Grade this:

[Capt_Uhura]

So have you liked WWE? How does it compare to FLL? MCT?

 

Oh I'm a total MCT groupie! Hands down our most favorite curriculum and I'm a math/science person. I think WWE and MCT focus on two very different but complementary skills so I continue w/ WWE. I only did the first year of FLL and I was OK with it. But MCT really fits my boys learning style....snuggle together, read, discuss, read the parts, and daily practice to cement the knowledge gained. My oldest also completed GWG4. That was OK but I feel like retention w/ MCT has been excellent....GWG didn't give that same level of retention. GWG certainly did NOT impart a love of language that MCT has given them. IT was something to get through and check off the list as was FLL.

 

I firmly believe in the value of copywork, narration, and dictation. For me, WWE makes it painless. We're in WWE3 now and it reinforces the grammar concepts we've covered in MCT Island.

 

Have to head to a soccer meeting....more later.

[Aubrey]

Oh I'm a total MCT groupie! Hands down our most favorite curriculum and I'm a math/science person. I think WWE and MCT focus on two very different but complementary skills so I continue w/ WWE. I only did the first year of FLL and I was OK with it. But MCT really fits my boys learning style....snuggle together, read, discuss, read the parts, and daily practice to cement the knowledge gained. My oldest also completed GWG4. That was OK but I feel like retention w/ MCT has been excellent....GWG didn't give that same level of retention. GWG certainly did NOT impart a love of language that MCT has given them. IT was something to get through and check off the list as was FLL.

 

I firmly believe in the value of copywork, narration, and dictation. For me, WWE makes it painless. We're in WWE3 now and it reinforces the grammar concepts we've covered in MCT Island.

 

Have to head to a soccer meeting....more later.

 

I've gone back & forth w/ WWE ever since it came out. I was about to order it, convinced I wouldn't like it, & dh laughed at me. So I ordered *nothing.*

 

I didn't like FLL very well, & so I've been afraid that WWE wouldn't be a good fit, either. It's hard to say.

 

I did dictation w/ ds about an hr ago. I used a piece he's been memorizing from history, so it was a little more "studied." I told him what to pay attention to, gave him a couple of minutes to look at it for that, & then read it to him while he wrote it.

 

He ended up in tears, but...I'm thinking about giving it a trial run. I've eaten my own words before--I'm thrilled to be wrong if it means I know something new. But the overwhelmingness (I know that's not a word) of finding the stuff to dictate/copy reminds me of the yr we started hs'ing. I spent HOURS working on copy work for him & then didn't really use it.

 

Partly, I chose stuff that was too long & convoluted. Partly, I spent too much time choosing stuff. But I *hate* putting anything together myself. I'm too perfectionistic, & I'll end up spending all my time working on the thing than hs'ing my kids. :lol:

[Kuovonne]

I did dictation w/ ds about an hr ago. [...] He ended up in tears, but...I'm thinking about giving it a trial run. [...] But the overwhelmingness (I know that's not a word) of finding the stuff to dictate/copy reminds me of the yr we started hs'ing. I spent HOURS working on copy work for him & then didn't really use it.

 

If he ended up in tears over the dictation, the passage was too hard for him.

 

WWE works on narration (summarizing) as well as dictation. If he needs to work on both skills equally, it would probably be a good fit. The workbooks provide all the passages and dictations for you. WWE is nothing like FLL.

 

However, if you want to use dictation to work on spelling as well as mechanics, you should consider Spelling Plus Dictation. It provides ready-to-dictate sentences and paragraphs. (Paragraph dictation is what finally got my daughter to capitalize sentences after the first one. )

[Aubrey]

If he ended up in tears over the dictation, the passage was too hard for him.

 

WWE works on narration (summarizing) as well as dictation. If he needs to work on both skills equally, it would probably be a good fit. The workbooks provide all the passages and dictations for you. WWE is nothing like FLL.

 

However, if you want to use dictation to work on spelling as well as mechanics, you should consider Spelling Plus Dictation. It provides ready-to-dictate sentences and paragraphs. (Paragraph dictation is what finally got my daughter to capitalize sentences after the first one. )

 

Do you have any thoughts on CW? :001_smile:

[Capt_Uhura]

That's exactly why I went with WWE. It's all done for me! I didn't want to spend time looking for a passage that had a dependent and independent clause in it, for example.

 

Here's a WWE3 dictation from week 10.

 

"The haymows were warm with the warmth of all the stock below, and the hay smelled dusty-sweet."

 

From week 13:

Hours later his reluctant ear was pierced by the frantically repeated sound of his name. "Oliver! Oliver! cried Cuffy.

 

My son learned how to punctuate dialogue through copywork and dictation. It wasn't anything we ever went over and yet when he writes, he gets it correct almost every time.

 

Week 12:

We left Baghdad at once. We set sail, and steered our course through the Persian gulf. The Persian Gulf is formed by the coasts of Arabia on the right and persia on the left.

 

 

 

 

Are any of those similar to what you gave him today?

[8filltheheart]

The revised version of the 2nd paper was not my goal. The 1st version was the 1st time he'd put enough content into a response to really be able to work on it, if that makes sense. So we talked about it, we talked about organization, big things like that.

 

On the 2nd draft of the Houston paper, he really got excited about writing. He *wanted* to keep working on it, adding detail, length, etc. This was *very* unusual for him, & he showed almost a natural ability to reorganize his thoughts logically. The mechanics still needed work, & we talked about those, but I didn't want to squash the enthusiasm.

 

Honestly, the 2nd draft far exceeds my expectations as far as content & length. The mechancis still make me uncomfortable, but for a kid that I had to twist into a pretzel to get more than a sentence to suddenly, out of nowhere do this & enjoy it...baffled me, so I tried to go w/ it.

 

Well, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

 

If I compared what my 2nd grader wrote to other second graders, it would probably be lacking to some degree. However, I am not at all worried about what other second graders are actually doing. :D She has an excellent grasp of grammar. She is not intimidated about writing in the slightest. (She does have newspaper stories that rival your ds's in length but I am too lazy to type that much in! :tongue_smilie:) We'll start covering the structure of writing during the beginning of third grade and by the middle of third grade she'll actually have writing assignments. And then......well, we'll just move forward one step at a time! (I have no idea what those steps will even be! I just play it by ear according to the needs of the child!)

Edited June 13, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[Karen in CO]

Aubrey, my dd9 is taking a practice test from a test prep book. She wrote this today in response to: Write a paragraph about something you have mixed feeling about.

 

I don't have mixed feelings about anything. I can't have mixed feelings because I am stuborn and precise. The world would run a lot better if peple had fewer mixed feelings.

 

So if you want another 9yo to compare to, there it is. She spent less than 5 minutes and refused to add more content because she assured me that three sentences were enough for a paragraph about such a terrible topic. Next year, we will work on increasing output. We've been relaxed about writing so far. First, we focused on reading, and then we focused heavily on math. I guess next year will be our writing year.

[Aubrey]

That's exactly why I went with WWE. It's all done for me! I didn't want to spend time looking for a passage that had a dependent and independent clause in it, for example.

 

Here's a WWE3 dictation from week 10.

 

"The haymows were warm with the warmth of all the stock below, and the hay smelled dusty-sweet."

 

From week 13:

Hours later his reluctant ear was pierced by the frantically repeated sound of his name. "Oliver! Oliver! cried Cuffy.

 

My son learned how to punctuate dialogue through copywork and dictation. It wasn't anything we ever went over and yet when he writes, he gets it correct almost every time.

 

Week 12:

We left Baghdad at once. We set sail, and steered our course through the Persian gulf. The Persian Gulf is formed by the coasts of Arabia on the right and persia on the left.

 

 

 

 

Are any of those similar to what you gave him today?

 

Ahem. No. I gave him his choice between the first sentence of the Gettysburg Address or the first half of the first stanza of O Captain! My Captain!

 

Since he's been memorizing the poem, he chose that. I had reservations, but...went w/ it anyway. :001_huh:

 

Fwiw, he teared up *before* the assignment, when I was just describing what he'd need to do. His eyes kinda popped out of his head &...well, looking at the samples from WWE, maybe there was a reason. :lol:

[Aubrey]

Aubrey, my dd9 is taking a practice test from a test prep book. She wrote this today in response to: Write a paragraph about something you have mixed feeling about.

 

I don't have mixed feelings about anything. I can't have mixed feelings because I am stuborn and precise. The world would run a lot better if peple had fewer mixed feelings.

 

So if you want another 9yo to compare to, there it is. She spent less than 5 minutes and refused to add more content because she assured me that three sentences were enough for a paragraph about such a terrible topic. Next year, we will work on increasing output. We've been relaxed about writing so far. First, we focused on reading, and then we focused heavily on math. I guess next year will be our writing year.

 

Well, I think her response is brilliant. I'm laughing out loud!

[Karen in CO]

Well, I think her response is brilliant. I'm laughing out loud!

 

See - it annoyed me.

 

It is much easier to grade someone else's writing. Once my ds got to highschool, the best I could do was read his papers and say, "Wow, that was good." We would then go through an editing checklist together.

[Kuovonne]

Do you have any thoughts on CW? :001_smile:

 

Sorry, no.

I've cast curious glances at the samples as I've strolled by at a couple of conventions, but that's it.

[8filltheheart]

Well, I think her response is brilliant. I'm laughing out loud!

 

:iagree: Me, too! Great and concise!!

[lionfamily1999]

I thought of that but I've not seen any issues w/ my DS9. We do copywork and dictation w/ WWE. He's done WWE1,2 and half way through level 3. He has also taken several Bravewriter classes and writes with most conventions during the freewrite but if he has a word he doesn't know how to spell, he simply underlines it to remind himself to look it up later. Sometimes he doesn't capitalize proper nouns inside a sentence but for a first draft/freewrite, I'm not concerned about that at all. The more he does dictations, the more proper grammar, form, capitalization shows up in his freewrites.

 

I"m not sure how I reconcile this with getting thoughts down on paper correctly the first time. For short things, yep, I agree. But for longer works, there is so much editing, re-working, I don't see a point in trying to write it down all correctly the first time. That's what the editing phase is for. I need to think about this more.

In December, ds started using Writing Strands 3. This does ask him for completely original work, but there is an emphasis on doing it right. You know, for something like a paper I would expect many more mistakes. Once ds starts writing longer and longer things, I will expect more and more mistakes. For now, though, he doesn't write much more than a paragraph. His letter writing is the closest to actual "free" writing he does, and even there, he prefers to talk it out first.

 

For now, I guess, he still needs to make his thoughts into words (aloud) and then into written words.

 

I suppose I just don't see the need for an editing stage just yet, but again, we don't do much "free" writing (that gets checked by me anyway :p I don't say a thing about what he does in his off time).

So...what do you think about WTM's recs w/ regard to narration? Wouldn't that sort-of qualify as "creative"?

 

Ds loves history, & he can answer any kind of multiple choice question about the content. He can *talk* about it, if I wait a week to ask him. He does ok w/ the review questions in the SOTW AG. But the narrations themselves? Oy.

 

And if I push it too hard, he just stops. Somehow, he'll get it in his head that he can't do something, & that's it. So we've done fewer & fewer narrations over the yrs. I imagine that's the polar opposite of what he needed--practice & all. But there ya go. I've been telling dh for yrs that I'm worried I'm not doing a good job.

It does qualify as creative, but (but but) ds is still at the stage where he tells me his narration and I dictate it back to him. All of his editing, now that I think about it, happens before he even picks up his pencil. Once he's finished his oral narration, I dictate it back and he then can use all his juices to get the spelling and punctuation correct.

 

There are rare occassions (see Mom's not so great as spelling) where he has to write his narrations solo. In those cases it's only a few sentences and he reads it over before it comes to me.

 

Aw, I guess we do edit after all :lol:

[Carol in Cal.]

Aubrey, my dd9 is taking a practice test from a test prep book. She wrote this today in response to: Write a paragraph about something you have mixed feeling about.

 

I don't have mixed feelings about anything. I can't have mixed feelings because I am stuborn and precise. The world would run a lot better if peple had fewer mixed feelings.

 

 

This is SO funny.

[Capt_Uhura]

Aubrey, my dd9 is taking a practice test from a test prep book. She wrote this today in response to: Write a paragraph about something you have mixed feeling about.

 

I don't have mixed feelings about anything. I can't have mixed feelings because I am stuborn and precise. The world would run a lot better if peple had fewer mixed feelings.

 

 

 

Absolutely brilliant! I LOVE IT! Love it! What spirit!

[Capt_Uhura]

We're half way through WWE3, about week 17. DC gives a narration and you write it down. DC can't look at it. You then read the dictation back to DC 2x and he writes it down. I think it says 1-2 sentences of about 18words. I often just do his entire narration. But by going over it orally and forming his thoughts, he can then focus on the mechanics when he writes it down. I think in WWE4, they just write their entire narration down.

 

Here's a longer dictation from week 32 of WWE3.

 

Before the little fish swam away, it lifted its heard out of the water and said, "I know what your wish is, and it shall be fulfilled, in return for your kindness to me. You will soon have a daughter."

 

I hope that gives you a good idea of the difficulty level of WWE (And that SWB isn't made at me for typing up 3 of the dictations). You have 1 dictation each week. One day is just a narration. The other two days are narrations and DC writes his narration down.

[Colleen in NS]

But the overwhelmingness (I know that's not a word) of finding the stuff to dictate/copy reminds me of the yr we started hs'ing. I spent HOURS working on copy work for him & then didn't really use it.

 

But I *hate* putting anything together myself.

 

The WWE instructor text will tell you exactly how to find appropriate dictations, each step of the way. Or, if you want *everything* laid out, get the workbooks. You do NOT need to spend hours finding material to use for dictations! :)

 

I had reservations, but...went w/ it anyway. :001_huh:

 

I used to go with things like this, but then discovered that while my child might enjoy this particular poem or passage, *writing* that passage from dictation would be too hard because it was too long, or the words were too hard to spell, or there were too many pauses to keep track of, or there were too many big words. It *is* overwhelming and it ruins their enjoyment of that passage. So I took control and I now find passages that fit my WWE guidelines or thereabouts, and use those instead. They are much simpler.

 

I'm still with 8FilltheHeart - focused teaching is key for me, too. Maybe try to figure out what your specific goals are in teaching writing? A couple of years ago, I was floating through a fog, not really understanding where I was supposed to be going with all this narration and dictation, and eventually outlining/rewriting, and I couldn't see the connection with persuasive writing. It really helped me to hear SWB's writing lectures - they helped me to connect everything in my brain. So now I know what to do and when with each of my children, I know how to help them through rough spots (dictation, some days!), and I know that when dd9 gets inspired to write a story or a poem or something for fun, not to go editing it with her, unless she asks. And I know how to help ds if he gets lost. The other day, I had a little chat with him about a biography he'd read. Asked comprehension questions from WTM. Then I told him to go write a narration about it, and he started whining, "I hate writing biography narrations!" I had him start anyway. Partway through, I checked and he was writing many details about the person's life....more than I expected, and he was getting bogged down. I finally realized that he was trying to answer, on paper, every single question I'd asked him. So I had to explain to him, "No, you don't have to do that. Just talk in general about his childhood, his schooling, his aspirations, his accomplishments. 5-7 sentences or so." He understood that, because he had practiced narrations of shorter pieces for years now, and my sentence number specification helped him, too.

[Rosy]

I have a DD who just finished 3rd grade. We've been doing CW Aesop for a little over a year (not terribly consistently, and I let her do the CW "method" on other stories/fables, esp if they're in our SOTW unit). I would say her writing is comparable to the samples you shared, her spelling might be a little better and she might have fewer capitalization/punctuation errors, but she definitely still has them. Especially if she's not going off of a model.

 

Anyway, I love CW for her. I've found that using a model gives her structure and focus and makes it easier for her to concentrate on the mechanics of writing. She is also developing a voice. She does her first draft, we edit together (usually I edit and show her what I'm correcting as I do it--she has a hard time seeing her mistakes), and then she does the final draft. Her final drafts aren't usually perfect either, a lot of the time she'll tweak it after we edit and her tweaks are misspelled.:glare: I don't worry about it though. She gets grammar through FLL and spelling with MCP and Wordly Wise, so I figure she's getting the instruction she needs and it will show in her writing as she gets older.

 

Most of the writing she has done is paraphrasing what she's just read or heard. She almost never writes her own thoughts, unless it's not schoolwork (and she will write on her own sometimes). This is interesting, though--recently she had to write a report on geysers for our virtual school as part of our field trip to Yellowstone. I had to explain to her how to write a report, she'd written some simple book reports before but that was it. It took me 5 minutes to explain the concept of topic sentences and supporting sentences, I helped her outline the info she wanted to cover, and we decided she could call her report "Recipe for a Geyser" and discuss the 5 key ingredients geysers need. Then it took her 5 min. to actually write the thing, we did a quick edit and she rewrote in no time. All that to say SWB is right--kids don't need to be taught how to write nearly as much as they need to be taught correct grammar and have their brains filled with things to write about. The skills come as they get comfortable with the mechanics and their minds mature enough to come up with a logical flow of thought. JMHO. :)