Ideas for disrespectful little boy?

[amo_mea_filiis.]

My son is 6, and has never been very respectful to begin with, but with some recent drama he has become breast obsessed. If it were just me, I'd continue to not react so much, but he started making comments to the woman who works with him at home.

 

They were talking about personal space, so she went right up to him and asked if she was invading his space. All he said was "your boobs are big." He refused to talk about space, and kept making boob comments (her chest is at his eye level).

 

This is NOT his biggest problem. However, the topic of breasts and nudity has unfortunately been spoken of a lot lately. I'm 90% sure that if his behavior of pinching my breast for attention wasn't made that big of a deal, he wouldn't be doing this.

 

He's not a typical kid. He's mildly autistic and severly ADHD. Most of his comments and behaviors happen when he's tired and overly impulsive. Time out is a joke with him.

 

Until his pinching behavior gained "publicity," he KNEW never, ever, ever touch or attempt to touch a woman's breasts (mom's different, and it was attention seeking). But now he has 2 more females in the house working with him, and this is becomming an issue.

 

We need to go back to working on verbal expression, feelings and emotions ... HELP PLEASE!!! :confused:

[Haiku]

I don't know your son, but if he's autistic, I don't think that he's being disrespectful in the traditional sense. I think this is a behavior modification issue, and I would ask the women who work with him for some ideas. Years ago I was an in-home aide for a little boy wit PDD, and we had plenty of issues we managed with behavior mod.

 

Tara

[AK_Mom4]

:grouphug:

 

Don't you hate it when these little guys find a button to push? Sounds like he has 3 of you hopping when he gets on this one topic.

 

And it sounds like you already know what's going to work....you will probably have to ignore the behavior (unless it gets harmful - pinching, hitting, etc, then you intercept and redirect). As long as he keeps getting a reaction (especially a negative one), then he will keep doing it. It's not so much being disrespectful as getting hooked on the reaction he is getting.....

 

And, you're right - the normal kid things like time-outs and discipline stuff just doesn't work. Praise the positive, ignore the negative when you can, intercept and redirect when you can't ignore it.....that's been my mantra with my special kid for years. It takes the patience of a saint....which I definitely don't have!

 

Hang in there! It does get better! :grouphug:

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I think you are probably right that the less attention he gets for those comments and actions, the better. If you could just have everyone involved calmly brush aside his comments, such as "We are not talking about that now, we are talking about personal space. Am I invading your personal space?" If he doesn't get a reaction after repeated attempts, maybe he'll stop trying. If he touches someone, take his hand away and say in a calm voice, "We don't touch people there.", then move on to whatever he is supposed to be doing. I find with my severely ADHD nephew, that if you don't react to whatever behavior you don't want to emphasize, he will try to repeat it several times. If you keep redirecting him, without giving in to what he wants, he eventually gets over it. It is exhausting, but about the only way to do it without losing your cool.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I'm getting soooooo close to pulling him from school NOW! He has an IEP, and is classified autistic, but no one "sees" it. So basically he's treated as a typical kid. In a typical class with other typical kids. He just told me that him and another boy in his class think that a girl in their school is "hot!" These are 1st grade boys!!!

 

I've never felt it was a huge deal that he used my chest for attention. I would simply move his hands and put them around my waist. As soon as the behavior therapist made it a big deal, he did it more, and now to other people. I think he needs someone trained in ABA, or no therapy at all!

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Thank you for the advice!

[MamaSheep]

Idea #1

 

I agree that it's probably not really a matter of "disrespect" with this child. Certainly it's an inappropriate behavior, but that's not always the same thing as disrespect. It sounds to me like an impulse control issue--impulse control is a problem for both my autistic son and my ADHD daughter, so I can only imagine how overwhelming impulses can be if your son is trying to cope with both.

 

I don't know your son or whether he has issues with communication, but if his autism is mild enough for him to understand, you could try finding an alternate appropriate behavior he can do when he feels the "urge". Sit with him and explain that yes, breasts are very, very amazing things--they feel good, and they help feed babies. In fact they are so special and personal that it is extremely rude to go around touching them unless the woman is your mother or your wife, and even then you should ask permission first. You wouldn't want some kid you don't even know coming in and grabbing your favorite, special toys, right? And breasts are even more special than your favorite special toys. They're just that cool. Also, most ladies don't like to discuss their breasts with anyone who is not related to them, so it's inappropriate to comment on women's breasts unless it's your mom or your wife. They are really nice, so I can understand why it might be hard not to touch or talk about them, but since that makes women very uncomfortable, or even angry, we need to find something else to do instead when we feel like touching or talking about breasts. Maybe when you feel like touching breasts you could put your hands on your shoulders, or on your elbows and keep them there until the feeling passes so they don't go places they shouldn't. Maybe if you want to talk about a woman's breasts you could say something friendly instead, like "You have beautiful eyes," or "I like your dress." Then she will not be angry or embarrased. Dear son of mine, let's choose one thing to do with your hands, and one thing to say with your mouth, instead of touching or talking of breasts, ok? Which would you like?

 

Once he chooses, you may also want to come up with a signal you can give him as a subtle reminder. "When I tug my ear like this you quick put both hands on the opposite elbows and count to ten in your head with your lips tight together." Or whatever works for you. Then practice it a few times when nobody else is around so you both get the hang of it.

 

A word of warning, though. I would advise against having him put his hands in his pockets. I have heard from several moms and teachers of autistic boys that having the hands that near the groin area when a boy is trying to control a sensory impulse can lead to a whole other kind of inappropriate behavior. So elbows and shoulders are safer.

 

That's if it's an impulse control thing, though.

 

ETA: Oh now I see your new post that wasn't there when I started typing. It sounds like he's pretty high functioning and would be able to understand this kind of discussion (whether he'd cooperate might be another story if he's anything like my ds, but it has worked sometimes--when it's an impulse issue--and might be worth a try). I have a couple more thoughts I'll type up too.

Edited March 16, 2011 by MamaSheep

[Joanne]

Is it possible he's been exposed to inappropriate, accelerated or edgy images?

[MamaSheep]

Idea #2

 

If you're looking at an attention-seeking behavior then the best thing to do is not to feed it by giving it ANY attention, including negative attention. I know that's hard because it is such an intrusive thing, but if it is about attention, then that's the fastest way to snuff it out. You have to completely and studiously ignore the behavior. You can walk off to do something else, but do it calmly, as if you were about to do that anyway, and do NOT comment on the behavior or make it seem as if moving away is in any way connected to his behavior. "You know, all this playing (or reading or watching tv or talking on the phone, or whatever you've been doing) is making me thirsty. I think I'll go get a glass of water." And then do. Or else just sit there, minding your own business and pretending he doesn't even exist to you right then. Even if he's jumping up and down on your foot, screaming in your face, you can't see him or feel him or hear him. He might as well be in the other room for all you notice him.

 

Then, and this is IMPORTANT, the MOMENT he starts behaving appropriately in ANY degree, you make a big fuss about it. Give him an overload of positive attention. "I LOVE how you are keeping your hands to yourself. That is SO responsible! Give me five, you awesome kid!" Don't wait until his behavior is perfect either. Anything that is a move in the right direction should be rewarded with positive attention. If I remember correctly behavior modification pros call this "approximation". Behavior that is even "approximately" right is a big happy deal, especially in the beginning, and then you can work on improvement once you've got some momentum going. You want to "feed" the desired behavior so it gets "bigger" and crowds out the undesireable behavior.

 

The warning that goes with this approach is that it will very likely get worse in the beginning, not better. Possibly a lot worse. This is called an "extinction burst" and is normal and to be expected. It does not mean that ignoring the attention-seeking behavior is not working; in fact, the opposite is true; it means it IS working, even though it might not seem that way at first. That doesn't make it any less aggravating, but I have found that knowing it's coming helps me brace for it and stick to my guns until it passes. Because it does pass, as long as you continue consistently ignoring the undesired behavior. The worst thing you can do if you're using this behavior management technique is to be inconsistent. If he gets a rise out of you sometimes, and other times you ignore him, that's like a slot machine and he will compulsively pull the handle to see if anything comes out, if you see what I mean. And it will go on, and on, and on. So be super consistent with the cold fish Mom thing EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. It will get worse before it gets better, but it will get better.

 

IF it's about attention. If it's about something else, like impulse control, this technique might be less effective. It might still work, but I've found this to be most effective on attention-seeking behaviors.

 

Also, it helps if you use a little "preventive medicine" when it comes to attention. Some of the best behavior management advice I've been given is to pay attention to the ratio of positive interactions to negative interactions that you're having with your child. Studies have found that when the ratio is AT LEAST five positive interactions for every negative interaction, child behavior improves DRAMATICALLY and the whole family is happier. This has been true at my house too.

 

Find a way to actually keep score for a while. One person recommended putting a line down the middle of a 3x5 card and keeping it in your pocket with a pencil stub so you can put tally marks on either side for each positive or negative interaction. One of the moms in our autism group said she keeps 5 pennies in one pocket, and when she has a positive interaction with her son she moves one penny to the pocket on the other side. When they have a negative interaction she moves them all back to the starting pocket.

 

It doesn't matter who initiates the interaction, it only matters whether it was positive or negative. If he smiles at you, that counts as a positive interaction. If you give him a compliment, that counts. If he yells at you, that's a negative. If you scold him for leaving his socks on the floor, that's negative. Small things count as much as big things. Just track the number of interactions, and whether they were positive or negative.

 

If you do this for a day or two you'll get a feel for how you're doing. And I promise, the 5 to 1 ratio really does make a BIG difference. When I started doing this it was a HARD ratio to reach. Ds was not only cranky and inappropriate, he was also regularly violent and out of control. It was HARD to be fast enough with the positives to keep up with his almost constant flow of negativity. But the harder I tried, the better he got. It took some time, but it was like magic. A LOT of those negative attention-seeking behaviors went away because he was getting a steady diet of positives, and I discovered his "attention tank" really did have a limited size, and if I filled it up with good things, he couldn't fit the bad ones in there nearly as well. These days he's a fairly pleasant, respectful young man (usually--he does still have his moments, and now puberty is hitting, heaven help us, but that too will pass), and I really think keeping an eye on this positive/negative ratio has been one of the keys to getting there. It can feel kind of awkward and artificial at first, but so does playing the piano or learning to cook, or any other new "skill". And with some kids (like mine) it can be tricky to come up with positives some days. Especially if they don't tend to notice facial expressions like smiles and winks, and they don't like being touched. I was occasionally reduced to things like, "I love how that shirt brings out the color of your eyes." Or, "Your hair looks so cute when it's touseled that way." Or, "Yay! You only argued with me twelve times this morning. Last night you argued twenty six times before you went and brushed your teeth. That's an improvement of FOURTEEN TIMES! You are AMAZING! Next thing I know you will be down to only five or six. You are just that good." It's a stretch, I know, but it worked.

[MamaSheep]

Idea #3 (And then I have to go make supper).

 

It is possible that it's a disciplinary issue. I generally find that with my autistic son's inappropriate behaviors it's more likely to be a sensory issue, or an attention issue, or an impulse control issue, or a social ignorance issue (nobody ever bothered explaining that the behavior is inappropriate because it's just so OBVIOUSLY inappropriate, but he doesn't always pick up on that, and so sometimes it's enough to just take him aside and quietly explain the obvious). But every now and then it's just a matter of (not so) good old-fashioned defiance of the ol' parental unit.

 

And like you described with your son, the old stand-bys of discipline, like time-outs, or grounding, or extra chores, or a tongue lashing, or a spanking have almost NEVER worked with that child. You could do those things until you were blue in the face and he was a bloody pulp duct taped to a chair in the time-out corner (no, of course we never actually got to that extreme, but it was clear we could have) and it would make no difference whatsoever in his behavior. He has even been known to consider the "punishment" as a viable option and just opt for that instead of doing whatever it was we wanted him to do. He does sometimes need some quiet time alone to calm down, but that's a different animal from a "time out".

 

The trick with him was to find his own, personal, "currency" and work with that. And like I've heard other Aspie moms say, these kids have a very limited currency. With my ds the ONLY things that really make any disciplinary dent in his armor at all are bedtime and computer time. If I need a disciplinary tool, the only ones that consistently work are to move his bedtime earlier, and to ban him from the computer. And I have found that the key with both of these is to use small increments. If I ground him from the computer for a week, then I have given up all my leverage for a whole week. He can misbehave in all kinds of dreadful ways during that week, and no matter what other punishment I dish out, it barely even registers--to the point where he pretty much feels free to wreak his revenge on me unchecked. It is not pleasant. I've found, though, that losing 5-15 minutes of either bedtime or computer time (depending on teh seriousness of the infraction) is as distressing to him as losing computers (or going to bed early) for a whole week is to most other kids. And then I haven't shot the whole arsenal at once. I have also found that sometimes it works to allow him to "earn" back lost time by doing extra chores. Just assigning the extra chores as a "punishment" barely even registers on his radar except as something else that he's ignoring and Mom is trying ineffectively to force him to do. But if I take away 15 minutes of bedtime and then tell him he can earn that time back at a rate of 5 minutes per extra chore, and hand him a list, I can get all kinds of work out of him, and I don't have to push. And then, instead of handing him another way to defy me (by refusing to cooperate with my punishment), I've given him a way to prove to me that he is responsible--and that's where I prefer to have his attention focused. I've also found that EXTRA computer time, or letting him stay up a little later when he's extra good is highly motivating to him. Almost nothing else in the world is. But for discipline issues with these highly functioning autistic kiddos I think the key is to find the right "currency" for THAT child, and learn how to use it effectively with THAT child. I've heard this from other moms too, so I know it's not just me.

 

Ok, I really do need to go cook. One last thought, though. Whether you choose to keep him at school or to bring him home, it's not a good idea to let inappropriate behaviors slide. Often these kids have a hard time differentiating between how they can get away with behaving at home, and how they should behave in other settings. If it's ok at home, it's likely he will do it other places and that could get him in trouble, especially as he gets older. It's one thing to have a six year-old grabbing at women's breasts, but it's something else when it's a sixteen year-old. And it's best to establish good habits early.

 

Also...take some deep breaths and hang in there. This autism mom thing is a journey, not an event. But you're going to be ok. :grouphug:

[Tap]

I haven't read all the replies (so it may have already been touched on) but thought I would throw this out there. I have a child with pdd so I get do understand a bit of what it is like to have an aspie. I need to head out the door so I can't type much but I will just throw an idea out there too you.

 

Have you considered that this isn't necessarily a behavior issue...but instead a "it is literally in front of my face" issue, every where he goes? If he is the right height, some kids really can't escape breasts in his face.

 

In the circumstance where you were talking about personal space, maybe his response was due the fact, that breasts, where the part of the body that is invading his space.

[Shannon in TN]

@MamaSheep - I don't have the same issue as amo_mea_filiis but I have struggles with my ds that has me wondering what to do and how to encourage changing his behaviors (a lot of it is attention-seeking) both at home and out-and-about and your thoughts and ideas were like lightbulbs! I know I wasn't the one you were aiming your ideas at, but I sure do appreciate what you've said.

 

Thank you!

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Thank you again! Yes he is fairly high functioning. He is very verbal, and can have conversations, but his communication is very poor. I have to hit the right topic for him to start talking. At thye same time, I don't want to put ideas in his head. He's much better at matter-of-fact and routine conversations, like telling me what he did in OT vs what he did at recess.

 

Anytime I've applied behavior strategies geared towards autistic kids, he responds better than things geared towards ADHD, ODD, typical, etc.

 

I think I need to try a mix of your ideas. He needs to understand that he can't grab or try to grab impulsively, but ignore it when he does it to me.

 

His TV watching is also now restricted to Signing time only. He never had a problem understanding that something on TV was inappropriate and was not to be repeated, but once he saw real kids in school doing/saying things he knew from TV it went downhill.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

How I didn't know this is beyond me ... but PA compulsory attendance is age 8?!?!?! Does that mean I can just pull him from school? I would love to homeschool him, and being able to do so freely for a couple years would be great!

 

If I do this, we'd have to start behavioral boot camp at home! LOL.

[snipsnsnailsx5]

*hugs* I can understand where you are coming from.

 

Last year in 2nd grade my son had many issues. We're just now getting an ADHD diagnosis and started him on medication. I don't know how severe his ADHD is, but I do know that he has had constant impulse control issues since he was able to be mobile. *sigh*

 

He's always been my child to try to push the line as far as he could. At some point he saw reactions of other kids to inappropriate words and globbed on to that. We went through a swearing phase with him (thankfully he never got into trouble at school for swearing! Phew!) and a potty-talk stage (that he did into trouble with, like when he wrote the word p3ni$ on school property, I think it was a desk or book).

 

Its literally caused me stress and heartache beyond imagine. WHAT had I done wrong with this child? (this was before I knew of his ADHD diagnosis). The teachers and other parents probably thought I had a very disturbed child and I didn't parent him at all. :(

 

Around the middle of 2nd grade I had my fifth son. I breastfed him, and tried to cover up but I wasn't perfect at it all the time.

I taught my sons that breasts are for breastfeeding. That's why women have them. Its not appropriate to gawk at them, or say rude things because they are just for feeding babies. We don't let him watch TV where girls are wearing skimpy bikinis, etc. I wanted him to understand the natural purpose for breasts.

 

Then he goes back to school and its ALLL about the boobies. He kept getting into trouble for talking about "boobies" with other students. Parents were getting upset, the teacher told me he was bordering on "sexual harassment" the way he kept talking about "boobies".

The straw that broke the camel's back is when he was playing with a little girl at recess, not alone but with a group, and they were all playing make-believe. He told her that he wanted to marry her and sleep with her. I know he doesn't know the adult meaning of "sleeping with someone". Its not something I ever use in my vocab or that he'd see on TV. He was a 2nd grader who sees that mommy and daddy are married and go to sleep together in the same bed. I got a note home that the little girl's mom was VERY upset, and the little girl told my son that her mom said she was "DONE" with all of this and she was going to go to the principal to do something about it.

 

Well I was DONE too. So I pulled him out of school right then and he never went back. It made me SICK to know that teachers I put my trust in were thinking of my son as a sexual harasser, and now other parents were too.

 

A year made all the difference. He's in the middle of 3rd grade year and no where near where he was last year. Maybe partly it had to do with the friends he had there, the other little boys were getting into trouble too. Or maybe he just needed to mature more. But he has a little friend who's a girl that goes to his co-op and they play together great. No talk of boobies at all anymore. lol

 

So *big hugs* to you. I know how you feel. I would hope that the adults dealing with your son would understand the autism spectrum and ADHD enough to know that he's not be disrespectful, but its part of that impulse control.

 

I hope this made sense or helped at all. I am typing quickly to get back to dinner clean-up! Lol but I just had to post.

:grouphug:

[6packofun]

Take him to the bathroom--no matter where you are--whenever he does this sort of stuff. He's talking about and doing stuff that, for us at least, belongs in private and/or in the bathroom. I'd put him in there and say, "You can talk about private parts all you want in here and when you're done, you can come out and be with everyone else. It makes people feel yucky (whatever word you want) when you talk about their private parts." It won't be fun in there for long! We've done something similar when one of our kids picked up a swear word and used it ALL the time. We let him wear it out, all alone, in the bathroom. Boring! LOL

 

Now, because you've talked so much about breasts already, you need to walk the fine line between appropriateness--which is hard for a little guy--and not villifying boobs! LOL I'm not sure how that will work for your child; wish I had advice for that.