MM Lt. Blue 4A ... I'm starting to unravel

[Create Your Ritual]

I must say that I truly appreciate the amount of material being covered in the MM light blue series. My dd9 is working on 4A Chapter 4: Time and Measuring. The problem stems from the fact that I think some of the word problems in these chapters (ch. 3 - Multiplication) and now this current one are HARD for her. I mean, is the student actually learning anything when the teacher is having to basically walk them through two pages a day... problem by problem? Is that still learning? I just can't be sure. There have been occasions where I have looked at the problem and thought, "Really? How in the world would she know this?" I know there is real value in this type of math, but is constantly confusing the kid with pages of word problems they don't understand how to do really teaching them anything? I would love to think that eventually the light bulb will go off.. and I realize that the world around her is one GIANT word problem after another... I just don't know how to get her 9 year old brain to process it now.

 

When the pages are straight forward math... even 3 digit x 2 digit multiplication, then she can handle that. But give her a word problem with three parts to it and confusion sets in.

 

I need a little grace here... as I am about to hand over the entire math section to my dh to do in early am and late evenings with them. Maybe his method will be better than mine. ;-(

[Veritaserum]

Did she start with MM1 or dd she switch from something else? I ask because my dd that started with MM1 does better than my dds that switched from other programs. I gave up with my 8yo. CLE math works great for her so I'll leave her there for a few more years. With my 10yo I'm working through previous levels of MM. I print of a page or two per concept in each level and we work through several of these pages per day. I'm doing this to give her a better foundation with math as well as better understanding of how MM works. There are multi-step word problems even in the early levels.

 

So, in your situation I might generate extra practice pages and keep working on the current skills until your dd can do them more easily. Or I might go back and work on earlier levels (maybe even just do the word problems from earlier levels) to build a better foundation and boost her confidence.

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes, to answer your question, I pulled both dd9 and ds7 out of ps this year. My youngest is in MM1B right now and flying through it. I spent the summer doing MM3B sample pages with dd9 to gear her up for 4A, but there are still times when we both feel a bit exasperated! I read the verse this morning Colossians 3:21, "Fathers do not exasperate your children, or they will become discouraged." Frankly, that is how we both get to feeling with math right now. I know there is a LOT of value here, and I want to be successful in teaching it to her, but end up feeling like we are spinning our wheels on some of these word problems. She came from Saxon, and I know she didn't enjoy the redundant nature of it. This method is good, but some of these problems ... like, "The batteries on a portable CD player last for 8 hours. You plan to use it every day while walking your dog, which takes about 25 minutes each day. How many days will the batteries last?" or "The month of June has ____ days, ____ x _____ hours, _____ x _____ x _____ minutes, and ____ x ____ x ____ x ____ seconds = ____ seconds. " Well... it's just more than her 9 year old brain can handle. ;-)

 

Is backing up in the same program to do level 3 word problems the solution? Are there other curriculums at a 4th grade level that have word problems and explain things a little more fully than MM? Then we could stay at this level, while getting more of an explanation on how to break down these word problems for her.

[wapiti]

I am about to purchase MM for dd9 who happens to struggle with word problems - she has language processing issues, which results in reading comprehension difficulties, including making inferences. I am planning to spend some time working on word problems using the advice in Math Coach by Wickelgren (see chapter re: "story problems"). I'm also planning to add logic (the set of countdown to logic workbooks, forgot what it's called) - I'm not sure whether that will help. I also bought some cards and workbooks on making inferences, and dd9 is getting language therapy (yuck).

 

I'm kind of treating math and word problems as somewhat separate issues. I'm planning to forge ahead with the math and treat the word problems as a side issue that needs continued work. However, I'm also concerned about making sure her math is solid before we go forward. That makes it hard to plan :tongue_smilie: but I'm hoping she knows enough already that we can get through 4A and 4B by June - we'll be skipping things she already knows as we go along, with a quick review. I won't know for sure until she does the problems.

 

All of this to say that I'm in a similar boat, pulling dd out of school where she was getting a mix of Key to Fractions (we like this but she was not doing enough) and Saxon (teacher wasn't doing enough there either - on lesson 17 :glare: in Saxon 6/5, but then, that's why I pulled her).

Edited December 17, 2010 by wapiti

[Create Your Ritual]

I just found your other post about Math Coach on the forum. I will definitely check that out. I can see where treating word problems as a separate thing from math WOULD be helpful. It certainly would make her feel more successful. The main issue I have at this point with MM is that sometimes we will have days of nothing BUT word problems to do, which can really get her down. I will try to break them up with worksheet generated pages of 'just the facts' and look into this book as well.

 

Any other suggestions for books, curriculum, different perspectives to working through word problems?

[Corraleno]

Is the problem that she doesn't automatically know how many minutes are in an hour, how many hours in a day, etc.? Because if a child knows those things, then the problems themselves don't seem unusually difficult for 4th grade. Maybe you could get the MM Blue books for topics like time, measurement, etc., and have her do some of those pages. Math Mammoth integrates a lot of those topics (time, money, measurement, geometry) into the Light Blue books from the very beginning, so MM 4A may assume that the child already has quite a bit of background in those topics.

 

Jackie

[wapiti]

The main issue I have at this point with MM is that sometimes we will have days of nothing BUT word problems to do, which can really get her down. I will try to break them up with worksheet generated pages of 'just the facts' and look into this book as well.

 

In that case, I may need to make some adjustments, like spreading those word problems out (some every day) and/or skipping some. I haven't purchased it yet, so we'll see (I'm dying to but kind of hoping a coupon might turn up over the holidays; I'm also trying to decide whether to just get grade 4 or to get the whole grade 1-6 package, considering dd9 has five younger sibs; also, there is a little bit of stuff in 5A/B that dd may already know, though I think she'll be busy enough with 4 A/B for now).

 

Any other suggestions for books, curriculum, different perspectives to working through word problems?

:bigear: :lurk5:

 

Is the problem that she doesn't automatically know how many minutes are in an hour, how many hours in a day, etc.? Because if a child knows those things, then the problems themselves don't seem unusually difficult for 4th grade. Maybe you could get the MM Blue books for topics like time, measurement, etc., and have her do some of those pages. Math Mammoth integrates a lot of those topics (time, money, measurement, geometry) into the Light Blue books from the very beginning, so MM 4A may assume that the child already has quite a bit of background in those topics.

 

Jackie

 

Thank you - this is very helpful to know!

[Create Your Ritual]

Yes, it's not that she doesn't know about hours, seconds, weeks in a day etc. It's that when it's presented in a word problem, it automatically boggles her mind and becomes confusing. Ex: "Jane watches TV about 7 hours a week. She swims about 6 hours a week, and does chores about two hours a day. How many hours in a year does she spend with each activity?" This particular problem will automatically presents an issue as it uses weeks, hours, and year all in the same sentence. ;-)

 

It's not that each part is very hard, it's that I have to walk her through each part. Like in the above problem, she has to change chores to hours per week (14) and then figure out from the problem to multiply 7 x 52 weeks, 6 x 52 weeks and finally 14 x 52 weeks. Just getting her to realize that much is a struggle. She does know all the time amounts, and she knows how to actually complete the multiplication problems. She just doesn't understand how to break the problem down into incremental steps and complete them in the correct order to get the final answers.

[Ummto4]

Yes, to answer your question, I pulled both dd9 and ds7 out of ps this year. My youngest is in MM1B right now and flying through it. I spent the summer doing MM3B sample pages with dd9 to gear her up for 4A, but there are still times when we both feel a bit exasperated! I read the verse this morning Colossians 3:21, "Fathers do not exasperate your children, or they will become discouraged." Frankly, that is how we both get to feeling with math right now. I know there is a LOT of value here, and I want to be successful in teaching it to her, but end up feeling like we are spinning our wheels on some of these word problems. She came from Saxon, and I know she didn't enjoy the redundant nature of it. This method is good, but some of these problems ... like, "The batteries on a portable CD player last for 8 hours. You plan to use it every day while walking your dog, which takes about 25 minutes each day. How many days will the batteries last?" or "The month of June has ____ days, ____ x _____ hours, _____ x _____ x _____ minutes, and ____ x ____ x ____ x ____ seconds = ____ seconds. " Well... it's just more than her 9 year old brain can handle. ;-)

 

Is backing up in the same program to do level 3 word problems the solution? Are there other curriculums at a 4th grade level that have word problems and explain things a little more fully than MM? Then we could stay at this level, while getting more of an explanation on how to break down these word problems for her.

 

This type of problem started in -- I think -- MM3 or MM 2B (last chapter) when Maria started to teach about multiplication.

 

There was a walkthrough on how to use multiplication in word problem, e.g. 3 brread per day for 7 day = 21 bread in a week.

 

Also, my 3rd grade son is also solving the type of problems like above in mm3- only they're simpler, e.g. a family eats 3 loaves of bread per week. They have 25 bread in the freezer - how many weeks will it take to finish the bread ?

 

I suggest you to get the blue multiplication book (i.e. the topical one) to get your daughter a good basis on what multiplication is about and to ease her towards this type of problem.

 

I must also mention that my son can also solve multi-step problem of multiplication from MM 3. If your daughter has a difficulty on solving that kind of problem, it's a good idea to do the blue multiplication book.

 

HTH

[ondreeuh]

My kiddo has difficulty with multi-step directions, and thus has difficulty with overly-wordy word problems. It may help to show her a way to organize the information in pictures - such as drawing a TV with the number 7 below it, a water droplet with the number 6 below it, and a broom with the number 2 below it. That may make it easier for her to see that you just add the numbers to count how many hours the activities are done each week. Then move on to the next step.

 

MM may use different terminology than Saxon for the word problems. With my son I have to make sure he's not relying too much on the "cue" words or else he only does half the problem. Drawing pictures really helps him see the big picture - that and re-reading the directions after he does the first part, to make sure he uses that information for the next part.

[PenKase]

I'm kind of treating math and word problems as somewhat separate issues. I'm planning to forge ahead with the math and treat the word problems as a side issue that needs continued work. However, I'm also concerned about making sure her math is solid before we go forward.

 

:iagree:

 

 

FWIW, my dd10 was also pulled out of ps in October and she is currently working on MM 4A, Chapter 1. Word problems have ALWAYS been her Achilles heel!! They're even hard for me sometimes!!! However, being able to apply learned math to real life situations is a crucial skill so master them we must, IMO. I also treat "math and word problems as somewhat separate issues." Currently she is working on the Evan Moor Daily Word Problems Grade 4 book and is having success with it, primarily because she is working at a level behind. I did just order and received the SM CWP 1-4, which I plan to use with dd in January in lieu of the EM DWP.

 

I think it may be a good idea to "park" were you are in MM and work through the word problems with dd. The white board works wonders in my house and it helps dd tremendously to talk her way through any mental blocks as she works on the white board. Alternatively, you can move on in MM and assign one word problem per day to work through together until she shows a firmer grasp. Currently, I have my dd do one word problem/day. In January, I'll have her do them 3x/week. We always go through the assigned math together as soon as she is done in an effort to head off any potential problems.

 

HTH!

 

PS. And yes, MM is hard and it forces my dds to think through the work! Because dd was so used to "false" success in ps and all her school work came easy to her, she sometimes tends to unravel when she doesn't "get" a concept right away. I call MM "brain work" around here.

 

Thank goodness for the answer keys!! I'll need to start printing them out for dd7 who is moving on to MM2A soon :001_huh:

Edited December 17, 2010 by PenKase

[Create Your Ritual]

Hi everyone... I revived this post to give an update of our progress with multi-step word problems since I last posted. I started implementing the idea of allowing her to DRAW the problem out on the dry erase board. As an example, if the problem was about baby Matthew that went to the doctor's office to be weighed in, I would allow her to draw Baby Matthew on the board. When it stated that he weighed this many kg & g today, but weighed THIS many kg and grams the last time he came in ... so how much did he gain since the last time he came in? (This was a problem for a few weeks back, so I don't exactly remember it).. anyway, after allowing her to draw the baby, I would then ask her, "Write what you know about kg and g" and she would write that 1,000g = 1 kg .. then she would begin the process on her own to convert them all to grams, subtract, then convert back to answer the question. It's been like this with a lot of other word problems and we are into Level 4B now and I have noticed a HUGE improvement in her understanding of them. It's like once she got it, she really got it. Thank you all for your advice. Hopefully it will continue in this direction. She is actually really enjoying MM, and the word problems were the only things really bogging her down. They still take longer and more thought, but she is making headway. She actually hugged me today and thanked me for getting to do long division... WHAT?!?!?!? Who are you? ;-) I loved it.