Oldest daughter and math (again)!

[Michelle in MO]

OK, this morning I sat down to correct both girls' math work from yesterday. Oldest is doing Chalkdust Geometry, and the middle daughter is doing Lial's Intro. Algebra.

 

My oldest, who always loves to take shortcuts, had a couple of problems in which she was given three points of a triangle and drew a graph of the three points. One was an isoceles triangle, and the second was an equilateral triangle. She drew the points, looked at the triangles, and decided, "Yep! The first one looks like an isoceles, and the second looks like an equilateral." So, correct answer---but no supporting math work.

 

I'm so frustrated with this! I sat down before everyone went to church (I'm sorry---I skipped today because I have to study for my GRE test tomorrow) and went over the distance formula again with her to figure out the distance between two points.

 

We did the first two out of three segments distances on the first (isoceles) triangle, and of course, she has to figure out the third, using the distance formula.

 

I've seen this pattern of laziness in her often enough that I feel like I must take some corrective measures with it. She knows the distance formula (or can look it up, if that's fuzzy) and knows she's supposed to figure these problems out algebraically or geometrically, depending on the situation (this would be a combination of the two). I'm considering having her do an extra problem or two of the same type if I continue to see this pattern of "guessing" instead of figuring things out.

 

Any other suggestions or ideas? I know she can do better! She did not do well in Algebra II last year and I could not, in all honesty, give her a passing grade, although she did do well in Algebra I. So, on her transcript, I was just going to put that she passed Algebra I, without hopefully having to put the year, and then Geometry, and was going to have her do Algebra II next year.

 

However, what do I do if she fails geometry? She's quite capable of doing this level of math, but this lazy streak is really going to do her in if it doesn't change! Do high schools offer remedial geometry courses in the summer? I know the cc offers Algebra I and II, but I don't think colleges do geometry.

 

Sigh. This is a bright kid who can work hard at times, but has relied too long on natural intelligence and not enough on simple "perspiration" and hard work to get herself through.

[Veronica in VA]

Our local high school offers both a regular geometry program, and a remedial one. The remedial course is offered over 2 block semesters, so it goes quite a bit slower than the usual class. I have heard other schools sometimes offer the same thing.

 

I have a friend whose daughter dawdled quite a bit, and didn't come close to finishing Chalkdust geometry. She is on the 2 year plan for geometry, which she isn't really happy about, since she is a junior, but hopefully the girl learned her lesson.

 

Veronica

[Jane in NC]

Michelle,

 

Is this problem exhibited in Geometry alone or do you think that she is cutting corners in her other subjects as well?

 

One of my friends in grad school did poorly in high school math because he was bored out of his mind. He had thought that he would major in violin performance so he never applied himself in math. After freaking out in an important audition and never overcoming this failure, he began his college career with an open mind and no intended major. He discovered mathematics. And he was very good at it.

 

The moral of the story is that some who appear to be lazy are just bored! Instead of the computational stuff, how is she doing with proofs?

 

Jane

[Beth in SW WA]

Slight hijack here -- and possibly opening Pandora's Box....

 

How much Geometry is necessary for success on SAT's (which is all I really care about at this point)? Do my dc need the rigor of Chalkdust if they have no plan to go into a math-related field?

 

I know Charon will cringe at these questions :)

 

Thanks!!

 

And Michelle, I hope you find some answers to help w/ your current predicament.

[Janet in WA]

However, what do I do if she fails geometry? She's quite capable of doing this level of math, but this lazy streak is really going to do her in if it doesn't change!

My question would be, what will she do if she fails geometry? Will she care? Did she care that she failed Algebra II? I'm asking this question because I'd like to give you suggestions that would make her care, and if failing the course would do that, then that might be your solution (I'm thinking not, though).

 

Do high schools offer remedial geometry courses in the summer? I know the cc offers Algebra I and II, but I don't think colleges do geometry.

 

Do you mean you are thinking of having her take geometry at the high school? That might be one way to make her care -- working for someone else. Not necessarily, but possibly.

[Chris in VA]

Beth, it's my understanding that very little geometry is on the SAT--I've heard that it has much more Algebra 2 and trig now.

But please do a Princeton Review book on SAT prep--there are so many tricks used by ETS that it's really not a fair assessment of what your child knows of math.

[Jane in NC]

Slight hijack here -- and possibly opening Pandora's Box....

 

How much Geometry is necessary for success on SAT's (which is all I really care about at this point)? Do my dc need the rigor of Chalkdust if they have no plan to go into a math-related field?

 

I know Charon will cringe at these questions :)

 

But I'll cringe for him, Beth.

 

The obvious geometry problems on the SAT/ACT are computational things that one often encounters in Algebra; however, the benefit of geometry may be more subtle than that. Remember that the SAT is supposedly an aptitude test and the ACT is supposedly knowledge based. I say "supposedly" because there are also those who feel the tests simply measure whether one is a good test taker or not! Anyway, the comments that I have heard on the latest version of the SAT is that one can be coached on the mathematical content, while the verbal portion demonstrates a lifetime of quality reading and the development of reasoning skills. Students need to connect the dots between apparently disparate ideas.

 

How does one learn to think? Maybe that is the ultimate question.

 

The argument for a rigorous geometry course (axiomatic, proof based) has often been one surrounding the need for mental discipline. (The same argument can be made for Latin and logic.) Learning to deduce and write a succinct argument is a good skill, whether we learn this in geometry or logic. Learning to fret over details is a good skill. Learning what mathematics is and how the discipline works is not taught in most high school courses, but a glimpse is given in a good geometry course. We've been over these arguments many times on this board. So, ultimately, why should we study geometry? Because we can.

 

Shakespeare does not appear on the SAT, but that does not deter us from reading the bard.

 

Jane (who would love to invite Beth in SW WA to a WTM coffee klatch)

[Maverick]

Hi Beth:seeya:

 

I teach SAT & ACT prep at Sylvan Learning Center so I'll speak to your question. There is a fair amount of geometry on the SAT, but the problems are not all that much like what your kid will do in a geometry text. He needs to recognize geometric shapes, be able to find volumes, areas and perimeters, know angle relationships (vertical angles, degrees in a triangle), properties of circles (area, circumferemce, ratios of arcs, etc), parallel lines, pythagorean theorem and special right triangles, etc. Many of the problems combine algebra and geometry, so, for example, you have to use the formula for area of a rectangle to set up an equation, and then solve it algebraically. The basic formulas are provided so memorizing them is not necessary, but it sure helps. I will second Chis' suggestion to use a prep book (or two!) before testing, and also agree with what Jane says about mathematical thinking. She hits the nail on the head, in my opinion, with her thoughts about the tests. Can I come have coffee with you guys?? :001_smile:

[Jane in NC]

Can I come have coffee with you guys?? :001_smile:

 

I'm on one coast and you two are on the opposite. Maybe Michelle in MO will invite us all over if she is our geographic midpoint? ;)

[Michelle in MO]

First of all, without being too critical of my oldest, I think she's gotten by for a long time on being "bright"---not necessarily genius, mind you, but does well in school and does so with relative ease.

 

There is a limit to everyone's intelligence, though, and at some point in time everyone bumps into the limits of their intelligence. Even Einstein did with the intrusion of quantum physics into the spectrum of his theories of relativity! He really disliked quantum physics and couldn't figure out how the random behavior of subatomic particles could coincide with current theories of physics.

 

So, to answer Jane's question, yes, I've seen this pattern in her before. I see it in little things, like when she does great on a chemistry test but doesn't want bother with the notations like moles/grams degrees Celsius (or whatever). She still gets the right answer, and does the math right, but this bookkeeping, if she were to continue on in chemistry, would trip her up at some point in time.

 

It's the same with the notetaking I require for Omnibus II. We had a long battle over the proper taking of notes, until her father spoke with her. Since then she's been more compliant. My notes are not voluminous, and we do the discussion first, but then I summarize---very succinctly---the points on the whiteboard. She didn't want to bother with the reference to the book, (i.e., Inferno, Canto XXIV, lines 63-82).

 

So---I actually see several patterns here: a "lazy" tendency on her part, plus an incomprehensibly stubborn attitude towards some schoolwork---"guessing" in math rather than figuring things out (and believe me, I don't let her get by without showing the supporting math work!), one-liner note taking, and not bothering to write down the units in the proportional equations for chemistry. She's also trying to strike out for her own independence---which I understand (in theory) but am maybe having a hard time dealing with the ramifications of that independent streak (i.e., she might fail a subject).

 

Also, I see my own tendency to want to "save" her---so in some subjects, for instance, if she goes to the h.s. or community college next year---she will encounter what I've been warning her about all along. I do realize she ultimately must pay some consequences if she's going to be sloppy about her work.

 

As far as what Janet suggested, I wholeheartedly agree---she will do math next year under someone else's tutelage---either at the h.s. or else at the cc--because I think someone else can teach it better than I can, and also I hope this will help curb that stubborn streak.

 

As far as the proofs, Jane---no, she doesn't like doing them, and tends to avoid them---but again, I send her back to the desk to work them out, and work them out properly. That's one thing I'm very grateful for in the Larson text---they do have proofs.

 

What happened last year with Algebra II was not laziness on her part, however, but simply tackling Algebra II too soon. She did Algebra I as an 8th grader, and then I put her into Algebra II in 9th grade, not understanding the upper-level math sequence well enough. She did fine for the first four chapters, which were essentially a review of Algebra I, but then really struggled for the rest of the year. That was my mistake. The material was simply way too difficult for her---many students don't tackle Algebra II until 11th grade, and that probably would have been a better sequence for her. I think her brain simply wasn't ready for the difficulty of the material in Algebra II.

 

This may help to answer Beth in WA's question about geometry. I'm certainly no math expert, but I do think geometry is essential in high school. I'm not certain about its usage on the SAT's, but I do know that the PSAT's definitely test some geometry. If you want your child do take the PSAT, which could qualify them for a National Merit scholarship, or possibly be a National Merit commended scholar, I would think geometry in about 10th grade would be helpful. I wish I had sandwiched geometry in last year, and had her do Algebra II this year. Another good reason for tackling geometry in between Algebra I and II is that it seems both geometry texts that I have start to introduce some principles of trig., like sine, cosine, and tangent. I think giving the student some introduction into those principles before they tackle Algebra II and Trig., or Trig. and Precalculus (depending on how the texts are labeled) I think would be helpful.

 

I also feel, overall, that she struggles somewhat with math, but would do better if she had a real, geniune math teacher, instead of her mother, who is always scrabbling with having to listen to the DVD's for geometry and re-reading the chapter with algebra. For the most part I can help them, but I don't have that definitive grasp of the subject that a real mathematician would have.

 

Thanks for all your suggestions!

[Michelle in MO]

I'm on one coast and you two are on the opposite. Maybe Michelle in MO will invite us all over if she is our geographic midpoint? ;)

 

love to have coffee with you all! (Or, as we used to say in Minnesota, "youse guys", said with a Swedish intonation!)

 

Let me know when!

[Janet in WA]

 

There is a limit to everyone's intelligence, though, and at some point in time everyone bumps into the limits of their intelligence.

My middle ds learned this when he took his first math course at the cc (dual enrollment). The first few weeks of the class were too easy for him. His resulting over-confidence in class didn't escape his instructor. The instructor warned my son that he'd seen this before, and it could lead to failure when the class eventually hit something new for the student and he'd suddenly need to tune in and take the lecture and homework seriously. My son didn't believe it, but sure enough, the instructor was right. The advice didn't get my son's attention until he eventually failed a test (about half way through the quarter).

[Jane in NC]

Dear Michelle,

 

(Gently.) Could you be worrying too much about your daughter's math given that you are taking the GRE tomorrow, a sort of transfer of nervous energy? I'm confident that your WTM support group will join me in a group hug. :grouphug:

 

By the way much of what you describe I could also write about my own son. He formerly had an almost photographic memory (before the mega hormonal thing began happening). I think that this is why AP Bio has been a rude awakening.

 

Learning to take notes and study is a challenge for many students. Breakthroughs do not occur overnight. My son's depth of thinking in mathematics today is radically different than it was a year ago. I asked him what he learned in geometry. Shrug. "What did you like best?" "I didn't like much of it." "Proofs?" "Not at all." "Constructions?" "What's that?" So much for geometry.

 

Yet as I read through the arguments he is now producing in trigonometry and I know that he learned more than he is willing to admit.

 

Let me also note that there is a sea of confusion out there concerning when we do what. He is currently filling out an application for a competitive camp scholarship and was wondering how to squeeze his complete sentences in the few lines on the form (applicants must answer in the space provided). I suggested that he list things. "Not write complete sentences?" Use a standard essay form for the upcoming ACT, but don't repeat the question on the AP Bio test essay questions. Use complete sentences when answering questions on school subjects; use bullets on this form. Are we all getting too hung up on formats and not content?

 

Michelle, this thread is getting away from the original question. Sorry about that.

 

Best of luck tomorrow on the GRE.

Jane

[Michelle in MO]

(Gently.) Could you be worrying too much about your daughter's math given that you are taking the GRE tomorrow, a sort of transfer of nervous energy? I'm confident that your WTM support group will join me in a group hug. :grouphug:

 

Best of luck tomorrow on the GRE.

Jane

 

I'm also concerned that I might be missing signs of failure, like I did last year. Really, I should have had her drop Alg. II mid-year and given her a break, and then started geometry. Instead, my husband and I kept thinking, "Well, we just need to keep working harder." So, we hired a tutor, etc. etc., but she still struggled mightily and we finally were forced to allow her to drop it. I just hope we don't go through the same experience this year.

 

Well, I've taken two practice tests today---did fine on the first one, and just OK on the second. I'm going to take the girls to a movie to rest my frazzled brain, and hopefully wake up bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. I hope I do well on the essays!

[Beth in SW WA]

Thank you for your responses to my questions. Yes, coffee! My treat :)