Math decisions....

[Tidbits of Learning]

I am still having difficulty determining what math to choose and stick with for my oldest child. She is in the 5th grade. We pulled her out of public school after finishing 3rd grade. During homeschool 4th, I discovered that all those A's for public school math were useless. She was about a grade behind. We schooled intensively and through the summer except for one month off from math and now she is probably only 1/2 a year behind.

I had purchased Saxon 5/4, but after receiving it decided it was not for us. Now we are finishing up some Singapore that we had left over from last year while I try to figure out what to purchase for her in order to get her on grade level math.

I am leaning towards either R&S Math 4 (beginning with the 2nd half of the year) or Teaching Textbooks 5. My 4th grade dd will also be using this math and is ahead for her grade a little bit. They both test into Teaching Textbooks 5. R&S doesn't have a test, but I am going through the table of contents and feel she has covered the first half of the year already.

Whatever I choose, we will finish through until Algebra before switching again.

Thanks for any help. We also test yearly and she was behind in math computations last year on standardized testing but advanced in math concepts and applications. She needs to test well this year.

[Closeacademy]

One of the best things about Rod and Staff is that there is plenty of review. There is enough review that you can skip some some. It is a solid program.:001_smile:

[Mallory]

You might get better help if you explain what is or isn't working with what you have tried.

 

Why don't you keep using Singapore? What level did she get too?

 

What don't you like about Saxon?

 

Why R&S or TT? (Those seem like almost opposites on the spectrum.)

 

Are you sure that they should be in the same book? What happens if the younger passes her or if the younger feels way behind?

 

Just some questions that came to mind as I read your post ;). Good luck!

[Tidbits of Learning]

Sorry, I was trying to keep from writing a novel on our math issues.

 

Why don't you keep using Singapore? What level did she get too?

She has completed through 3A in Singapore, but then she can't pass the placement tests for 2b. She started in 2b last year and completed through 3a. I bought the Singapore Practice books as well. It just seems to not be enough for her to remember the facts or really cement 3 digit multiplication or division.

What don't you like about Saxon?

Saxon seemed overwhelming after I purchased it. I had purchased both 5/4 and 6/5.

Why R&S or TT? (Those seem like almost opposites on the spectrum.)

This will sound kind of sheepish, but she tests in at her grade level. I know it seems odd to focus so much on the grade level, but after her testing below the stanine she needed last year...I really need her to test on level this year. Another Mom at the co-op (who is a certified teacher) recommended it as well. She is bringing it for me to look at next Monday.

R&S seems solid. It is inexpensive and re-usable. I have 4 kids so that is a plus. She also has completed R&S 2 in between 2nd and 3rd grade public school and did well with it. I have used it before and like it. The only reason I didn't use it last year was b/c of the amount of writing. I don't think that will be an issue this year.

 

Are you sure that they should be in the same book? What happens if the younger passes her or if the younger feels way behind?

This is more to do with time and cost than anything else. The younger child is already more prone to excel in math than the older. My older child is gifted in language arts and I plan to emphasize that we all have our strengths and weaknesses. Honestly, my 4th grader could go into the 5th grade book without an issue right now. My older child lost ground in math during ps 3rd grade when they spent 6 months doing nothing but preparing for the state test. My current 4th grader didn't lose ground in 3rd grade b/c we were homeschooling and we schooled until the week of testing.

Those 6 months made a huge difference between where my current 4th grade was in math at the beginning of 4th grade and where dd 5th grade was last year at the beginning of 4th grade.

If I start R&S 4th, I will start the younger at the beginning of the book and my older at the 1/2 way point or 2nd semester work. I am hoping to finish 4th grade in one semester and then work on 5th 2nd semester and summer to have her ready to begin 6th grade work next fall.

The cost of teaching textbooks and the placement tests would necessitate them both starting in TT5.

 

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.

[Mallory]

I am not trying to pick on you and you don't even have to answer my questions. Again these are just some things I noticed.

 

Why is it so important she does good on the test?

 

Why do you think "teaching to the test" is what got her behind in math but still think you need to teach to the 5th grade test?

 

4-8th grade math classes really teach the same thing-using the 4 basic operations to manipulate bigger and bigger numbers and numbers that are fractional parts (so fractions, decimals, and percents). If you don't have your basic operations down, then you are only going to get farther behind. 3rd grade is often a big trasition because they are expected to start doing those multiple digit mult and div problems. If she is stuck on those then you need to start in some program that is going to go over those again.

 

I think you have already decided on R&S. I think you should start with 3 and let her test through it by doing a test or review for each chapter and letting her skip to the next if she does well (I'd say 90% at least) or do the chapter if she had problems with the test. While I haven't seen TT, I have read on here many times that it is a year behind so many would say that she is still just doing 4th grade work. But that can also really help the confidence of a kid who wants to be doing on grade work.

 

Which leads me to my next point- I have two kids in 4th and 5th, and I can tell you that having them both in the same math book, especially if my older was struggling and my younger passed by him, would not be good here. Could your younger do Saxon? Or continue in Singapore? Or do R&S while the older does TT? Then they could both really work at thier levels.

 

Another thought might be to get some work book that is only multiplication or division to work on- Kumon has ones that are highly reccomended, I think Developemental Math is by subject- both of those are also affordable, and I am sure there are more to pick from.

 

Again I am sorry if I wasn't much help. So often when I post on here I know if we were just sitting in your kitchen talking about this while the kids played it would be so much nicer and more helpful and less offensive than anything I carefully post on here.

 

I don't suppose you live near NW Arkansas?

[mcconnellboys]

I'd stick with Singapore or move into Russian Math (Perpendicular Press)....

[mcconnellboys]

If she needs extra drill alongside Singapore, I'd use the Key to..... series books.

[Tidbits of Learning]

Why is it so important she does good on the test?

She has to make a certain stanine to be considered making progress. I like home schooling and she has to show progress. Otherwise, I might as well go sign her up at the local school right now.

 

Why do you think "teaching to the test" is what got her behind in math but still think you need to teach to the 5th grade test?

I don't think I need to teach to the 5th grade test. I think they quit teaching and only practiced taking tests for half a year. Hence, she started 4th grade without having completed the 2nd half of 3rd grade. I don't plan to teach to the 5th grade test. However, she can't pass a 5th grade standardized test doing lower work. I plan to catch her up to her grade level work. I have to get her to 5th grade level work this year.

 

She has completed Seton Math 3 over the summer and it was pretty solid math. It covered what is covered in the 1st half of R&S 4. I have tried R&S 3 last year and she does not need to cover it again. She is more or less stuck in between 4th and 5th grade math right now.

 

 

 

I thought about sticking with Singapore Math, but she doesn't seem to be retaining it after we finish. She completes the work and scores well and we go over her mistakes and correct them. However, after shoring up the math facts and skills with Seton 3 (after testing poorly), she tested back at the beginning of 2b Singapore. :confused: :glare:

Maybe it is the difference in styles? She used Houghton Mifflin in public school. I am not trying to teach to the test, but she has to show progress. She was behind b/c they stopped teaching and just practiced test taking skills for 5 months. She tested well on the state's math test in 3rd grade. Because they quit teaching math and only focused on practicing for the test, she did not gain any of the 2nd semester 3rd grade math skills. So I spent our first homeschool year discovering this fact and then dropping back from 4th grade math to shore up the skills she should have learned in 2nd semester 3rd grade math. So by the end of the year she had barely had 4th grade level math before standardized testing.

We are using Calculadder and hot dots flashcards every day. She is no longer completely dependent on the math facts finder. I am not trying to teach to a test, but she can't continue work at a lower level and pass a standardized test for her grade level. I can't say she is in 5th grade and doing 4th grade math. I can only give her one grade level. Otherwise, I would be saying she is in 5th grade but reading 8th grade level. They don't care if she is ahead in one subject, but they sure care if she is behind in a subject.

I am not sure what I want to do at this point. She and her sister dd 4th grade already use the same Wordly Wise and Can do Cursive. I don't see doing the same math being a big issue. I don't see the need to purchase 2 different maths for 2 kids who are on the same level of math instruction. I am teaching 4 kids. The girls do history, science, handwriting, and vocabulary together right now.

I haven't purchased since selling Saxon math in order to gain time to really think through our math choice. I know Rod and Staff is solid math. She is basically a semester behind right now b/c that is the way she came to me from public school. I am playing catch up. I am wondering which math is better to play catch up and work through before the need to show progress with standardized testing.

I have tried Seton which moves to Saxon Math after 4th grade. So I can't continue with it. She does not like Singapore and doesn't seem to be moving forward with it and retaining math skills with it. R&S 3 was redundant, but R&S 4 looks very different from R&S 3. Teaching Textbooks would allow her to work quickly through review and slow down when she needs as well.

I am basically trying to figure out which would work better for a child that isn't lacking in math skill as much as she lost 1/2 a year of math instruction and has been playing catch up ever since.

[Guest]

I think you should use R&S 4... have your older dd take the tests until the scores go down, then start with that chapter. Start your younger dd in the beginning if that is where you think she places. As soon as your oldest dd finishes the 4th grade book, have her do the 5th grade book... she can do some summer school (for one subject) and be on grade level by next year. Good luck!

 

ETA: I wouldn't do any program, that most say is a year behind, if you are concerned about getting her on grade level.

[Mallorie]

My 4th grader who was public schooled through 1st with Everyday Math, then parochial schooled through 3rd with Saxon is now homeschooled in 4th and enjoying Rod and Staff 4.

 

He likes the simplicity of it, the fact that he can do it relatively unassisted, but that it challenges him more than Saxon. These are his words.

 

So I would vote for Rod and Staff + Right Start math games. That's what we're doing, and from the sounds of your dd's background, might be a good fit for her. If she's been behind, then schooled intensively, it might be nice for her to take a year of just "doing math" simply, getting over with it for the day and moving on to other things, kwim?

 

I'm a total newbie though, so take this for what it's worth. :)

 

ETA: I've read a lot about R&S being a year behind other programs, as far as math. But it's right where my ds needs to be, and my research from veteran R&S users is that they go through 8th and transition right into an Algebra program, and do well.

 

Also want to throw out there that my 1st and 7th graders are going back to Saxon. You just have to go with what fits. HTH

Edited September 22, 2010 by Mallorie

[TKDmom]

It sounds like you've liked R&S, so I would stick with that.

 

And, ugh, I'd move to a state that doesn't require testing. :tongue_smilie: (That's easy for me to say, right?) It's completely unfair that they require you to make sure that she gets a certain score on the test, when the ps can't. Would they require kids to go back to homeschooling if they failed the math test after a year of ps?

 

:grouphug:

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

I am still having difficulty determining what math to choose and stick with for my oldest child. She is in the 5th grade. We pulled her out of public school after finishing 3rd grade. During homeschool 4th, I discovered that all those A's for public school math were useless. She was about a grade behind. We schooled intensively and through the summer except for one month off from math and now she is probably only 1/2 a year behind.

I had purchased Saxon 5/4, but after receiving it decided it was not for us. Now we are finishing up some Singapore that we had left over from last year while I try to figure out what to purchase for her in order to get her on grade level math.

I am leaning towards either R&S Math 4 (beginning with the 2nd half of the year) or Teaching Textbooks 5. My 4th grade dd will also be using this math and is ahead for her grade a little bit. They both test into Teaching Textbooks 5. R&S doesn't have a test, but I am going through the table of contents and feel she has covered the first half of the year already.

Whatever I choose, we will finish through until Algebra before switching again.

Thanks for any help. We also test yearly and she was behind in math computations last year on standardized testing but advanced in math concepts and applications. She needs to test well this year.

 

Ok, my ds10 had very similar problems last year. We did Singapore from 1st grade and once we got to 4A he didn't know any of the facts. He had a really hard time with division, couldn't understand it, and hated fractions. Singapore just doesn't have enough review for him, and it bugs me to have to supplement a curriculum. I borrowed a Saxon book (5/4) from a friend who swears by it, and I have to say it really works for him. I don't like Saxon Math myself, I am amazed that he does so well with it because it is a lot of work, but he thrives on it. It explains things so well, and all the review is what he needs. At the beginning of this year, we started Saxon 6/5 and when we got to division he finally understands it. He is now doing long division quickly and efficiently without complaint.

[Guest]

My 4th grader who was public schooled through 1st with Everyday Math, then parochial schooled through 3rd with Saxon is now homeschooled in 4th and enjoying Rod and Staff 4.

 

He likes the simplicity of it, the fact that he can do it relatively unassisted, but that it challenges him more than Saxon. These are his words.

 

So I would vote for Rod and Staff + Right Start math games. That's what we're doing, and from the sounds of your dd's background, might be a good fit for her. If she's been behind, then schooled intensively, it might be nice for her to take a year of just "doing math" simply, getting over with it for the day and moving on to other things, kwim?

 

I'm a total newbie though, so take this for what it's worth. :)

 

ETA: I've read a lot about R&S being a year behind other programs, as far as math. But it's right where my ds needs to be, and my research from veteran R&S users is that they go through 8th and transition right into an Algebra program, and do well.

 

Also want to throw out there that my 1st and 7th graders are going back to Saxon. You just have to go with what fits. HTH

 

There are a few who say that, but the majority of people do not. I think if almost everyone said that, I would worry. I, personally, think R&S is completely average... right on track for the grade. The first three grades move slowly (but surely), but it picks up in the 4th grade. I also think many other programs (i.e. A Beka) are ahead. I think it's a trend for math programs to be advanced, and it makes the ones that are right on grade level look behind. I even worried (at one point) that R&S was behind (when I compared it to A Beka) then someone told me they were ahead. Then my kids did "super well", lol, on their standardized tests, so I knew it couldn't be behind when they knew everything on the test. So don't worry!

 

ETA: http://cathyduffyreviews.com/math/rod-and-staff-arithmetic.htm

Edited September 22, 2010 by Jinnah

[Guest]

Ok, my ds10 had very similar problems last year. We did Singapore from 1st grade and once we got to 4A he didn't know any of the facts. He had a really hard time with division, couldn't understand it, and hated fractions. Singapore just doesn't have enough review for him, and it bugs me to have to supplement a curriculum. I borrowed a Saxon book (5/4) from a friend who swears by it, and I have to say it really works for him. I don't like Saxon Math myself, I am amazed that he does so well with it because it is a lot of work, but he thrives on it. It explains things so well, and all the review is what he needs. At the beginning of this year, we started Saxon 6/5 and when we got to division he finally understands it. He is now doing long division quickly and efficiently without complaint.

 

I've heard many wonderful things about Saxon... once we hit algebra, that's what we will be doing. Thanks for the review!

[Tidbits of Learning]

It sounds like you've liked R&S, so I would stick with that.

 

And, ugh, I'd move to a state that doesn't require testing. :tongue_smilie: (That's easy for me to say, right?) It's completely unfair that they require you to make sure that she gets a certain score on the test, when the ps can't. Would they require kids to go back to homeschooling if they failed the math test after a year of ps?

 

:grouphug:

 

Actually in ps if they "fail" the math or language arts on the test they hold them back the complete grade whether or not they passed during the year on the actual work. It is part of the wonderful NCLB agenda.

I have no idea how it works if your child continues to not make progress. A friend changed the way that she registers with the state to avoid this after her son tested poorly on math as well. If you aren't registered with the state as a home study at a certain point, your children aren't eligible for the state college tuition program. We have 4 kids and will probably need the tuition help.

[Tidbits of Learning]

I am so unsure what to do this year with math. When we went through 2a and 2b last year, I did not have the HIG's. I was using activities from an all in one curriculum. I have the HIG's this year.

We are almost through with Singapore 2b and the kids are doing pretty good. I am hung up on the grade level because of standardized testing and having them exposed to the math that will be on their level on the test.

I know the Practice books by Schaffer say the 3a is equivalent to 4th grade. The practice book I bought for 1a says it is equivalent to 2nd grade. So am I stressing for nothing? Do the numbers really not mean 2nd and 3rd and 4th grade and so on?

If I continue with the schedule I have now, the girls will finish 3b by May. They will complete 2b, 3a, and 3b in this school year. If I go by the Schaffer grade level equivalent then that puts dd 4th grade in a great position, but leaves dd 5th grade a little behind.

On Singapore's site, it says if you have an average student that 4th should be 3b, 4a and 5th would be 4b, 5a. Should I quit stressing the levels?

Where do you go after 6a/6b? Do you go straight into pre-algebra or algebra? I think I could quit stressing and leave math be this year if I felt that it would all come out in the wash and by 8th grade she would be ready for pre-algebra.

In my head, if she finishes 2b, 3a, and 3b in 5th, then...

6th-4a, 4b, 5a

7th-5b,6a,6b

8th-Pre-Algebra

Am I just stressing too much b/c I am worried about the test in the spring? She is liking Singapore math better this year. I understand it a lot better with the HIG's.

I was all set to purchase yesterday and get something else, but I know I am not switching again if I switch until pre-algebra and it is a big commitment. I am worried about switching in a clutch moment (like I did last year) and something not working again. Should I just finish out the year and see where we are at and not stress the test at all? Or am I doing her a disservice if I don't worry about the grade level and keeping her on grade level in math?

Thanks in advance for any advice and help. I really just don't want to do like I did last year and hit a rough spot and switch, hit another speed bump and switch...until we have tried 3 or 4 things all year and not completed a single one of them.

[Dina in Oklahoma]

Hello~

 

Math has been my DD's (11.5) nemisis. We found Rod and Staff to be our answer. I did add Math on the level as a supplement this year because I what to ensure that she understands what she doing as well as how to apply processes or formulas.

 

The two programs work so very well together. DD is actually enjoying math and her confidence is building! :party:MOTL is pricey, but for me is worth every penny as I want to know she has mastered arithmatic so she can do well in higher level math. It has been invaluable in the short time we have used it --especally in detecting gaps in her understanding of math.

 

She had used Saxon, Abeka, and a home grown program in a Christian school she attended. DD will use R&S through level 7 then onto Lial's Basic College Math.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dina :001_smile:

Edited September 23, 2010 by Dina in Oklahoma