG is a lot to wade through. I bought a unit to try back when dd was the age yours is, and we moved on.

 

The other interesting thing to ponder, something no one has brought up, is that TOG tends to turn your history into a LOT of history. Some kids don't even LIKE history, something that's hard to tell at this age but that becomes more obvious in the next year or two. You could do TOG, TQ, and some of the really buffet-like history approaches with students who like history, but if you have a linguistics buff who only tolerates it, then you're in trouble. History teaching is definitely not one size fits all. VP I can ramp up to fit my dd but could do totally differently and more bare bones to fit a dc who doesn't like history. But maybe your ds is a history-lover, since you're pursuing it?

[Country Girl]

It's overkill, so don't even consider it. (I assume you wanted blunt advice?) Sure you could use it over, but would you WANT to?? Curriculum junkies always want something new. Save TOG for later, when you really need it.

.........

 

 

Thanks Elizabeth. We keep seeming to run into each other these days. Maybe I should start paying you for all of the curriculum consulting you have been doing for me:D. I really appreciate your help and opinions. And yes, I wanted brutal honesty (we are talking big money here and I don't want to get sucked into something just 'cause).

 

I completely agree that the need for the a cohesive study isn't necessary for this age. I guess my post was a little misleading, I meant that I need that for me. I need something that I can follow so I know what the plan is and where we are going. I doesn't necessarily have to be chronological, I just need to see the bigger picture.

 

Two, you are worried your lack of historical knowledge will result in you doing a bad job. You CAN'T do a bad job. This is 1st grade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize how little they would really be covering if they were in school? Do you realize that if you picked up ANY of the popular books on american and read them to your dc, your dc would come out knowing more than that?

 

 

You are completely right. Some of my sons favorite books to read this year have been the Heroes in History biographies published by YWAM. We even read one as a co-read aloud and I learned a ton. So if I can learn from reading one simple biography, I know he can.

 

You have given some really good ideas of how I might be able to relax a little and have a little more fun with this. I don't know if you have noticed in my latest thread that you have helped answer, but I think I am going through some type of panic episode :laugh:. I am trying to plan things out for ds's 2nd grade year next year and I'm really stressing that I'm not challenging his advanced mind. I am really struggling with this and balancing it with the fact that he will only be 7 next year and needs to have a chance to have some fun!

 

When will I ever learn?:confused:

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

Well, I sure wish I would have started TOG when my children were younger. I would have liked to be able to educate myself with it, using the Rhetoric level material, while my younger guys use the Lower Grammar.

 

Just like Jessica said, it is a buffet, and you need to be able to pick and choose what you want to do. This age is all about having fun and developing that love of learning.... there is time!! I could write pages and pages of what I tried to cram down my kiddo's throat whe they were younger!!!

 

Also, I always thought I needed it scheduled out for me day by day, but it was actually a hinderance because i would always feel behind!!!

 

I love how you pick and choose what to do in a week, and when to do it. I also could stay up all night planning, cause it is fun:lol:

 

I have tried SOTW alone, MOH alone, My Father's World and Sonlight!!!!! I really like TOG!

 

Hope this helps some..... It is sooooo hard to choose a program isn't it. I hope you find the right fit for you. Just remember, again, have fun, enjoy the journey..... there is soooo much time!!

 

Jen

 

Thanks Jen! Your comment about what you tried to cram down your young one's throats really hit home. I need to figure out a way relax a little and have some fun!:party:

 

I also appreciate your opinion that TOG could be used like this if I let it.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

(Now if I can just stick to this advice myself , I will be doing good, I admit the siren call of TOG beckons me every May when I get the planning bug!)

 

So, can I blame it on the planning bug too???:D

 

It seems like the overwhelming advice here is that I need to relax a little and have some fun. (My dh would totally agree!) I just need to figure out how to do this. I'm glad I'm not alone in this battle and I have everyone's help in this.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

Country Girl, VP that we do is like TOG streamlined. You still use a variety of books, still have lit guides, writing assignments, activities (admittedly not a ton, but they're possible to add), etc. As you say, the commentary and stuff you don't need of TOG is a lot to wade through. I bought a unit to try back when dd was the age yours is, and we moved on.

 

The other interesting thing to ponder, something no one has brought up, is that TOG tends to turn your history into a LOT of history. Some kids don't even LIKE history, something that's hard to tell at this age but that becomes more obvious in the next year or two. You could do TOG, TQ, and some of the really buffet-like history approaches with students who like history, but if you have a linguistics buff who only tolerates it, then you're in trouble. History teaching is definitely not one size fits all. VP I can ramp up to fit my dd but could do totally differently and more bare bones to fit a dc who doesn't like history. But maybe your ds is a history-lover, since you're pursuing it?

 

Elizabeth,

 

We must have been posting at the same time. I would say my son's passion is in science and literature but he does really seem to enjoy history. However, as I mentioned before, we don't desire history to become the focus of our studies. It doesn't seem to fit my son and it doesn't fit the goals dh and I have. I think that is the reason I never even considered TOG in the first place. In fact, I always figured I would just do a textbook type history, short and sweet and over with quickly. However, my eyes have been opened to the value of making history come alive with good books. That is why I have started searching. TOG sparked my interest because I thought it might be a way to combine Bible, Lit, Writing, and History and streamline our day.

 

I haven't ever given VP a real look. I'm going to head over there and see what it is all about.

 

Thanks!

 

Edited to add: I've taken a little bit of a look at the VP website and I'm wondering what exactly it is that you are doing. Is it the scholars program? You mention that there is history, lit guides (which I see separate) and writing assignments. For history I see the Homeschool kits that have the cards and the CD, is this what you are doing?

Thanks again!

[Trivium Academy]

If you isolate the things that matter to you at this stage the vision becomes clearer. Here's what I would do:

 

1. Pick the spine.

At first I choose SOTW as the spine b/c that is what we were using but now I'm strictly the LG spine whatever that is b/c it is age and information appropriate.

 

2. Decide whether you will use the literature selection for the week and who will read it. When it depends on who will read it, that may change whether we do it. If you choose the literature selection there is a corresponding worksheet to do for the week, I love these.

 

3. After #1 and #2 have been chosen, you can decide whether that's enough or if you want more, then I'd look at the In-Depth books and possibly the supplements on the right hand side.

 

4. Geography- what are the objectives for the week? Can these be done on a wall map or will you require mapwork?

 

5. Activity- do you want to have an activity this week? Is the work worth the educational value? I've chosen other activities than what TOG has most of the time but their projects are great.

 

6. If you're using Writing Aids look at Levels 1-2 and see the assignment for the week.

 

You're done. You have a solid week of history and literature planned out. It gets easier as you become familiar with TOG. You don't have to read the teacher's notes and all the other stuff at the LG stage, you're not looking for discussions. Our discussions are about what we read, my dd7 and I share narrations about it and talk about what it would be like to be in the situation that we're reading about.

 

I hope this helps and I hope you find a solution (no matter what it is) to your "what should I use" question.

[Melissa in CA]

If you isolate the things that matter to you at this stage the vision becomes clearer. Here's what I would do:

 

1. Pick the spine.

At first I choose SOTW as the spine b/c that is what we were using but now I'm strictly the LG spine whatever that is b/c it is age and information appropriate.

 

2. Decide whether you will use the literature selection for the week and who will read it. When it depends on who will read it, that may change whether we do it. If you choose the literature selection there is a corresponding worksheet to do for the week, I love these.

 

3. After #1 and #2 have been chosen, you can decide whether that's enough or if you want more, then I'd look at the In-Depth books and possibly the supplements on the right hand side.

 

4. Geography- what are the objectives for the week? Can these be done on a wall map or will you require mapwork?

 

5. Activity- do you want to have an activity this week? Is the work worth the educational value? I've chosen other activities than what TOG has most of the time but their projects are great.

 

6. If you're using Writing Aids look at Levels 1-2 and see the assignment for the week.

 

You're done. You have a solid week of history and literature planned out. It gets easier as you become familiar with TOG. You don't have to read the teacher's notes and all the other stuff at the LG stage, you're not looking for discussions. Our discussions are about what we read, my dd7 and I share narrations about it and talk about what it would be like to be in the situation that we're reading about.

 

I hope this helps and I hope you find a solution (no matter what it is) to your "what should I use" question.

 

That was a great TOG weekly walk-through Jessica! :-)

 

Country Girl, I think that if TOG still seems overwhelming to you, that you should honestly consider Winter Promise. It is not only very simple to follow, but not scheduled at an overwhelming pace...meaning it won't take over your school day! ;)

 

I think TOG is a wonderful choice and I plan to use it this next year as well, but my instincts are telling me that WP might be a better fit for you at this moment and time. The history books are quite engaging...I enjoyed many of the American Story II books and they are WAY below my grade level! :lol:

 

Anyhow, just something to consider... :001_smile:

[TMarie]

Country Girl,

Hi, I haven't read all the posts, but wanted to give my words of advice. :001_smile: Buy the books you will one day use with tapestry.

 

I've known all along that TOG was in my future, but like you didn't want to start too soon. I listened to folks who said my kids where too young. When my oldest reached dialectic age we started TOG and I'm kicking myself for not buying all those great lower grammar & upper grammar books from the start. We spent our money on other (good) things, but they don't correlate well with TOG. Now I cannot afford to go back and buy the books suggested for my young guy. He ends up with a hodge-podge while my older dc get to sail along in TOG with the correct books.

 

Just my 2 cents...

(ps. I don't think the lower grammar of TOG would be overkill. It's all about reading good books with your little ones.)

[PeterPan]

Ooo, TMarie is right on! And she's put into words exactly what I was trying to say, that for *us* at least, VP is like TOG streamlined. If you get a VP catalog, it's just as rich literature-driven as TOG. I keep all my books, and if I went into TOG when my dd is older, my younger would have basically everything needed to do the lower levels. The approaches, as far as using books, are the same. In fact there was something Marcia Somerville said at the convention last year that I meant to share with you. Speaking of the grammar stage she said, "Trust much to the reading of good books." And I'm just saying to chew on that in the light of this constant pressure we feel to turn it into a zillion analytical activities (which I'm telling you I've done! lol). Here the woman who WROTE the program where you could do all that was saying with just a young child the main point is to expose them and let them read. The analysis and connections are for later. You shouldn't feel pressured to do more. They don't need it developmentally and won't retain.

 

BTW, if I was harsh in my previous posts, I apologize. I've been awfully irritable lately (since I got pregnant). Guess I need more practice in being pregnant and speaking so I can learn to be soft about it. But what I was saying still stands, that I've been there and advise not guilt-tripping yourself. Understand the difference between teaching logic stage and grammar stage and don't compel yourself to do more than is developmentally necessary or useful. It's the wisdom of the veterans speaking here, lol, even if I'm not very veteran. If you don't like that, then search the boards and see all the moms who've bought TOG for a 1st or 2nd grader and put it aside. It's not that it's bad, just that it's overkill. Yes you "could," but you'd have to streamline, keep from being overwhelmed. Exceedingly few moms around here, from what I've seen watching on the boards for 4 years, moms with equally bright kids, have stuck with it at that age. You can do searches of the old boards by googling "TOG site:wtmboards.com" Do that and see what I mean. You can responses for the past few years on the boards if you google. I remember a thread where I discussed TOG with this lady (not sure of her name or if she's on the new boards). She raved and raved about doing TOG with her young one, told about all the cool things she was doing (totally enjoying it) and a year later had dropped. It wasn't that it was bad, just overwhelming for that stage. There are simpler ways to get there and you have to find that balance for yourself. I just wanted you to make that decision based on correct information, the thought that you AREN'T trying to do logic-stage activities and analysis, only grammar stage. When you think of it that way, you don't feel so guilty or look for more than you need. Just as a clear example, you might look at History Odyssey, which does a fabulous job of dividing its books into levels and being both rigorous AND age/developmentally appropriate at that level.

 

Ok, now about VP. I started VP 2nd semester of 1st grade. No, I'm not doing Scholars but actually doing the history program myself. Scholars is a LOT of work, but very good. The feedback about it on the VP_Elementary yahoo group is very good. I think people who already have their groove don't need it, where people just starting out or less confident or who really want written out lesson plans find it very beneficial. I've considered it (20 times over, haha!), but I usually decide to just keep tailoring what I'm doing to my dd. She's young and needs age-appropriate writing assignments but extra and more challenging reading. It's just easier if I tailor it to her.

 

For a sciency dc or anyone who wants "just the facts," VP can be a LIFESAVER. It quantifies the basics you're expected to learn (read the summary on the card, do the weekly worksheet that becomes your memory work), but leaves you lots of room to go beyond that as much as you want. So it can become almost like TOG lower and upper grammar, or it can be extremely streamlined for the dc who really doesn't like history. Ironically, a lot of ladies on the VP_Elementary list are history lovers, go figure. They like it because it gives them structure and lets them do as much as they want. I like it because I DON'T like history and can handle it, wrap my brain around it as a bare minimum of what to expect, an overall plan. Then I give her lots of resources to read, activity books and kits to explore with. I know it looks pretty dry, but it's what you make of it. Definitely get the catalog, because literature-rich it definitely is! Think of VP as TOG taken down to just grades 1-6.

 

I wanted to comment on something else, and hopefully I'm not being too blunt here again. Did you say you're doing HOD? That's a pretty big swing to go from HOD to TOG. I'd advice going somewhere in the middle.

 

Now about content/subject. I forget, are you wanting to study american? If so, I agree with the others that I would pursue WP. If you're willing to do ancients in 2nd (which would be AWESOME btw), then go ahead and start VP. But I wouldn't jump in at the tail end of the VP sequence with a little one; start at the beginning. We surveyed geography in K5, american in 1st, and then started VP OTAE (Old Testament/Ancient Egypt). My dd enjoyed it a LOT and doing ancients has connected nicely with her latin studies. My dh wanted me to study american first, but after that he really didn't care. I mention that in case your dh has opinions on it. And nothing says doing anciencts precludes continuing to reading about american history. We've been doing the Middle Ages this year, but my dd has read tons and tons of american history, especially the COFA's.

 

So take your time, figure out what you're looking for. Don't overcorrect or swing too hard in the opposite direction. Don't spend lots of money to get something that is way more than you need or feel compelled to try to attempt things that are not developmentally appropriate. Do focus on the basics and use your history time as a foil to work on writing, etc. Do read WTM to get more ideas on how to use history to work on the basics.

 

Just for your trivia, not every dc likes historical fiction. Some kids just plain don't, just warning you. And nothing says you can't use lots of literature and supplements WITH a standard textbook approach! You could do the BJU Heritage Studies for instance and flesh it out with lots of literature. I'm considering doing the Abeka4 textbook this fall and fleshing it out with lots of stuff. You CAN do that. You're going to be fine and whatever you chose will be fine. As long as you have fun along the way, really DO whatever you're doing, and have some sense of your order or overall plan (american this year, start ancients in 2nd and continue to 6th, then TOG), etc., then you'll look back and be happy. And that's really my final thought, that having an overall plan of where you're going (not so much curriculum, but the sequence or plan) is important. That's better than chosing a curriculum here, a curriculum there, and then looking back a few years later with regret that you didn't do what you wanted to do. Think a bit long-term and develop a plan. Remember that he's going to have budding writing skills he's going to be able to use in the history, etc, which is why those assignments are included. And as far as having TOG cover for your writing, while I think an experienced mom who has taught through all the levels/grades could use Writing Aids and do that, I think a mom going through those stages for the first time would find it much easier to have a separate writing curriculum, just my personal opinion and warning. So you'd be paying all that money and it would basically be history. You'd still need writing, grammar, and all the other basics. LA is going to take up a huge portion of your day in 2nd, 3rd, 4th grade, so think about that.

 

I better go, I hear feet! :)

[Langhaven]

Having used TOG for a number of years, I agree with TMarie. Using the book list would be beneficial and the fine arts and activities - even geography ideas are great for a child that age. TOG would be a lot for a student as young as yours, however, that he is your main student frees you up to do lots of extras beyond your 3 R approach. If you read the literature and read alouds, introduced him to the ettiquette of the literature worksheets, narration, oral exams, geography and a bit of writing, I don't think it would be a waste at all. Then you would have it for the next time. The tendency would be to be overwhelmed or feel pressured that you have to do ALL of it. As others have said, it is a buffet style approach - take what you want and leave the rest.

 

That being said, it would be worth it, perhaps, to use the sample and see if you like it enough to spend the money. It would be great practice for all of you for when the "real thing" comes and you may not experience with being overwhelmed or awkward with the way TOG does things when the time comes to buckle down.

 

Pam

[Country Girl]

If you isolate the things that matter to you at this stage the vision becomes clearer. Here's what I would do:

 

1. Pick the spine.

At first I choose SOTW as the spine b/c that is what we were using but now I'm strictly the LG spine whatever that is b/c it is age and information appropriate.

 

2. Decide whether you will use the literature selection for the week and who will read it. When it depends on who will read it, that may change whether we do it. If you choose the literature selection there is a corresponding worksheet to do for the week, I love these.

 

3. After #1 and #2 have been chosen, you can decide whether that's enough or if you want more, then I'd look at the In-Depth books and possibly the supplements on the right hand side.

 

4. Geography- what are the objectives for the week? Can these be done on a wall map or will you require mapwork?

 

5. Activity- do you want to have an activity this week? Is the work worth the educational value? I've chosen other activities than what TOG has most of the time but their projects are great.

 

6. If you're using Writing Aids look at Levels 1-2 and see the assignment for the week.

 

You're done. You have a solid week of history and literature planned out. It gets easier as you become familiar with TOG. You don't have to read the teacher's notes and all the other stuff at the LG stage, you're not looking for discussions. Our discussions are about what we read, my dd7 and I share narrations about it and talk about what it would be like to be in the situation that we're reading about.

 

I hope this helps and I hope you find a solution (no matter what it is) to your "what should I use" question.

 

Jessica,

This is awesome! I have been working my way through the sample after reading your suggestions and it is making sense. I am only through the first week but I can see that it really isn't that confusing. Also, would you mind telling me a little about the Loom and how it fits in?

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

Country Girl, I think that if TOG still seems overwhelming to you, that you should honestly consider Winter Promise. It is not only very simple to follow, but not scheduled at an overwhelming pace...meaning it won't take over your school day! ;)

 

I think TOG is a wonderful choice and I plan to use it this next year as well, but my instincts are telling me that WP might be a better fit for you at this moment and time. The history books are quite engaging...I enjoyed many of the American Story II books and they are WAY below my grade level! :lol:

 

Anyhow, just something to consider... :001_smile:

 

Melissa,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. I am still trying to figure this all out but I'll take a closer look at WP as well.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

Country Girl,

Hi, I haven't read all the posts, but wanted to give my words of advice. :001_smile: Buy the books you will one day use with tapestry.

 

I've known all along that TOG was in my future, but like you didn't want to start too soon. I listened to folks who said my kids where too young. When my oldest reached dialectic age we started TOG and I'm kicking myself for not buying all those great lower grammar & upper grammar books from the start. We spent our money on other (good) things, but they don't correlate well with TOG. Now I cannot afford to go back and buy the books suggested for my young guy. He ends up with a hodge-podge while my older dc get to sail along in TOG with the correct books.

 

Just my 2 cents...

(ps. I don't think the lower grammar of TOG would be overkill. It's all about reading good books with your little ones.)

 

 

Thanks for this advice, it really makes a lot of sense. I could definitely see how if I didn't buy the books now I could regret it later.

 

Also, thanks for your thoughts on TOG for lg. I'm still working my way through the samples but I can see how it is possible.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

In fact there was something Marcia Somerville said at the convention last year that I meant to share with you. Speaking of the grammar stage she said, "Trust much to the reading of good books." And I'm just saying to chew on that in the light of this constant pressure we feel to turn it into a zillion analytical activities (which I'm telling you I've done! lol). Here the woman who WROTE the program where you could do all that was saying with just a young child the main point is to expose them and let them read. The analysis and connections are for later. You shouldn't feel pressured to do more. They don't need it developmentally and won't retain.

[/Quote]

 

Thanks for this advice! While I believe it with my head, I need to figure out how to live it in our hs :001_unsure:

 

BTW, if I was harsh in my previous posts, I apologize. I've been awfully irritable lately (since I got pregnant). Guess I need more practice in being pregnant and speaking so I can learn to be soft about it. But what I was saying still stands, that I've been there and advise not guilt-tripping yourself. Understand the difference between teaching logic stage and grammar stage and don't compel yourself to do more than is developmentally necessary or useful. It's the wisdom of the veterans speaking here, lol, even if I'm not very veteran.

[/Quote]

 

Don't apologize, I didn't take it as harsh as all. I want honest feedback and I appreciate the time you have taken to give your advice. Again, I believe what you are saying about grammar age kids and doing things that are developmentally appropriate. However, with a advanced kiddo I get a little confused and flustered about exactly what that is. :confused:

 

Just as a clear example, you might look at History Odyssey, which does a fabulous job of dividing its books into levels and being both rigorous AND age/developmentally appropriate at that level.

[/Quote]

I'll take a look at this, thanks for the suggestion.

 

Also, thanks for expanding on how you use VP. This definitely looks like a possibility.

 

I wanted to comment on something else, and hopefully I'm not being too blunt here again. Did you say you're doing HOD? That's a pretty big swing to go from HOD to TOG. I'd advice going somewhere in the middle. [/Quote]

 

Yes, we were doing HOD for history only this year and it actually went pretty well. However, I was only using the history portion (and that was mostly just because I already had it) and I'm not really sure I want to buy the next program just for history. Plus, I'm really trying to figure out how I can streamline things for the years to come, once I have to incorporate my other dc in with ds.

 

Now about content/subject. I forget, are you wanting to study american? If so, I agree with the others that I would pursue WP. If you're willing to do ancients in 2nd (which would be AWESOME btw), then go ahead and start VP. But I wouldn't jump in at the tail end of the VP sequence with a little one; start at the beginning. We surveyed geography in K5, american in 1st, and then started VP OTAE (Old Testament/Ancient Egypt). My dd enjoyed it a LOT and doing ancients has connected nicely with her latin studies. My dh wanted me to study american first, but after that he really didn't care. I mention that in case your dh has opinions on it. And nothing says doing anciencts precludes continuing to reading about american history. We've been doing the Middle Ages this year, but my dd has read tons and tons of american history, especially the COFA's.[/Quote]

 

I'm not really set on what period we study. We did American this year and ds enjoyed that. He has expressed an interest in studying this more or studying knights and castles :D. He is quite sensitive to other religions, gods, etc. and so I have been thinking skipping the ancients might be best at this time. If I went with TOG I was thinking of jumping into year 2?????

 

So take your time, figure out what you're looking for. Don't overcorrect or swing too hard in the opposite direction. Don't spend lots of money to get something that is way more than you need or feel compelled to try to attempt things that are not developmentally appropriate.[/Quote]

This is one of my biggest concerns with TOG. That, while it might work great, that I will be spending a ton of money on something that is way more than I need.

 

Again, I really appreciate the time you have taken to help me out!

[Country Girl]

Having used TOG for a number of years, I agree with TMarie. Using the book list would be beneficial and the fine arts and activities - even geography ideas are great for a child that age. TOG would be a lot for a student as young as yours, however, that he is your main student frees you up to do lots of extras beyond your 3 R approach. If you read the literature and read alouds, introduced him to the ettiquette of the literature worksheets, narration, oral exams, geography and a bit of writing, I don't think it would be a waste at all. Then you would have it for the next time. The tendency would be to be overwhelmed or feel pressured that you have to do ALL of it. As others have said, it is a buffet style approach - take what you want and leave the rest.

 

That being said, it would be worth it, perhaps, to use the sample and see if you like it enough to spend the money. It would be great practice for all of you for when the "real thing" comes and you may not experience with being overwhelmed or awkward with the way TOG does things when the time comes to buckle down.

 

Pam

 

Pam, thanks for your thoughts. I am going through the samples and seeing that it really could be do-able with a young one. However, I can see how one could feel a need to do it all and I'm not sure how I would handle that. Normally, I'm pretty good at weeding out the excess, but in this case, the excess still looks good so it might be harder to weed out:D. I'm going to continue working my way through the sample weeks and maybe even give it a try like you suggested.

 

Thanks!

[Langhaven]

Sometimes the weed-out on what to do and what to skip comes easily. It's a matter of what books are available at the public library (and if they arrive on time from interlibrary loan!!!) :glare:

 

One thought.... If your child likes to do crafts, the lapbooks are great. There have been times that we have simply read the books and filled out the lapbooks!

 

Pam

[Trivium Academy]

Look here at the TOG website

 

And this is how I use it for LG:

 

When I'm planning out a week, I read the week's plans in my year plan and when I have an idea of what we'll do, I print out (from the Loom):

 

- Geography objectives

- Student Activity Pages, these are the literature worksheets

- Project ideas that I want

 

For LG this usually involves two pages, which I put in my dd7's weekly file for the work to be done.

 

For Week 24 of Year 2 Redesigned I have printed out from the Loom which is a digital file of what I have in the Year Plan:

1. The page which identifies Fine Arts & Activities and Geography objectives for the week

2. Literature page (SAP: Student Activity Page) for The Courage of Sarah Noble

3. Lower Grammar History Response Page (just in case I want to use it) which is a notebooking page.

 

and I also have:

1. Grammar level map from MapAids with the Teacher Map printed on the back. This way I can decide whether to have her label the grammar map or just use the teacher map to show her details about what we're reading about.

 

2. Two photocopied coloring pages from a Dover coloring book recommended in the lesson plans. (Dd7 actually prefers Dover coloring pages now, she likes that they look real)

 

3. A photocopy of the diorama we'll build for this week.

 

I plan an entire unit (9-10 weeks) during our week off in between units, now that I'm familiar with TOG and know what we would like to do within a week- the planning is pretty simple.

[PeterPan]

Country Girl, two more things from what you said. On his sensitivity to false gods, etc., that doesn't mean you can't do ancients. It just means you don't talk about the false gods. VP focuses on the TRUTH and doesn't confuse the two or go way into the beliefs of the greeks and romans. You could ask on the VP list, but I think you'd have no trouble doing OTAE in a way that would suit him. And it's actually rather fascinating. For instance when you talk about the plagues, you do a worksheet that shows how each of the plagues was a slam on one of the false gods of the egyptians. That's as absolutely close as you get to discussing them (no delving into mythology, no exploring them as equally valid), just that instance where you're comparing them to the biblical account and the TRUTH in order to understand the truth of what was happening there. And even that you could have skipped.

 

Now the 2nd thing you asked (or mentioned, as you wish, lol) was pondering how you teach history in a way that fits an advanced child. I think that's really something important to ponder, and it cuts to the heart of why I wrote you, because it doesn't necessarily mean treating your bright 7 yo (he'll be 7 by then), like he's 12, kwim? It means finding out what HE needs as a bright 7 yo. And I think that's a bit different for different kids. For my dd it means reading stacks, I mean STACKS of books on topics. It means I leave her alone with a pile of books on a topic that's so boring it would drive me to tears and she devours it. It means she cries when I don't give her more history books. You might have a dc who is really into discussion, concepts, or all things political. My dh does that with dd, and as he's the history buff, I try to nurture that. (In other words, I don't even TRY to go there, lol.) If I could suggest, I think for a kid who tolerates history but is more the mathy/linguistics sort, it could mean getting them into something that satisfies their itch to see the big picture. It means getting them into a curriculum with streamlined facts and expectations. See kids think in different ways. My dd is into relationships, sequences, etc. where I'm the big picture person. (I'm the verbal/math sort, in case you can't tell, lol.) So history for me makes no sense at all, absolutely no sense, unless I can see the big picture, a flow chart, the outline. When I read a book I ALWAYS look at the table of contents first! But some people are the opposite type of thinkers (Cynthia Tobias has a helpful book on this, you should get it) and do well with the slow, linear progression of your typical history approach.

 

If I could offer another suggestion, google and do some searching for posts abbeyej made on the wtmboards.com (the old format boards here). Some posts were on accelerated, some regular. I think she mainly hangs out on the general board now, not sure. In any case, what you'll see is a different way of approach history, and her ds is incredibly, horribly bright. Might give you some ideas. One year she went through CHOW with him. I think last year (or this? I lose track) she started through Hakim's History of US. But remember how I was saying some kids like to get lost in all those details (think TOG, tons of details) and some people need to see the big picture? Well she's taking her math/linguistics ds through these spines that are age-appropriate ways for him to see the big picture. She's chosing an approach that fits his style of thinking and making the quantity and writing style fit his ability to comprehend. That is an excellent example of how to make the lesson fit a bright dc. It's not just about covering more material or taking it to a deeper level, it's about making your approach fit the way their brains work. I don't have to do that with my dd because she's the total opposite of me. She would THRIVE on TOG. In fact, it's one of the things on my serious list for what to jump to when we exhaust what VP can do for us. (That's why I went to Marcia Somerville's talks, etc.) But as a non-history lover, I can totally see where that wouldn't fit all kids. Some kids are going to be more like me and like some of the kids you see around here who do better with something more streamlined, more big picture. They may find facts or architecture or some other aspect more interesting than historical fiction. You have to play around with it till you find what turns them on. It's no good to buy a bunch of books that aren't the type they find stimulating or memorable, kwim?

 

It might be none of that applies to you, but I'm throwing it out for your consideration. I advise a streamlined, big-picture approach with kids who think that way. You go in more detail and delve into things when you have a kid who likes that. They could be equally bright but think in totally different ways. Some kids are very attuned to philosophical issues. My dd isn't, but she can tell you the mother of so and so, who married whom, and will look through books searching for timelines on what happened to Abe Lincoln's MOTHER for pity's sake. His MOTHER, can you imagine! That social thing is a big deal to her. Do I expect your math/science/linguistics boy to care about Abe Lincoln's mother? But that's what it means to teach history to my particular dd. You're looking for what it means to teach history to YOUR particular dc. I'm just suggesting that it doesn't mean feeling compelled to do things meant for older kids. It more means figuring out what clicks in their brains and bringing that fodder to them. Sorry if that's really vague. Find Abbeyej's posts and read how she does things. Might give you some ideas.

[Trivium Academy]

I just wanted to make sure you understand that I'm not suggesting you use TOG, I'm just providing answers to your questions. I know it is hard to make a decision about whether something is right for you unless you understand it. I hope you find something that "fits", whatever it is.

[Country Girl]

Sometimes the weed-out on what to do and what to skip comes easily. It's a matter of what books are available at the public library (and if they arrive on time from interlibrary loan!!!) :glare:

 

One thought.... If your child likes to do crafts, the lapbooks are great. There have been times that we have simply read the books and filled out the lapbooks!

 

Pam

 

I can definitely see how this could become the case, especially with our library:rolleyes:

[Country Girl]

I just wanted to make sure you understand that I'm not suggesting you use TOG, I'm just providing answers to your questions. I know it is hard to make a decision about whether something is right for you unless you understand it. I hope you find something that "fits", whatever it is.

 

 

Yep, I got that and I really appreciate you helping me figure out what it is that does "fit" us.

 

Also, thanks for describing the Loom a little more to me and how you use it in your hs.

 

I wonder if I can bother you with one more question. I notice you are doing TOG y2. Did you start here or did you do y1 last year? If so, has it been a problem jumping in mid-cycle?

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

Country Girl, two more things from what you said. On his sensitivity to false gods, etc., that doesn't mean you can't do ancients. It just means you don't talk about the false gods. VP focuses on the TRUTH and doesn't confuse the two or go way into the beliefs of the greeks and romans. You could ask on the VP list, but I think you'd have no trouble doing OTAE in a way that would suit him. And it's actually rather fascinating. For instance when you talk about the plagues, you do a worksheet that shows how each of the plagues was a slam on one of the false gods of the egyptians. That's as absolutely close as you get to discussing them (no delving into mythology, no exploring them as equally valid), just that instance where you're comparing them to the biblical account and the TRUTH in order to understand the truth of what was happening there. And even that you could have skipped.

[/Quote]

 

Ok, this sounds doable, thanks for expanding on the way VP handles the ancients.

 

Now the 2nd thing you asked (or mentioned, as you wish, lol) was pondering how you teach history in a way that fits an advanced child. I think that's really something important to ponder, and it cuts to the heart of why I wrote you, because it doesn't necessarily mean treating your bright 7 yo (he'll be 7 by then), like he's 12, kwim? It means finding out what HE needs as a bright 7 yo. [/Quote]

 

I need a lightbulb smilie because what you said here just really struck a chord and made a lightbulb come on for me! This is what I think I've really been struggling with, and not even knowing it. The only way I can really think of to challenge my ds is to move ahead to the next thing, but I need to figure out how to challenge him at his level and for his learning style. Now, if only I could figure out what that is. I ready the book by Tobias a few years ago when we started hs but I think I need to go back and re-read it. I know that I am definitely a big picture sort of person, I like to know where we are going and how things are going to fit into that big picture (I also read the TOC first:D). However, I still really haven't figured out how ds learns best. For the most part, he is really an easy kid to teach and adapts pretty well to whatever style we are using. But I know he has to have a learning style that is better for him and I need to find that.

 

If I could offer another suggestion, google and do some searching for posts abbeyej made on the wtmboards.com (the old format boards here). Some posts were on accelerated, some regular. I think she mainly hangs out on the general board now, not sure. In any case, what you'll see is a different way of approach history, and her ds is incredibly, horribly bright. Might give you some ideas. [/Quote]

 

Thanks for this suggestion, I'll take a look and see what I can find. You have really given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate it!

 

Thanks!

[Trivium Academy]

I switched from using SOTW to using SOTW with TOG and then to just using TOG. TOG has SOTW scheduled within its alternative resources.

 

They lined up pretty easily.

TOG Year 1- Ancients 5000 BC-400 AD

TOG Year 2- 400-1800 (SOTW 2 goes from 400-1600)

TOG Year 3- 1800-1900

TOG Year 4 - 1900-now

 

Since we switched mid-year from SOTW 2, TOG Year 2 really extended our studies by 18 weeks to cover 1600-1800 events. But switching in the cycle, from one year to another shouldn't cause any problems unless what you're using now ends in the middle of a TOG Year time frame.

 

Then you'd have to decide whether to buy 2 year plans at a time or buy it by units, Unit 3 and 4 of Year 1 and Unit 1 and 2 of Year 2 or whether to skip it this time around (which I'd advise) and just start the next year plan.

 

The main hurdle you have is figuring out how Tapestry would look in your homeschool, once you figure that out it is simple.

 

More info about switching to TOG and the four year plans

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/tog_fast/FAQ/four-year.htm

[Country Girl]

I switched from using SOTW to using SOTW with TOG and then to just using TOG. TOG has SOTW scheduled within its alternative resources.

 

They lined up pretty easily.

TOG Year 1- Ancients 5000 BC-400 AD

TOG Year 2- 400-1800 (SOTW 2 goes from 400-1600)

TOG Year 3- 1800-1900

TOG Year 4 - 1900-now

 

Since we switched mid-year from SOTW 2, TOG Year 2 really extended our studies by 18 weeks to cover 1600-1800 events. But switching in the cycle, from one year to another shouldn't cause any problems unless what you're using now ends in the middle of a TOG Year time frame.

 

Then you'd have to decide whether to buy 2 year plans at a time or buy it by units, Unit 3 and 4 of Year 1 and Unit 1 and 2 of Year 2 or whether to skip it this time around (which I'd advise) and just start the next year plan.

 

The main hurdle you have is figuring out how Tapestry would look in your homeschool, once you figure that out it is simple.

 

More info about switching to TOG and the four year plans

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/tog_fast/FAQ/four-year.htm

 

Thanks again. I appreciate your input on jumping in mid-cycle. Like you said, now the big hurdle is figuring out if TOG is for us.

 

Thanks!

[EricaB]

I can't speak with a seasoned opinion on this, but I did spend awhile at the TOG booth since I am interested in this for the future. My husband loved it and our only problem was that we loved different portions of it and will need to agree what we cover and in what fashion. We DID agree that it was WAY too much for our little ones now, even with the meticulous age break down and age appropriate activities that TOG offers. It is a wonderful program and we look forward to using it at a future date. Instead, we purchased History for Little Pilgrims to merely get conversation started and I am going to search for some additional age appropriate historical fiction stories. I too, have been looking at Winter Promise and Sonlight books that might be an option for the future, but right now, having fun learning is where our family is at right now.