Writing for my perfectionist dd6? (WWE or something else?)

[Tracy]

Dd6 is very bright and is accelerated in just about everything except for writing. The SWB philosophy of writing appeals to me a great deal. I have purposely waited until age 6yo to introduce a writing program, because I didn't think that a child that age ought to use one unless she wanted to, which was not the case with my dd6.

 

I have tried now and again to have dd do narrations for me. But she has a very good memory and tries to recite the story back to me verbatim. When she cannot, she gets frustrated. So then I start asking her specific questions about the book. She generally refuses to answer, I think because she is afraid of getting the question wrong. When I ask her to tell me what she remembers or what she likes about the book, she will not answer. I have tried having DH ask her when he gets home from work--very casually, as in, "Tell me about that book you read with mom today." And she won't answer that, either.

 

The only method that I have been able to use to get her to narrate a story is to dramatize it. But even then, she wants to have the book out to look at each page.

 

On one hand, I am looking at WWE, because the selections are designed just for this age--the right length and content. And if narration is a difficult skill for my dd to master, perhaps WWE is the way to help her with that. On the other hand, if the emphasis is on something that she just can't do, then maybe I am just inviting conflict.

 

Is it worth it to try WWE? Is there anything else I should be considering?

[boscopup]

Have you tried the sample first week yet? Explain to her beforehand what you're wanting from her. Help her with answers. She'll probably get better about it once she is regularly doing it.

 

My son is also a perfectionist, and we have our days with WWE (the Rumplestiltskin passages were hard for him), but his narration skills are getting better and better. He also knows now that if he doesn't know, I will read that part of the passage again, or sometimes I have to give him some leading words, but he is definitely improving.

[TKDmom]

I have similar problems with my 9yo dd. We started hs'ing when she was 7, and narration was like pulling teeth. It is better now, but she is still behind. We are going to buckle down and focus on getting her thoughts into coherent sentences this summer.

 

One thing that SWB suggests is to model what the child needs to be saying in the narration. When she tells you something in the exact words of the book, ask her to help you think of different words (one at time). You will likely be the one coming up with all the words, but over time, she will learn what you expect of her, and maybe messing up won't be so scary.

 

Have you listened to SWB's writing mp3s? If not go buy the one for elementary years. She explains it better than I can.

[Tracy]

Have you listened to SWB's writing mp3s? If not go buy the one for elementary years. She explains it better than I can.

 

Thanks, I might give that a try. Is it any different than what you find in TWTM. I ask because I hate audios. I am learning that I am not at all an auditory learner. I would rather read it.

[boscopup]

Tracy, I get more out of reading too, BUT... I guess SWB's lectures are so interesting that I learn from them anyway! I definitely got a lot out of that lecture that I hadn't picked up on when reading WTM. I listened to the lecture twice in a row to make sure I caught everything. It was that good. Highly recommend.

[Tracy]

Tracy, I get more out of reading too, BUT... I guess SWB's lectures are so interesting that I learn from them anyway! I definitely got a lot out of that lecture that I hadn't picked up on when reading WTM. I listened to the lecture twice in a row to make sure I caught everything. It was that good. Highly recommend.

 

Ok. :thumbup: I'll give it a try!

[Annabel Lee]

Yes, there's alot to those writing MP3 lectures that's not in the book. For ex., there is emphasis on getting the child to put the narration into his own words, to the point of going back over his words and asking "what's another word for ___?" or getting out the thesaurus to look up other options with the child. I think listening to it would help you sum up what you're looking for to your dd, and hopefully help her relax, knowing it's not a memory test.

[Critterfixer]

Narration sounds so simple, doesn't it? :glare: Tell me what you remember about what I just read. Yeah...

Breaking the narration into question segments is a good start, and showing her what you want done might help too, but it is difficult for a perfection oriented child to be very confident in trying something they can't be sure they will be perfect at.

I also think it would be natural for a child to repeat verbatim what you have just read. After all, isn't is called the poll-parrot stage? A child of six or seven doesn't have a huge vocabulary, so it seems logical to me that the child would try to use the words available instead of trying to approximate the meaning with their own words.

 

I think (and this is just my own stinkin' thinkin') that the goal of narration is not just to demonstrate that the child has "understood" the passage. I think it is to show them how to gather information. From anything, anywhere, anytime. So the leading questions should reflect that idea. Who is doing the action? What is the main action? Where is it happening? How is it happening? Why is it happening? The focus is going to change from one type of story to another. The focus questions from a science lesson or a history lesson would not be the same for a piece of literature.

 

I've had suggestions to start by using Aesop's Fables. That's a great idea, because the stories are short, and they are complete. The one issue I have with WWE is that I find it disjointed to have to summarize the setting and plot previous to the selection. That will likely be fine once the child is used to narration, but when they are just learning, asking them to accept that they have to narrate something that they have no background for is like asking a child to hop up on that bike with no one to hold him up!

[boscopup]

Critterfixer, I agree that short, complete stories like Aesop's fables are much easier. We just started FLL1, which uses those for story narrations. We've been doing WWE for 11 weeks. My perfectionist son definitely felt more comfortable with the complete story.

 

He's improving so much though. I can see how WWE is helping him. Also, part of my goal of homeschooling is to get him to push past his perfectionism and try more difficult things. In private school, everything was easy. Now he's working at his level and having to learn to deal with not knowing everything before it's taught. I'm very gentle with him when doing narrations, and he definitely prefers narration day to copywork day. :)

[Critterfixer]

 

Now he's working at his level and having to learn to deal with not knowing everything before it's taught. I'm very gentle with him when doing narrations, and he definitely prefers narration day to copywork day. :)

We're not there yet. But we are working toward that day. I do agree that it is best for a child to learn how to deal with the perfection tendency, but I also think there is something to be said for CM's idea of making sure that the child has a better than average chance of succeeding perfectly when they make their first attempts. After they are comfortable without Mom holding on to the bike, and Dad raising up the training wheels, and they have gotten a few tips from their siblings and friends about heading for the grass; THEN it's time to mess up a few times! :001_smile:

[nansk]

...I agree that short, complete stories like Aesop's fables are much easier

 

Tracy,

 

If it helps, the narration stories in Language Lessons by Gordy & Mead are even shorter than the ones in Milo Winter's Aesop Fables. They are complete stories all the same.

 

Here is an excerpt:

 

LESSON IX

FOR CONVERSATION AND REPRODUCTION

 

 

How Daniel Boone Outwitted the Indians

Daniel Boone was a fearless hunter. He liked to live in the depths of the forests, where he was often in danger from unfriendly Indians. Once while in a shed looking after some tobacco, four of these dusky warriors with loaded guns came suddenly to the door. They told him that this time he could not get away from them as he had done once before. But Boone slyly took a dry tobacco leaf, rubbed it to dust, and threw it into the faces of the Indians. Then while they were coughing, sneezing, and wiping their eyes, he slipped by them out of the door and made good his escape.

 

--------

 

Read this incident first aloud to your teacher, then silently, and lastly aloud once more. Now tell in complete sentences who

Daniel Boone was ; where he liked to live ; how four Indians came upon him suddenly one day ; what they told him ; what he did then ; and how he made his escape.

 

Next tell the whole story without being questioned.

Edited March 22, 2011 by nansk

[Tracy]

Using very short stories seems like a good idea, but I am concerned that doing so will encourage the dd's idea that she should say them back to me verbatim.

[Critterfixer]

Using very short stories seems like a good idea, but I am concerned that doing so will encourage the dd's idea that she should say them back to me verbatim.

 

How's this? Instead of asking a broad question such as "Tell me what you remember about the passage?" you were to break it down for her. Start by asking her very specific questions. Write down the answers to the directed questions on her paper, or on your main chalk or whiteboard. Specifically try to make the questions direct and with very short answers. These short answers could even be fragments and you can show her how to compose them into short sentences. When you have had her answer the questions needed to summarize the passage, show her how you compose it.

 

As an example:

How Daniel Boone Outwitted the Indians

Daniel Boone was a fearless hunter. He liked to live in the depths of the forests, where he was often in danger from unfriendly Indians. Once while in a shed looking after some tobacco, four of these dusky warriors with loaded guns came suddenly to the door. They told him that this time he could not get away from them as he had done once before. But Boone slyly took a dry tobacco leaf, rubbed it to dust, and threw it into the faces of the Indians. Then while they were coughing, sneezing, and wiping their eyes, he slipped by them out of the door and made good his escape.

 

 

Who is the story about? Daniel Boone

Who tried to capture him? The Indians

Where was he when they tried to get him? In his tobacco barn.

What did he do when the tried to get him? Blew dust in their faces.

What did the dust make the Indians do? They couldn't see.

While the Indians were coughing, sneezing and wiping their faces what did Daniel Boone do? He sneaked out the door.

 

As she told you the answers you would write them down into a summary.

(This story is about Daniel Boone. Some Indians tried to get him while he was out in his tobacco barn. Daniel Boone blew dust in their faces. The Indians couldn't see. Daniel Boone sneaked out the door.)

[TKDmom]

Using very short stories seems like a good idea, but I am concerned that doing so will encourage the dd's idea that she should say them back to me verbatim.

 

You know another thing I just thought of is key word outlines. It's not exactly the same skill, but it might help. I went to a seminar by Andrew Pudewa this weekend, where he had the audience read one of Aesop's fables, then list the three most important words from each sentence. Then, we had to reconstruct the fable, in our own words, using the key words.

 

With a child who tends to repeat verbatim, you might want to write the keywords one day, then wait a day or two for her memory to fade, so that she can reconstruct the fable using her own words. Here is the mp3 of the talk I went to.

 

ETA: (I'm not an auditory learner, either. Sorry I keep recommending these audio files.)

Edited March 22, 2011 by bonniebeth4

[Tracy]

How's this? Instead of asking a broad question such as "Tell me what you remember about the passage?" you were to break it down for her. Start by asking her very specific questions. Write down the answers to the directed questions on her paper, or on your main chalk or whiteboard. Specifically try to make the questions direct and with very short answers. These short answers could even be fragments and you can show her how to compose them into short sentences. When you have had her answer the questions needed to summarize the passage, show her how you compose it.

 

As an example:

 

Who is the story about? Daniel Boone

Who tried to capture him? The Indians

Where was he when they tried to get him? In his tobacco barn.

What did he do when the tried to get him? Blew dust in their faces.

What did the dust make the Indians do? They couldn't see.

While the Indians were coughing, sneezing and wiping their faces what did Daniel Boone do? He sneaked out the door.

 

As she told you the answers you would write them down into a summary.

(This story is about Daniel Boone. Some Indians tried to get him while he was out in his tobacco barn. Daniel Boone blew dust in their faces. The Indians couldn't see. Daniel Boone sneaked out the door.)

 

I guess I thought that having a very short story would make it easy for her to remember it verbatim and thus try to just repeat the same words. Thanks for the example. I think WWE may help me to streamline my approach.

 

You know another thing I just thought of is key word outlines. It's not exactly the same skill, but it might help. I went to a seminar by Andrew Pudewa this weekend, where he had the audience read one of Aesop's fables, then list the three most important words from each sentence. Then, we had to reconstruct the fable, in our own words, using the key words.

 

With a child who tends to repeat verbatim, you might want to write the keywords one day, then wait a day or two for her memory to fade, so that she can reconstruct the fable using her own words. Here is the mp3 of the talk I went to.

 

ETA: (I'm not an auditory learner, either. Sorry I keep recommending these audio files.)

 

Thanks for this. It sounds like another option should I continue to have trouble with narration. At this point, I am hoping that it is just a developmental issue that will resolve itself by the time we start in the fall.