BJU or Apologia for science oriented student?

[ilovemy4kids]

Which would you choose and why? My son wishes to be a scientist and I simply can't pull something together myself. We must use a curriculum. BJU with DVD's or Apologia. Which prepares the scientific bound college student better?

Thanks

[teachmom3]

I own titles (biology, chemistry, and physics) from both BJUP and Apologia, and have used various permutations of them, depending on the child. However, I have not used the BJUP DVD's, and so I cannot address them. Therefore, the following comments relate to the textbooks and labs of the courses, without DVD support.

 

BJUP's current courses tend to be, in general, more rigorous than Apologia's. On the other hand, Apologia tends to explain concepts more carefully than BJUP does. (These are very global generalizations, I recognize.)

 

BJUP's labs tend to be better in terms of depth and breadth of content than Apologia's. On the other hand, BJUP's labs also tend to be more difficult to do, especially if there is no instructor with a science background available and not much money for lab equipment.

 

I have found more errors in BJUP's texts than I have in Apologia's. However, BJUP tends to have more content so that there is more opportunity for errors. That's not the same thing as saying, however, that I've found a lot of errors! I haven't--only a few.

 

JMHO, but HTH!

[ilovemy4kids]

consensus seems to be BJU is more rigorous. Your input was very helpful. I am still open to opinions! :001_smile:

[Storm Bay]

I asked about Biology when I spoke with Rebecca Keller (scientist) who recommended Apologia rather than BJU. Of course, I didn't care much for the BJU Earth and Space course we bought for my dd, so this could be opinion. I'd also prefer fewer errors and to augment. Right now our plan is for Conceptual Physics and Apologia Biology, but we're not set on Chemistry yet.

[asta]

Which would you choose and why? My son wishes to be a scientist and I simply can't pull something together myself. We must use a curriculum. BJU with DVD's or Apologia. Which prepares the scientific bound college student better?

Thanks

Two of my sisters have science degrees. One has a BS in biology with a concentration in Genetics as well as Masters level coursework in Genetics. The other has a BS in bio/chem and a Masters in Science Education (she teaches HS level science).

 

Both agree that a child who wishes to pursue collegiate level (and beyond) sciences must meet what the scientific community as a whole has decided is the minimum acceptable knowledge base. And, quite often, that minimum is in conflict with what many people are comfortable with teaching/presenting to their homeschooled children (for whatever reason).

 

I have read 10-15 posts on 4 different message boards just in the last week from parents who are perplexed as to why their child did not do well on this test or that class in regards to science, when they had completed a full course of either Apologia or BJU science. I find this to be incredibly sad, as there are excellent science programs available to parents.

 

Parents are strong in their convictions: they can certainly express their family's views to their children regardless of what a book says, and allow a child to have the information he or she needs to be able to operate in a scientific environment while maintaining personal beliefs.

 

Scientific Texts/Programs I have encountered with decent Methadology:

 

Exploring the Way Life Works

http://waylifeworks.jbpub.com/toc.cfm

This biology book has a revolutionary, fresh approach that is being hailed by biologists. The website has linkable lessons.

 

Froguts: Virtual Frog, etc. Dissection for $30

http://www.froguts.com/flash_content/index.html

 

Digital Frog: Virtual Frog, Wetlands, Biology Misc.

http://www.digitalfrog.com/

 

Biology by Prentice Hall

http://www.millerandlevine.com/

Great Website by the authors, has complete virtual lab CD for purchase. Kind of pricey, but book can be found used.

 

Chemistry, Matter and the Universe

by Richard E. Dickerson and Irving Geis

http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/vrchemistry/foundation.html

The book, you have to find online, but this website outlines the complete course, for FREE. Every review I've ever read of this book is exceptional.

 

I second the recommendation for Conceptual Physics (http://www.kineticbooks.com) in general, but Principles of Physics (same publisher) would be more appropriate as a college prep course.

 

 

Best of luck to you.

 

 

asta

[Storm Bay]

Two of my sisters have science degrees. One has a BS in biology with a concentration in Genetics as well as Masters level coursework in Genetics. The other has a BS in bio/chem and a Masters in Science Education (she teaches HS level science).

 

Both agree that a child who wishes to pursue collegiate level (and beyond) sciences must meet what the scientific community as a whole has decided is the minimum acceptable knowledge base. And, quite often, that minimum is in conflict with what many people are comfortable with teaching/presenting to their homeschooled children (for whatever reason).

asta

 

 

This is a good post and I'm interested in checking out these sources. I would like to add for the sake of discussion that if you really want to do Apologia, you can provided you do balance this with a serious look at evolutionary science. The secular science community, whether right or wrong, simply does not accept ID or creationism as scientific, and tests such as the SATs and ACTs reflect this.

 

As for Conceptual Physics, I do know at least one current university Physics professor and one former chemistry professor who do feel it is a good pre-university course, even for a student who wants to major in science. However, by the time students are done high school they should know logic and how to think, which are two of the biggest problem areas coming out of most high schools today. Also, they should be doing proofs in math, particularly in Geometry--and this is almost an exact quote. Many times students will have sound Algebra skills, but not know how to apply it. They can factor polynomials, but when they hit Calculus they can't see when they have to factor by thinking and logic.

 

Also, high school students will need to take Calculus if they're in the US; in Canada this isn't offered until after high school. If you do Conceptual Physics early on in high school, you can always augment the Physics later by doing some physics math problems--I certainly remember doing problems like that in my math classes and I never even took high school Physics.

[RoughCollie]

Thank you so much for recommending this book. It is just what I have been looking for. I explored the website and found used and new copies on Amazon and at http://www.abebooks.com .

 

RC

 

Exploring the Way Life Works

http://waylifeworks.jbpub.com/toc.cfm

This biology book has a revolutionary, fresh approach that is being hailed by biologists. The website has linkable lessons.

[Storm Bay]

Scientific Texts/Programs I have encountered with decent Methadology:

 

Exploring the Way Life Works

http://waylifeworks.jbpub.com/toc.cfm

This biology book has a revolutionary, fresh approach that is being hailed by biologists. The website has linkable lessons.

 

[

asta

 

Is this by Hoagland? When I try to get information on the authors/publisher it goes to a search page instead of that page? I'm trying to see if I can get a copy from our library first to see what I think of it.

[asta]

Yes, it is by Hoagland. But I don't know why you're getting a search page - you should be getting a table of contents page for the book.

 

Here is the publisher page:

 

http://www.jbpub.com/catalog/076371688X/

 

I actually requested a "view" copy from the publisher first. I told them I was a science teacher (I AM, you know... I named my little school and everything...). Then I returned it, as it is bloody expensive to buy texts directly from the publisher. If I hadn't any other way to buy it, though, I probably would have coughed up the $$, because it is a better bio book than anything I've ever seen.

 

 

asta

 

(and you're welcome, Rough Collie)

[schmittgirlz]

Asta, thanks for taking the time to share this invaluable information! The links are extremely helpful as well!

 

Clare

[Storm Bay]

Yes, it is by Hoagland. But I don't know why you're getting a search page - you should be getting a table of contents page for the book.

 

Here is the publisher page:

 

http://www.jbpub.com/catalog/076371688X/

 

I actually requested a "view" copy from the publisher first. I told them I was a science teacher (I AM, you know... I named my little school and everything...). Then I returned it, as it is bloody expensive to buy texts directly from the publisher. If I hadn't any other way to buy it, though, I probably would have coughed up the $$, because it is a better bio book than anything I've ever seen.

 

 

asta

 

 

Thanks for this new link! I got the table of contents and sample pages fine. But when I clicked on the link to find out about the authors and another link, I got these odd pages. However, I'm going to get a copy of this text from our library. There are two different editions there. More than likely, I'm going to use 2 different texts for Biology, and this may be my second one. I have a minor in Biology & dh has a degree in Forest Management, so I want to take a good look at it first.

 

As for Chemistry and Physics, we're going to do Conceptual first, and then move on to the mathy versions later in high school. Same with Calculus. I really think that understanding the concepts first will make the math much more meaningful. For the conceptual Calculus, I'm hoping to find cheap or free (at the library) Teaching Company recordings of their course on this. Also, my brother is sending me his copy of Conceptual Physics free as he doesn't teach any Conceptual Physics courses (he's the Ph.D. physicist I mentioned who thinks it would make a good high school text, btw--he would tell me if he thought it inadequate.) I'll still need to get a lab manual and Instructor's Guide, but hopefully I can get those used.

 

I come from a family with 3 Ph.D.s in Science (an uncle, retired biochemist, a cousin, geneticist, and my brother, physicist) so I do think getting good resources is important. However, it is also important to me that my kids aren't just exposed to one way of thinking about science, which is why it's unlikely we'll stick to one method. For Conceptual Chemistry in gr 9, we're going to add the Thinkwell lectures someone recommended. For Conceptual Physics in gr. 10, the Feynman lectures. For Biology, Apologia and either Campbell or another (which is why I would like to see this one you like and hope to look at the Campbell high school text, too). But used and as cheaply as possible. We'll also make time for honours or AP science later in high school, at least for my eldest who has been science oriented for years.

[asta]

As for Chemistry and Physics, we're going to do Conceptual first, and then move on to the mathy versions later in high school.

Are we talking about the same "Conceptual Physics" book? (for some reason, I don't think we are...). The one I'm referring to is used with Kinetic Books' program (and you don't really need the actual book, as the book and lab are all within the computer program). With their "book", even "Principles of Physics" only uses Trig, not Calc.

 

For Conceptual Physics in gr. 10, the Feynman lectures.

Feynman! This man is directly responsible for my son desiring to become a physicist! We have all of his books. Did you know that many of his lectures are available on the internet? (I think it's YouTube, though it might be Google video - kid found them).

 

 

asta

[Storm Bay]

Are we talking about the same "Conceptual Physics" book? (for some reason, I don't think we are...). The one I'm referring to is used with Kinetic Books' program (and you don't really need the actual book, as the book and lab are all within the computer program). With their "book", even "Principles of Physics" only uses Trig, not Calc. The Conceptual Chemistry book is written by a man who is apparently his nephew.

 

 

Feynman! This man is directly responsible for my son desiring to become a physicist! We have all of his books. Did you know that many of his lectures are available on the internet? (I think it's YouTube, though it might be Google video - kid found them).

 

 

asta

 

 

Probably not! This explains the confusion. I'm referring to the Conceptual Pysics text by Hewitt, which is used in colleges/universities. This is how my brother came to have it. I've heard wonderful things about the Feynman lectures. Thanks for the tip.

 

fwiw, my brother, who is NOT famous, has also been responsible for people choosing to major in Physics--he never made a huge discovery, but he has a gift in teaching. Not that he told me this, as he's modest. I have to pick this up from others. He thinks all his stellar student ratings are exaggerated. But I'll boast for him;).

[asta]

The Conceptual Chemistry book is written by a man who is apparently his nephew.

 

I have no clue how that part got into my part of the message - I didn't write it. Did you?

 

 

asta

[Storm Bay]

I have no clue how that part got into my part of the message - I didn't write it. Did you?

 

 

asta

 

oops!:o I must have. I almost did that once before. Purely by accident. I must have decided to add it and put it in the wrong place. Major brain stall there and I don't even have a migraine.

[asta]

No problems. I hear you on the migraines...

 

So, we're discussing two different books/programs:

 

Conceptual Physics by Paul Hewitt

http://www.conceptualphysics.com/pghewitt.shtml

 

and

 

Conceptual Physics (algebra based) & Principles of Physics (trig based) by the Kinetic Books company

http://www.kineticbooks.com

 

More choices! Choices are always good.

 

 

asta

[tbmoran]

I would suggest Apologia hands down. We have used it for 4 years now. General Science, biology, chemistry, physics, and now advanced biology. We will also be using advanced chemistry next year. In our opinion, it is a very strong and very thorough science program. It is presented in a very understandable manner that my kids have loved. My daughter is going into nursing, and I feel that she is more than prepared to jump into college Anatomy and Physiology. I can't say enough good about this program!

[nuttman]

Or would you need something else for labs/

[Storm Bay]

Or would you need something else for labs/

 

I think you'd need labs. We just took a short look at it. My kids liked it, but it seemed a bit easy for high school (but dd has a lot of science reading under her belt.) It's like The New Way Things Work geared for science. I liked the illustrations. It's totally evolutionary based, so if we do use it, we'll use Apologia, too, but I suspect we'll use Campbell's and Apologia as we're going to do this in gr. 11/junior year and do Chemistry and Physics first. I think that The Way Life Works is definitely too easy for most 16 yos (but I did a minor in Biology, so may not be the best judge.)

[Hilary in MI]

Both agree that a child who wishes to pursue collegiate level (and beyond) sciences must meet what the scientific community as a whole has decided is the minimum acceptable knowledge base. And, quite often, that minimum is in conflict with what many people are comfortable with teaching/presenting to their homeschooled children (for whatever reason).

 

I have read 10-15 posts on 4 different message boards just in the last week from parents who are perplexed as to why their child did not do well on this test or that class in regards to science, when they had completed a full course of either Apologia or BJU science. I find this to be incredibly sad, as there are excellent science programs available to parents.

 

Parents are strong in their convictions: they can certainly express their family's views to their children regardless of what a book says, and allow a child to have the information he or she needs to be able to operate in a scientific environment while maintaining personal beliefs.

 

 

Very well put, Asta.

[beachpotato]

What about earth/space science?