A math problem.

[2smartones]

One of my kids is driving me crazy. He's a visual learner. Very visual. He picked up multiplication and division and ran with it from the moment it was introduced. Fractions... same thing. He's freakishly great with calendars and dates. He can tell me what we did on a certain date in the past, but he can also tell me what we'll do on a certain date in the future. From that date, he can tell me the date on the following week and so on, so I know he's able to "see" any number + 7 in his mind.

 

So why can he stilllllllllllllll not add and subtract?! I mean... rediculous stuff like 2+3?! I've asked him straight out why he can blurt out some numbers with no thought at all, but he can't add or subtract (quickly) to save his life. He has to use fingers or manipulatives, and even then, he sometimes mis-counts them. WHY?! I just don't get it! We've tried drill. We've tried manipulatives. We've tried "give it time". What the heck am I doing wrong, or what's wrong with him? He says subtraction is easier than addition, but he's not very good with that either. I'm not sure why he would say that. I don't understand why complex math is easier than the absolute basics. He's able to do + and - when it's in a word problem. Not an issue at all. I mean, he's even touched on a little geometry already, so what's the deal? Everything in life isn't a picture or a word problem. I know visual learners are supposed to be like this, but please help me before one of us goes bald. LOL!

 

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Edited March 24, 2011 by 2smartones

[MaMa2005]

My DS is exactly the same way. We have drilled in every imaginable way known to man. At the convention in SC, I finally broke down and bought the Aerobics for the Mind games (Muggins and Knock-Out). We started playing on Monday, but only if he did the mental math quickly and no use of FINGERS. Guess what? A miracle has occurred in our house because DS now does the problems without his fingers. For some reason, the use of the dice in the game has been just the extra push he has needed.

 

With all that rambling (I haven't had my tea yet), maybe some math games using dice would help.

 

Here is the link to the Aerobics for the Mind - http://www.mugginsmath.com/

[2smartones]

Hmm... I'm really not sure if it's a photographic memory of the calendar. Perhaps, but each month would look different, so that would be a lot of pictures to visualize. You might be right, though, since he can look at a date in the 20's and give me the next date in the single digits. He didn't learn multiplication with a table. He learned it through skip-counting when he was about 4 or 5.

 

He didn't have an answer for me about why he can't do + or - other than subtraction was easier. (I'd rather not give his age.) Some areas are normal or a little behind (like handwriting), but some are very accelerated. If you take math facts out of the picture, his subject matter ranges from 4th thru 12th grade. Not sure why math facts make him look like a kindergartener. He's upset that I won't let him start LoF until he masters all the things listed as prerequisites. I want him to see LoF as a reward and really enjoy it without having a struggle. He enjoys other math "books", so I know he'll enjoy the story of Fred. (I let him read the first chapter of a couple of them just for fun.) I think the only other thing he really struggles with A LOT is following directions... whether written or oral. Doesn't matter.

Edited March 24, 2011 by 2smartones

[Embassy]

I would be confused too.

 

What kind of multiplication and division problems can he do? Is it possible that he memorized those or is he able to compute those answers?

 

Can he do adding and subtracting when it is put into a meaningful context (i.e counting how many pieces of candy two people have, counting money for a purchase, etc)? How are his counting skills? Has he mastered one to one correspondence? Is he able to do adding and subtracting using a number line?

 

What type of math programs have you used and for how long?

[Dmmetler]

Hmmm...it's not quite so drastic here, but I understand what you're saying. My DD has no trouble doing math facts in harder problems, or in word problems, but is extremely slow if I quiz her on them separately-and sometimes will answer the same problem incorrectly several times in a row, getting more and more frustrated, until the tears fall.

 

My theory is that it's mental-she knows I know she knows how to add, so she sees no purpose in showing me again. She did the same thing in school last year, which drove her Kindergarten teacher half around the bend-because she KNEW DD knew the basics, but she was required to test quarterly, and DD simply wouldn't cooperate with the easy parts of the test. What worked was to bring in someone who DD didn't know to do the testing. I've used the same trick, except that I use computer software to do the testing-and on those, she has NO trouble showing that she does, indeed, know the facts and that she knows them pretty fluently.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Dmmetler2

[2smartones]

What kind of multiplication and division problems can he do? Is it possible that he memorized those or is he able to compute those answers?

 

He's still doing simple ones well, but multi-digit not well ... up to 12 is good, and up to 15 is "just ok". Back to the "following directions" part... he's not good at doing multi-digit problems because he seems to have a Lego stuck in his ear. Perhaps Darth Vadar is luring him to the dark side? It's a real possibility now that he's sucked dad into his x-box world, too. :lol:

 

Can he do adding and subtracting when it is put into a meaningful context (i.e counting how many pieces of candy two people have, counting money for a purchase, etc)? How are his counting skills? Has he mastered one to one correspondence? Is he able to do adding and subtracting using a number line?

Counting is fine. He can add and subtract when given something visual. (For example, he can picture a high rise building's stairwell, stand on one number, and count up or down to the number he needs... but that takes FOREVER.) I don't think counting is the issue. Oh, and he HATES number lines. Hates them!

 

What type of math programs have you used and for how long?

 

I've tried them all... curriculum and supplemental... if they're fairly cheap, that is. I need something that doesn't cost a fortune (which is why we haven't done Math-u-See yet.) We've done a couple of years of Abeka (moves too quickly and jumps around too much), Miquon (fun, and he really likes that one, but I don't think it drill facts enough), Primary Grade Challenge Math (fun, but harder than it needs to be when you don't know facts), Teaching Textbooks (just the free trial ... he claims he doesn't like the computer format, but he can spend hours using the computer for anything else... I think it was just because it's math), Rod & Staff for about a year (he would shut down when he saw a whole page with nothing but facts in a single color), um... what else? Oh, Horizons was a lot like Abeka. We looked at Saxon and Singapore, but he haaaaaaaated those!! (I didn't really like them either. Too complicated for the teacher, especially Saxon. ;) ) What else have we tried? I don't know. I've thought about RightStart, but I'm just sick of spending money I don't have on a program I don't think will work.

 

His conceptual math level is WAY above his ability to do simple facts. Do I just need to do speed drills and pull teeth until he learns them? I'm seriously tempted to go back to Rod & Staff and stick with it until he has the facts down cold. I just KNOW he's going to take off as soon as he knows them. I fully expect him to skip a couple of grade levels in a matter of months as soon as it finally clicks for him. I fully expect him to absorb LoF Fractions & Decimals very quickly. He learns in spurts, that's for sure. I just don't know why this tiny area has lagged behind all the others for so long. It's holding him back from doing multi-digit problems, and it's holding him back from doing any "fun" math. :(

[2smartones]

Ok, so I just talked to him again. I still don't "get" him. I wrote on a piece of paper: three, 3, and ... Then, I said, "I'm going to say a number, and I want you to point to the one in your head when I show you the paper." I said 3, showed him the paper, and he pointed to the number 3. I told him that I wanted him to try seeing the dots instead, gave him another number, but he struggled and said he still saw the number first. I don't know if that means anything or not. If I didn't know him, I'd say he doesn't understand one-to-one relationship, but I know for a FACT he does, and he has for a very long time. I asked him 2+3, and he said 6. When I asked him how he got that number, he said he looked at the legos in his head, and then mentally looked at them as he counted them (and this time got 7). I asked him to be the teacher and show me how to get 17+4. He couldn't show me. He said the answer was 10. I asked him to try again and really show me what he's thinking, and he said he couldn't, because the answer was just "there". He just KNEW the answer, and this time it was 8. :confused: I've been teaching him plain old addition for years. What. the. heck?!?! What am I missing?

 

I asked him why he though the hard stuff was easy and the easy stuff was hard. He said he didn't know, it was just fun.

 

*going balder by the second*

 

For what it's worth, I started over completely a couple of weeks ago drilling one fact at a time for a week (all the 0's plus something then all the 1's plus something). He got really, really good with them up through 3's. I just asked him 2+3, though, and he said 6. He had it down cold a week ago, and this isn't the first time he's done it, either.

 

I'm about ready to drop math completely for a year. LOL!!!!

Edited March 24, 2011 by 2smartones

[Embassy]

I have non-sequential learners. I use a sequential math program along with approaching more difficult math concepts. I might give him a sequential math program that goes back to the basics and go slow until he has solidified the basics. I might focus on one that teaches a child to think mathematically rather than memorize facts. Knowing 3+3=6 is just as important to me as knowing that 2+3 can't equal 8. At the same time you can delve into more difficult math concepts using things like living books.

[2smartones]

Thanks for both of those ideas. I'm going to run out and buy some hair restorer and give these a try. :bigear: LOL!

[AK_Mom4]

I saw something like this with my older DD who is a really-really visual learner. Not exactly, but close. She would *just know* the answer - and it was usually wrong somehow. Complicated by the fact she was using Everyday Math in public school (but I won't go there.....). We caught this when she was about 9yo, so it had been going on for some time.

 

Like someone else suggested, we took her back to the beginning with manipulatives - spoons in our case - and made her work tons of chill-and-drill pages of mixed add/subtract facts using the spoons until she got every one right. Then, she got to do them all over again without the spoons. Then we drilled the times tables - page after page of mixed problems.

 

It took most of the summer, but by the time she started 4th grade, we had her straightened out. This is the DD who can still tell me that "Tuesday is green, but the number 5 is red". I have no clue what is going on in her brain.

 

BTW - she is doing fabulously now that she has hit physics and pre-calc. Apparently those subjects were made for brains like hers......

[2smartones]

"Tuesday is green, but the number 5 is red". I have no clue what is going on in her brain.

I know EXACTLY what that means!! That's ME!! (... and no, Tuesday and 5 are both yellow. :tongue_smilie:) I see in color. Always have. I studied for tests by using colored pens and highlighters. I would have page after page looking like a rainbow, but I always got the best score in the class, so people didn't question it. :D

[FFkm]

One of my kids is driving me crazy. He's a visual learner. Very visual...

 

So why can he stilllllllllllllll not add and subtract?! I mean... rediculous stuff like 2+3?!

 

:confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Maybe it would be helpful to take advantage of his natural affinity to visualize. As an example, there's a good blogpost here explaining how kids who gesture are able to pick up on arithmetic better than their counterparts who don't: http://coolmathguy.com/gesturing-helps-grade-school-children-solve-math-problems

 

It may be time to recalibrate and actually TRY to find ways to teach math visually, instead of trying to find ways around it.

 

Maybe it's not as stressful as you think!

[Storm Bay]

One of my kids is driving me crazy. He's a visual learner. Very visual.

So why can he stilllllllllllllll not add and subtract?! I mean... rediculous stuff like 2+3?!

:confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Counting is fine. He can add and subtract when given something visual. (For example, he can picture a high rise building's stairwell, stand on one number, and count up or down to the number he needs... but that takes FOREVER.) I don't think counting is the issue. Oh, and he HATES number lines. Hates them!

 

 

His conceptual math level is WAY above his ability to do simple facts. Do I just need to do speed drills and pull teeth until he learns them?

 

 

How old is your ds? One thing I would check, even if he is a tremendously wonderful reader, is the possibility of a form of dyslexia. Dyslexia occurs at a greater rate in gifted dc than in dc in the average range of intelligence. (I got that from author Carla Hannaford Ph. D., in case anyone wonders.)

 

"People with dyslexia are often gifted in math. Their three-dimensional visualization skills help them "see" math concepts more quickly and clearly than non-dyslexic people. Unfortunately, difficulties in directionality, rote memorization, reading, and sequencing can make the following math tasks so difficult that their math gifts are never discovered."

 

http://www.dys-add.com/symptoms.html#dysgraphia

[2smartones]

Someone once suggested The Gift of Dyslexia to me, but I blew it off thinking... psssh! Not *my* kid. No way! He's been reading at an adult level since he was 4 years old. This book is for kids who can't read!

 

I think I'm going to revisit the possibility... and the book... again, though. :( Thank you for reminding me.

 

Does anyone have book suggestions for dyscalculia? I never really considered a LD because he's never had any trouble writing things like b and d backwards. He occasionally writes the number 9 backwards, and he sometimes (though definitely not all the time) writes things like 18 for 81. He NEVER does that for letters or words though. He's an excellent speller, too. Although, now that I think of it, I wonder if he never did that with letters because we started with cursive? Hmm...

[wapiti]

One random thought: when I visualize a number line in my head, I often see it vertically - ok occasionally it's on a 3-dimensional diagonal LOL - but I never, ever see it horizontally. (Same with the months of the year). Maybe try making a vertical one - have him help. Tape a strip of paper on the wall vertically and have him write in the numbers.

[2smartones]

I've actually tried that already. :confused: In my own mind, a calendar is a circle, and a number line looks like a roller coaster. It's not random, though. It's a specific roller coaster. I'll have to ask him what his number line looks like in his head. I wonder if that would help him see the numbers better? Thanks! :)

[Allearia]

You might look at the RightStart abacus. It has helped me visualize those addition/subtration facts in my head. Look at it online and see if you can come up with something like that, then it is easy to visualize numbers in groups of five.

[Storm Bay]

I've actually tried that already. :confused: In my own mind, a calendar is a circle, and a number line looks like a roller coaster. It's not random, though. It's a specific roller coaster. I'll have to ask him what his number line looks like in his head. I wonder if that would help him see the numbers better? Thanks! :)

Isn't it funny how that works? I think of a day in a vertical kind of circle, a week in a horizontal one, a month isn't in a circle, and a year is in a circle. but the circles aren't the way you'd draw them on paper.