resources to develop logic/reasoning skills?

[razorbackmama]

I think this is one of the root problems with my ds's language issues. He has trouble with the way words relate to one another because he's lacking the logical thinking necessary to realize how they relate to one another. I think it's why he struggles with inferential thinking, drawing conclusions, etc. as well. Does that make sense?:confused:

 

When he went through the Building Thinking Skills series, it almost killed us both.:glare:

 

So I'd like to train his brain some in this area, but I am totally clueless and lost when it comes to stuff like this. I'm VERY tempted to just take him to LearningRx, but my pocketbook says I most definitely need to try to figure out a way to help him on my own.:tongue_smilie:

 

Suggestions?

[lionfamily1999]

Mind Benders

 

That's what we're using for starting the Logic Stage and introduce ds to logical thinking.

[razorbackmama]

Mind Benders

 

That's what we're using for starting the Logic Stage and introduce ds to logical thinking.

That's what he is doing now. It's not QUITE as painful as BTS because we don't do it everyday (simply because there aren't enough of them...otherwise we would), but it's still pretty ugly.:glare:

[lionfamily1999]

There was a web site with free logic puzzles. Let me see if I can hunt it down.

 

Starting out, it's going to be very hard. I think logic, like so much else, needs some time to "click."

[lionfamily1999]

http://www.logic-puzzles.org/

 

http://www.puzzles.com/projects/logicproblems.html'>http://www.puzzles.com/projects/logicproblems.html'>http://www.puzzles.com/projects/logicproblems.html'>http://www.puzzles.com/projects/logicproblems.html

 

http://www.puzzlersparadise.com/page1034.html

 

http://www.puzzlemonster.com/

 

http://www.brain-fun.com/

 

http://www.puzzles.com/

 

Hopefully, you'll find some easier puzzles in here somewhere. At least you'll have lots of options.

 

I hope this helps some. I wish I had better advice, rather than trudge trudge trudge and wait for the 'click.' :grouphug:

[razorbackmama]

Thanks, I'll check those out!

 

I've definitely been waiting for the "click," but ei yi yi. There are times when my almost 4yo has more logic than he does.:001_huh:

[lionfamily1999]

I swear, trying to teach a child in puberty (logic of all things :lol:!!!) is :banghead:

 

My older ds (almost 10) is going to start logic in June (we school year round, so it'll be 5th grade for him). I'm hoping that if we start before puberty raises its ugly head, we'll get some thinking skills in before the hormones make it impossible.

 

FYI, dd is in formal logic at this point and understanding it better than I am. She's 14. There is a light at the end of the tunnel ;)

[merry gardens]

I think this is one of the root problems with my ds's language issues. He has trouble with the way words relate to one another because he's lacking the logical thinking necessary to realize how they relate to one another. I think it's why he struggles with inferential thinking, drawing conclusions, etc. as well. Does that make sense?:confused:

 

When he went through the Building Thinking Skills series, it almost killed us both.:glare:

 

So I'd like to train his brain some in this area, but I am totally clueless and lost when it comes to stuff like this. I'm VERY tempted to just take him to LearningRx, but my pocketbook says I most definitely need to try to figure out a way to help him on my own.:tongue_smilie:

 

Suggestions?

:grouphug:

 

Yes, it makes sense. It might help, but I the ability to think logically in one area (like math and algebra) doesn't always translates into thinking logically about language. My children do very well in math, but some still have language problems. I've recently tried the approach of discussing grammar with math analogies, since my children "get" math logic. (It's too early to tell if that approach is helping them.)

 

I plan to focus more on the spoken language and the logical flow of thoughts next year through grammar and writing. I just ordered a number of books and teacher materials that address some of the language issues related to dyslexia that are beyond reading and spelling. I'll most likely share about them with you in some future thread this forum if I find any of those resources particularly helpful or insightful.

[razorbackmama]

I swear, trying to teach a child in puberty (logic of all things :lol:!!!) is :banghead:

 

My older ds (almost 10) is going to start logic in June (we school year round, so it'll be 5th grade for him). I'm hoping that if we start before puberty raises its ugly head, we'll get some thinking skills in before the hormones make it impossible.

 

FYI, dd is in formal logic at this point and understanding it better than I am. She's 14. There is a light at the end of the tunnel ;)

You know, honestly, the lack of logic goes all the way back. Like I said, he doesn't even understand the logic between words. He'll say things like, "He talks my ears out" (rather than OFF). So we're talking the very BASICS of logical thinking.

[razorbackmama]

 

I plan to focus more on the spoken language and the logical flow of thoughts next year through grammar and writing. I just ordered a number of books and teacher materials that address some of the language issues related to dyslexia that are beyond reading and spelling. I'll most likely share about them with you in some future thread this forum if I find any of those resources particularly helpful or insightful.

Can't wait to hear about them!

[lionfamily1999]

You know, honestly, the lack of logic goes all the way back. Like I said, he doesn't even understand the logic between words. He'll say things like, "He talks my ears out" (rather than OFF). So we're talking the very BASICS of logical thinking.

How much does he read by choice? IOW, does he read for fun? That can have an impact. Some things, especially those sorts of phrases, can be hard to understand until you've had a wide array of language before you. IOW, I'm still to this day learning what some oft used phrases mean. Not really understanding their meanings leaves the speaker without the information they need to use the word correctly. For instance, you read the word meloncholy once and think you understand it, you use it again only to find out what you thought it meant isn't so.

 

That sort of thing, I think, takes some time. It's sort of like getting song lyrics wrong. They make sense to the person that is misinterpreting them, but a person that really knows the song doesn't understand how they got to their conclusion.

 

And really, at his age, I wouldn't worry. My son used to think that "fathering" was synonymous with "bothering." Not that dh bugs everyone, but because they sounded similar to him and he made the leap that fathering is bothersome :lol: It made sense to him.

[razorbackmama]

How much does he read by choice? IOW, does he read for fun? That can have an impact. Some things, especially those sorts of phrases, can be hard to understand until you've had a wide array of language before you. IOW, I'm still to this day learning what some oft used phrases mean. Not really understanding their meanings leaves the speaker without the information they need to use the word correctly. For instance, you read the word meloncholy once and think you understand it, you use it again only to find out what you thought it meant isn't so.

 

He doesn't often read for fun because stuff doesn't make sense to him. That's part of his language trouble - he doesn't intuit the meaning of things. But this is caused by his logic troubles...at least I think so. It would make sense anyway LOL.

[lionfamily1999]

So, he has problems with reading comprehension then? How does he do with word problems for math?

[razorbackmama]

So, he has problems with reading comprehension then? How does he do with word problems for math?

Yes. Horrible.

 

He has Mixed Receptive-Expressive Language Disorder, which is caused in part by CAPD. His particular CAPD has to do with the associations involved with language. IOW, he may hear a word perfectly fine, but there is a glitch in his brain where what he hears meets meaning. Also, one thing I've found (and this may be more of the logic/reasoning breakdown) is that he may know what a word means, but he doesn't quite get what it means when it's used in different contexts, and he may not know exactly how to USE that word properly.

 

So that's one reason why I'm wanting to work on basic logic in general, to train that part of the brain.

[lionfamily1999]

Ah! Gosh, I'm sorry I've been so slow on the uptake. Do narrations help him? I'm just wondering if doing logic isn't putting the cart before the horse. If he has problems understanding what he reads then the logic puzzles have to be super frustrating. Now, he may have no difficulty with the idea of logical procession (first this, then this, next this) so the symbol problems, or even sudokus may be doable. How is he with those? Mixing them in, especially if it's something he can do with out frustration, could help keep him going.

 

Formal logic is so wordy, that had to be :banghead:

 

ETA, I realize I just went in a big old circle.

 

Does he do narrations?

[razorbackmama]

Ah! Gosh, I'm sorry I've been so slow on the uptake. Do narrations help him? I'm just wondering if doing logic isn't putting the cart before the horse. If he has problems understanding what he reads then the logic puzzles have to be super frustrating. Now, he may have no difficulty with the idea of logical procession (first this, then this, next this) so the symbol problems, or even sudokus may be doable. How is he with those? Mixing them in, especially if it's something he can do with out frustration, could help keep him going.

 

Formal logic is so wordy, that had to be :banghead:

 

ETA, I realize I just went in a big old circle.

 

Does he do narrations?

 

He can do narrations, provided he has understood what he reads.

 

I'm not talking about formal logic as in the subject you study on its own in the logic stage. I'm talking about extremely basic logical/reasoning skills - stuff that most people don't even really consider "true logic." (And yes, it was u-g-l-y when we tried to do logic as a subject.:tongue_smilie:) I honestly don't know what that would even consist of (otherwise I'd come up with something myself), but I know that there is a generic sense of logic as it relates to language, reasoning skills, etc.

 

That's why I asked here, hoping that someone else has a kid who struggles with this sort of thing.:D

[peacefully]

.

[wapiti]

:lurk5: Right there with you ladies.

 

So far, the type of reasoning exercises that she does with him involve categorization. Sometimes she gives a category, and he is asked to name three (or whatever) things that fit that category. Other times, she names three things, and ds is supposed to define the category for those things. He has a harder time with the first exercise than the second (word-finding is one of his issues, despite having a really great vocabulary). Every time he does the second type of exercise, he gets better and better. I've noticed that he is doing better and better on reading comprehension questions that involve inferences.

 

There may be workbooks available for these types of exercises - see, e.g., the "rocket" series http://www.amazon.com/Logic-Liftoff-Bonnie-Risby/dp/1593630883/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300161806&sr=1-1; also consider outlining http://www.amazon.com/REMEDIA-PUBLICATIONS-OUTLINING-GR-5-8/dp/B000QCBC2M/ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300161882&sr=1-1-catcorr, which seems, coincidentally, to involve similar skills re: categorization. Hmmm, thinking out loud, those skills would also be involved in paragraph construction/organization, particularly regarding coming up with the paragraph topic idea, or conversely finding x number of ideas to include as details supporting the topic. (make any sense? ok it's never good to think out loud this late... :tongue_smilie:) Any other sources?

[HeidiD]

:lurk5: Right there with you ladies.

 

 

 

There may be workbooks available for these types of exercises - see, e.g., the "rocket" series http://www.amazon.com/Logic-Liftoff-Bonnie-Risby/dp/1593630883/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1300161806&sr=1-1; also consider outlining http://www.amazon.com/REMEDIA-PUBLICATIONS-OUTLINING-GR-5-8/dp/B000QCBC2M/ref=sr_1_cc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300161882&sr=1-1-catcorr, which seems, coincidentally, to involve similar skills re: categorization. Hmmm, thinking out loud, those skills would also be involved in paragraph construction/organization, particularly regarding coming up with the paragraph topic idea, or conversely finding x number of ideas to include as details supporting the topic. (make any sense? ok it's never good to think out loud this late... :tongue_smilie:) Any other sources?

 

 

Here's a method (VERY time-consuming, might take a while to get used to, but can be extremely helpful for strengthening these skills):

 

Pick a document, or a particular page from a book, or even just a paragraph to analyze - eg, the Declaration of Independence, or something else from your curriculum (I use those Teacher Created non-fiction workbooks) or a page or paragraph from any book you like.

 

Read it, discuss it together until it becomes very familiar, and then start analyzing it in multiple ways over a number of days. For instance, write a "reaction" paragraph, also a "summary" paragraph, and then an "opinion" paragraph. Working on the same source material from different angles is a helpful approach to developing thinking skills, because familiarity with the material gained from considering the same piece of writing over and over makes it easier to focus on the analysis/logic aspect. And writing about it helps to reinforce those skills. It might be necessary to work together for a period of time (weeks or months, even) and repeatedly model the approach and the steps to follow (gradually fading out the help as the student's proficiency increases). And start with material that is either at or slightly below the student's present ability level/comfort zone, gradually increasing the complexity of the readings over time.

 

Also work on vocab development (workbooks for vocab, along with as much daily reading as possible).

 

Wapiti, I think your suggestions fit well with this approach. Does Remedia publish a summarizing workbook also? I think we may have used it aound here at some point. :001_unsure:

 

Also, "HELP For Language" is something we've used:

 

http://www.linguisystems.com/itemdetail.php?itemid=10272

 

With time and practice, language and thinking skills will improve. :)

[razorbackmama]

Thanks for all these resources.

[butterfly113]

These have been a big help in our house. DS has trouble with pragmatic language, and these have helped the light bulb go off! :-) Or on I should say! :lol:

Anyway, they have two levels, and even though he is in 5th technically, and we are using the 3.5 to 5th levels... the content is easy enough for him to understand so he can grasp the concept. Anyway... I hope this helps!

 

http://www.highsmith.com/edupress/search/reading%20comprehension/Reading-Comprehension-Book-Inference-Reading-Levels-2035-c_29091871/

 

http://www.highsmith.com/edupress/search/reading%20comprehension/Reading-Comprehension-Book-Figurative-Language-Reading-Levels-2035-c_29092065/

 

http://www.highsmith.com/edupress/search/reading%20comprehension/Reading-Comprehension-Book-Context-Clues-Reading-Levels-2035-c_29092061/

 

 

http://www.highsmith.com/edupress/search/reading%20comprehension/Reading-Comprehension-Book-Cause-amp-Effect-Reading-Levels-2035-c_29091929/

[merry gardens]

Can't wait to hear about them!

My new books arrived. :) I'm so excited about these resources. I ordered several books on language, writing, vocabulary, recalling words, etc. We're taking a little spring break from homeschooling, and I've loaded up with reading material for myself. As I was reading through one today, I remembered this thread. I highly recommend Thinking about Language(Helping Students Say What They Mean and Mean What They Say) by Roberta Stacy. It's put out by the Landmark School Outreach Program. It really sounds like the problem you want to address is his language skills, and that teaching resource book might give you some insights on how to do that.

[VinNY]

Thanks for the recommendation: Thinking about Language(Helping Students Say What They Mean and Mean What They Say) by Roberta Stacy.

 

I think this will be my summer read.

My dtrs receptive skills have taken a leap..but her expressive language is still low.