Saxon math is not working out very well :( Switch to TT???

[DaisyMay]

Aarrgghh!!!!! I hate math!!!

 

My son is pretty good in math, but lazy and not very attentive (has dyslexia & adhd). We did CLE math last year, but while he could do the work, he didn't really understand or retain what he was doing.

 

We are doing Saxon 7/6 this year with the DIVE cds. Every day has been a battle. He really hates it. Hates the work, doesn't like the cd, and misses many simple things that he knows. I have him fix every wrong answer and it's never a problem the second time around.

 

My dd, however, is a not a mathy person and cried every day with CLE math. This year she is doing TT7 and LOVES it. She understands it and feels good about doing math. This is a first for her!

 

I'm fine with TT for her because I know she'll never go into a math-heavy field. I wanted my son to do Saxon because I could see him in a math-type field. I don't want to limit his options.

 

Should I switch my son to TT to make our lives easier? Will I ruin him for life if I do? I have heard so many times that TT is light and too easy. I just want him to learn math well and not have it be torture. I hate to spend yet more money on math, but Saxon is just not working out like I thought it would. Should we just tough it out??

 

ARGH!!!! What should I do??? :confused:

 

Gayle

[Tenaj]

I know it's so hard to know what to do in those situations. Let me share what we've been doing, just so you have something to compare.

 

My 13yo did MUS up until last year when I switched him into Saxon 87. He hated it. We used the DIVE just as you are and I'm telling you the truth when I say it was a hard, hard first half of the year. He struggled with making silly mistakes, not wanting to do the work but I really wanted to make the switch (longer story involved there with some of my older kids experiences). If he got below an 80% on a test, he had to go back eight lessons and begin again which happened several times. We finally finished that book about a month ago but he has thanked me for making him stick with it.

 

So, my advice is . . . that if you made the decision to switch over to Saxon in a thoughtful, reasoned manner (and it sounds like you did), stick with it for at least half the book and see how it goes from there. I think there is a huge learning curve in going into those middle grades in Saxon.

[Brindee]

I know it's so hard to know what to do in those situations. Let me share what we've been doing, just so you have something to compare.

 

My 13yo did MUS up until last year when I switched him into Saxon 87. He hated it. We used the DIVE just as you are and I'm telling you the truth when I say it was a hard, hard first half of the year. He struggled with making silly mistakes, not wanting to do the work but I really wanted to make the switch (longer story involved there with some of my older kids experiences). If he got below an 80% on a test, he had to go back eight lessons and begin again which happened several times. We finally finished that book about a month ago but he has thanked me for making him stick with it.

 

So, my advice is . . . that if you made the decision to switch over to Saxon in a thoughtful, reasoned manner (and it sounds like you did), stick with it for at least half the book and see how it goes from there. I think there is a huge learning curve in going into those middle grades in Saxon.

I can agree with this to a certain point. Be careful and very aware though!

 

My dd hated Saxon 76, and I used this same philosophy. I STILL think it has merit, but there's a fine line. She got so frustrated that she began hating math and thinking she was stupid and couldn't do it, therefore shutting down to math. It's taken a couple of years of work to get her out of that mode! :glare: She will never use Saxon again, it (obviously) just didn't work for her. At least we are finally able to move along! :tongue_smilie: She's doing a basic Math DVD from The Teaching Company, which is working BEAUTIFULLY to fill in the gaps. She's also doing TT Algebra 1, and will hopefully finish and be in TT Algebra 2 before this year is done. What I'd really LIKE to do (though it may not work that way) is have her finish up TT Algebra 2 by the beginning of next year, then do Geography (not sure whether it would be TT or some other one) her Sophomore year. As a Junior I'd like her to take a different Algebra 2 to make sure she's really got it down. Not sure if that's a good plan though, but that's where we're at right now.

 

Best wishes!

[DaisyMay]

Both good points. Sticking it out might help teach some perserverence, but if it ends up not working out in the long run, I don't want to build resentment of math, especially when he has always done well with it.

 

I'm just not sure what to do! Maybe we'll try Saxon a bit longer...

[angela&4boys]

Both good points. Sticking it out might help teach some perserverence, but if it ends up not working out in the long run, I don't want to build resentment of math, especially when he has always done well with it.

 

I'm just not sure what to do! Maybe we'll try Saxon a bit longer...

 

We're in the same boat with 8/7 (6 weeks in) after switching from CLE.

 

You've received some great advice thus far. We're going to stick with it for now. I'm hoping that it's partly a learning curve. My ds is particularly frustrated with the math "language" and the word problems, but that is partly why I chose it and what I found lacking in CLE. He was actually doing well with CLE, but since the Sunrise Editions only go through Pre-Algebra for now, I felt we needed to change.

 

Hope I haven't confused you more, and that others will chime in!

[DaisyMay]

We're in the same boat with 8/7 (6 weeks in) after switching from CLE.

 

You've received some great advice thus far. We're going to stick with it for now. I'm hoping that it's partly a learning curve. My ds is particularly frustrated with the math "language" and the word problems, but that is partly why I chose it and what I found lacking in CLE. He was actually doing well with CLE, but since the Sunrise Editions only go through Pre-Algebra for now, I felt we needed to change.

 

Hope I haven't confused you more, and that others will chime in!

 

That is the same boat as us! My son had finished CLE math 5 and did very well with it. He barely placed into Saxon 8/7, which I got for him and realized it was well beyond what he could do. I ended up buying Saxon 7/6, which is what we've been doing. It's very frustrating for him. I really do want Saxon to work, but not sure our relationship can take it :tongue_smilie:

 

Gayle

[angela&4boys]

That is the same boat as us! My son had finished CLE math 5 and did very well with it. He barely placed into Saxon 8/7, which I got for him and realized it was well beyond what he could do. I ended up buying Saxon 7/6, which is what we've been doing. It's very frustrating for him. I really do want Saxon to work, but not sure our relationship can take it :tongue_smilie:

 

Gayle

 

I hear ya, Gayle. The relationship part especially! One day they'll thank us, right? :confused:

 

My ds finished half-way thru CLE 600. I felt the tug to start transfering him to something long-term, but it has been a bit disappointing.

 

One thing that has helped some is the MFW schedule that gives him less problems on some days. If they score an 80% or above on their test, they can continue with that method, but anything lower and they must do all the problems. They only start at 8/7 though, so it'd be another year for your guy.

 

It's such a fine line between causing them to despise math and just making them do the work. [sigh]

[momee]

How many problems per day is your son missing?

I ask because it was hard for me to admit but we had to back up with my daughter because she just plainly did not know the material.

 

Her fact recall, mental math ability and ability to read a lesson on her own and actually retain the information wasn't there.

 

I was embarrassed and went through guilty mom syndrome. She was mad that we had to begin again. BUT we went back to the beginning of the book (7/6 - gasp, she should be in 8/7 but I got over that :)

and did every aspect of the lesson, drill, mental math, etc.

 

I stated clearly she would be redoing any lesson that she missed more than 5 on.

(She only did that once - who wants to redo a SAXON lesson:tongue_smilie:)

She asks for help on a problem if she does not know how to do it which gives me a heads up on what she needs to review and she takes her time doing her calculations because she knows now that's where her errors are coming mostly from.

 

So for us, sticking it out has been a fruitful experience. She's doing very very well now, missing one or two per lesson. She even enjoys it because she feels confident. I kid you not she is upstairs on a Sunday night doing math because she wants to finish this 7/6 book :) and move on to 8/7 with Art Reed DVDs.

 

My son at her age was allowed to switch to TT and I very much regret that decision.

HTH

[NanceXToo]

We started using TT this year for 5th grade. Is it "easier" than other programs so far? Yes. (We've done 8 lessons and 1 quiz so far). With that said, my daughter LOVES math, looks forward to it, and is building a whole lot of confidence right now.

 

Math is not a torture, a struggle, a battle, confusing for her or for me, and she is developing an attitude that "hey, math is fun!" and "Hey, I'm good at math!"

 

Which goes a VERY long way in my opinion. I'd rather have math be "too easy" for now than have a kid who has an "I hate math, I'm no good at math, math is hard' attitude at this young age. I'm trusting that as the program develops and goes along, she'll learn what she needs to learn. Without it being a miserable experience.

 

And in later high school years if I'm discovering or thinking that she needs stronger math skills, I'll do what I need to do, whether that's hiring a tutor, enrolling her in a class, or SOMETHING- especially if it seems she 'needs' it for college, a field she wants to go in, or whatever the case may be.

 

But am I going to make math be a miserable experience in the meanwhile? Heck no, it's not worth it.

 

Nance (who grew up hating math and developed a "math is hard, I'm not good at math" attitude that never went away and doesn't want that to happen to her kids)

[Mandy in TN]

(has dyslexia & adhd). We did CLE math last year, but while he could do the work, he didn't really understand or retain what he was doing.

 

We are doing Saxon 7/6 this year with the DIVE cds. Every day has been a battle. He really hates it. Hates the work, doesn't like the cd, and misses many simple things that he knows. I have him fix every wrong answer and it's never a problem the second time around.

Isn't CLE a spiral math and so is Saxon? If CLE didn't work and Saxon is more of the same, then it probably will not work either.

 

My oldest ds is dyslexic and I always say that I regret leaving him in Saxon as long as I did. My middle ds is a slightly-above-average Joe. I regret ever pulling him out of Saxon. With my oldest I just found that he needed a more mastery approach to learning math. He used MUS for geometry and Alg2 and had absolutely no problem. I wish I had switched him sooner!

 

After MUS Alg2 he didn't do well on the ACT. You know which part he bombed? The basic math/pre-alg section. The section he should have learned with Saxon. He went to Kumon and relearned fractions, decimals, order of ops, etc. (Kumon math is very similar to MUS at that level. We could have used MUS, but he needed to get through a lot of math in one year and report to someone other than me.)

 

In 11th grade, while going to Kumon, he also went to a math tutor who used his on materials (ACT test prep books, PH texts, etc) to keep him solid on what he did know and move him ahead a little in trig. His senior year he did college alg through dual enrollment and made a B without putting forth a ton of effort.

 

My advice with your dyslexic child: use a basal/ mastery program.

 

As a side note- I am currently using Saxon 76 for the third time. Saxon 76 is an odd animal. It has a different feel than 54 and 65. It is very wordy in comparison. So, part of the problem with Saxon 76 for a dyslexic child may be the amount of dialog rather than the actual math.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Kates]

I agree - because Saxon is spiral, it's a nightmare for many dyslexics. My son started 5/4 when he was 8 (he's a math-y kid) and pretty much lost all of his math facts within a few months. (He had done fine with Saxon 2 and 3, which have much more...cohesiveness written in.) The skipping around and sheer amount of work that didn't seem to apply to anything he could hold on to just confused the heck out of him.

 

We switched to MUS, I took him back to Alpha so he could rework those math facts and gain some confidence; he loved it. I let him do it at his own pace, he finished Alpha-Zeta in about 2 years.

 

At that point, I brought him to convention, he looked over all the math programs and chose VideoText. That's what we've been with ever since, and it's worked well. We're supplementing with Life of Fred this year, to give him a "big picture" background for what he'll be doing. (He doesn't want to use LoF as a sole curric, but as a "layer" to help him see why he's doing what he's doing. Dyslexics tend to need to see the big picture and then plug in details later - which is why traditional texts don't tend to work well for them.)

 

He found that it was a lot more clear than TT, both in graphics and in explanation; the lines squiggling around the page kicked his dyslexia into high gear and pretty much made him nauseous. That, and he found the instruction hard to work with.

 

Anyhoo...just my two cents. Saxon is a good, strong program, but is a nightmare for most dyslexic kids simply because of its structure. Many like TT, but I've heard a lot of dyslexic kids say they can't watch the visual - they have to turn away and do the lesson only from the audio. We've had good luck with VideoText.

[AngieW in Texas]

The problem for your ds may be that the programs you've been using are all spiral. He may need a mastery program with review.

 

My youngest is dyslexic and I've found that she often needs different programs from the ones that worked for her sisters.

 

I'm trying MathUSee with her now (it just arrived on Friday), so we'll see how it goes for her. When she tried CLE, it didn't even last one week. She looked at Saxon, and was nearly in tears just looking at it - no way she could ever have used that program. I tried Lial's BCM, but it was way too visually cluttered and had color. MUS is just about the only program I've found that seems to fit what she needs for math - black print on white paper with little or no color, plenty of whitespace, systematic review, and not visually cluttered.

[Mandy in TN]

He found that it was a lot more clear than TT, both in graphics and in explanation; the lines squiggling around the page kicked his dyslexia into high gear and pretty much made him nauseous. That, and he found the instruction hard to work with.

 

Anyhoo...just my two cents. Saxon is a good, strong program, but is a nightmare for most dyslexic kids simply because of its structure. Many like TT, but I've heard a lot of dyslexic kids say they can't watch the visual - they have to turn away and do the lesson only from the audio. We've had good luck with VideoText.

We tried TT briefly and my son did not like the video component. He never said it made him feel sick. He just said it wasn't helpful.

 

VT was the first thing we tried after Saxon. It was a total bomb. My son felt like not only did they take him on a scenic route to get to the destination, but that they were patronizing while they did it. He kept asking why they spoke to students like they were stupid. There seemed to be quite a bit of- now that you know this it's easy and that wasn't hard was it.

 

And none of my sons liked LoF. (I did!) They all wanted to know why they had to read a silly story to do math.

 

So, to each his own. LoF and VT are very chatty basal programs. MUS is a just-the-facts mastery program. Most traditional textbooks are in between the two.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[DaisyMay]

How many problems per day is your son missing?

I ask because it was hard for me to admit but we had to back up with my daughter because she just plainly did not know the material.

 

He's missing a few each day, and I always make him fix them. I think he knows the material, but tries to get through it as fast as he can.

 

Her fact recall, mental math ability and ability to read a lesson on her own and actually retain the information wasn't there.

 

I was embarrassed and went through guilty mom syndrome. She was mad that we had to begin again. BUT we went back to the beginning of the book (7/6 - gasp, she should be in 8/7 but I got over that :)

and did every aspect of the lesson, drill, mental math, etc.

 

I feel the same way! We've homeschooled from the beginning, so this all rests on me. I hate him being behind!

 

I stated clearly she would be redoing any lesson that she missed more than 5 on.

(She only did that once - who wants to redo a SAXON lesson:tongue_smilie:)

She asks for help on a problem if she does not know how to do it which gives me a heads up on what she needs to review and she takes her time doing her calculations because she knows now that's where her errors are coming mostly from.

 

So for us, sticking it out has been a fruitful experience. She's doing very very well now, missing one or two per lesson. She even enjoys it because she feels confident. I kid you not she is upstairs on a Sunday night doing math because she wants to finish this 7/6 book :) and move on to 8/7 with Art Reed DVDs.

 

My son at her age was allowed to switch to TT and I very much regret that decision.

 

Why do you regret switching to TT?

HTH

 

That does help!

Thanks!

Gayle

[momee]

I'll have to pm you on that one :) there's so much out there on the downsides of TT that I thought was hogwash, but now I'm not so sure anymore.

 

I don't hear that about Saxon. What I hear is that it doesn't work for some kids, but the reputation has always been solid with Saxon. I trust that.

 

I read this "He's missing a few each day, and I always make him fix them. I think he knows the material, but tries to get through it as fast as he can."

and think you're dealing with a discipline issue and not a curricula issue. But that's just me being a mom of an undiscipllined (sometimes) guy who likes to shirk out of stuff by being very verbally negative.

 

Just not liking something in my own, personal (just me) opinion isn't a good reason to switch. I say that though, knowing it's a battle and sometimes we aren't willing to die on a certain hill, kwim?

What say your hubbie? Mine would say, exactly this, "Suck it up bud, I don't like ... either but I do it. It's all part of being a man." Lol, I can hear him now actually.

Edited September 27, 2010 by momee

[DaisyMay]

I hadn't thought of Saxon as being organized in a way that would bother him as a dyslexic. We do the DIVE cd's and I sit with him for that. We really don't refer to the book until he starts working the problems.

 

We have used MUS and Bob Jones in the past. MUS was too narrowly focused. My ds wanted more of a variety of topics, rather than just studying one thing so in depth. Bob Jones just was not his thing either. We used the dvd's but it drove him crazy. I also think there wasn't quite enough review.

 

I'm just going to have him suck it up for now, I think. I know he can do it. Maybe I'll try it until Christmas break and see how things are then.

 

I really do wish I felt more comfortable using TT with him. I just have these doubts about it based on the negative feedback I've heard about it.

 

Gayle

[Brindee]

I'll have to pm you on that one :) there's so much out there on the downsides of TT that I thought was hogwash, but now I'm not so sure anymore.

 

I don't hear that about Saxon. What I hear is that it doesn't work for some kids, but the reputation has always been solid with Saxon. I trust that.

 

:001_huh: Seriously? If you look through the many, many math threads on this site you'll find PLENTY of negatives about Saxon, as well as TT, Lial's, MUS, CD, LoF and most ANY math program available! Any math program out there has it's cheerleaders and detractors, so this statement is one more of opinion than fact. Really it all comes down to what works best for your child/homeschool!

 

MUS was too narrowly focused. My ds wanted more of a variety of topics, rather than just studying one thing so in depth.

This is how my dd felt too!

 

I really do wish I felt more comfortable using TT with him. I just have these doubts about it based on the negative feedback I've heard about it.

See my above statement. Then do research and see what might work best for your son (which really is what you're doing in this thread)! :001_smile: Edited September 28, 2010 by Brindee

[EKS]

 

I'm fine with TT for her because I know she'll never go into a math-heavy field. I wanted my son to do Saxon because I could see him in a math-type field. I don't want to limit his options.

 

 

 

Don't limit your daughter's options *for* her by choosing a less rigorous program simply because you assume that she will "never go into a math heavy field."

 

As for your son, Saxon isn't the only or most rigorous program out there, and isn't necessarily the best program for math oriented students. So changing isn't a bad thing, necessarily. But changing to TT specifically may not be what you want.

[Brindee]

Don't limit your daughter's options *for* her by choosing a less rigorous program simply because you assume that she will "never go into a math heavy field."

 

As for your son, Saxon isn't the only or most rigorous program out there, and isn't necessarily the best program for math oriented students. So changing isn't a bad thing, necessarily.

:iagree:

 

But changing to TT specifically may not be what you want.

But, then again, it might!

[momee]

Thanks Brindee for this -

"so this statement is one more of opinion than fact."

 

I agree. My opinion is that what I've read about Saxon has proven itself over time. Our experience with TT and therefore my personal opinion has shown it hasn't. Not to say it hasn't worked well for some, it just didn't meet my expectations.

 

I definitely should have been more clear that I was stating my opinion.

Thanks for the reminder.

Edited September 28, 2010 by momee

[Rosy]

We switched from Saxon 76 to TT Pre-Al this year. DD is really enjoying it and says she's learning stuff that she didn't learn in Saxon (and so far we're still reviewing multiplication and division). I think there's something about TT that makes sense to her. She gets her work done without struggle, where Saxon was dry and boring to her.

 

I figure even if it's less rigorous than some texts, we can always supplement or take extra time later if it's needed.

[Brindee]

Thanks Brindee for this -

"so this statement is one more of opinion than fact."

 

I agree. My opinion is that what I've read about Saxon has proven itself over time. Our experience with TT and therefore my personal opinion has shown it hasn't. Not to say it hasn't worked well for some, it just didn't meet my expectations.

 

I definitely should have been more clear that I was stating my opinion.

Thanks for the reminder.

I didn't mean that rudely, I hope it didn't come across that way!

 

I totally undertand where you're coming from! I've read the positives about Saxon, that's why I tried it! It didn't pan out for my kids, even though I WANTED it to! :tongue_smilie: It wasn't until after our experience that I noticed there actually were messages by others that Saxon didn't work for either. It just made me feel better realizing that though it worked well for lots of people, it wasn't just us that had problems with it. But then again, things that worked for my kids did NOT work for others.... :001_smile:

 

I just want to make sure people realize that they can find positive and negative comments about most any curriculum, so they can ask, and take the comments and try things out, but if that curriculum doesn't work for their child, IT'S OKAY!

 

If only we could all see and touch and try out these curriculums before-hand to get a truer picture of what might work for our family the best!