Your wisdom on high school direction

[johnandtinagilbert]

I really want to focus on strengths during high school so we can best prepare for college, at least I think, I do.:confused:

 

One of my children will begin 9th grade next year. He is math strong and proficient elsewhere. I'll try to describe him so you can share your wisdom well. I thank you so much for reading this and giving me some ideas.

 

To get ready for high school: We're improving reading speed this year and will continue to do so; and we're hitting his weak spots in writing. I expect him to be prepared by August in both these areas.

 

Mostly, he's a bit lazy these days, so he's making B's instead of A's in "language arts." He thinks science is okay, but b/c he doesn't love to read, he doesn't love science, save hands on times.

 

In history, he hates all the reading, even though he enjoys the content, and is doing well with discussions. He'd have an A here if he wasn't late on several things. He lost points and has a B average.

 

Latin and spanish are coming along steadily.

 

Loves Algebra. Has completed MUS Alg 1 and half of Dolciani Algebra and has a high average. He even helps his sister with her Pre-Algebra and will probably serve as her tutor for Algebra this coming year.

 

Anyways, I don't want to paint him too well or poorly. He's lazy. We struggle with deadlines, which is why we're working hard on daily meetings and accountability. He's smart and capable, just not very motivated. This is where the specific direction of high school may make the difference. Does that make sense? Or am I dreaming?

 

We use TOG, WriteShop, Noeo Chem (switching to WTM Physics soon), MUS/Dolciani (switching to Chalkdust for Alg 2)

 

So, I wonder about two directions:

1. Focus on math now, but worry he won't be strong enough elsewhere to survive general college classes, before getting to specialization.

 

2. Continue on General Studies course and struggle with motivation?

 

3. Other options????

 

HELP! I think I'm having one of those over thinking times Nan mentioned in another thread...I didn't sleep for days when I read about all the tests to be ready for (SAT, etc.). I had to run away from the high school boards and get through some 8th grade!

 

TIA, TIA, TIA

[Kim in Appalachia]

my goal was to prepare her for taking courses at the local college. She will be doing that next year (11th grade). She can take 2 courses a semester. My dd has a good attitude with school work, but is horrible with studing, and lacks the motivation to push hard. She is the kind of kid who wants to do well, but can't seem to muster herself to do the work. :tongue_smilie:

 

Because of her weakness is in getting everything done well, and doing well on tests we went with BJ this year. We use the DVD program. It has been very good. She can see where she needs to work harder. The material is not the most exciting but it is solid, which was important to me. The daily classes (on video) have been good for disipline. She gets to all of it everyday, no matter how chaotic it gets with the rest of the family.

[Faithr]

In my experience kids go through a slump period when they are busy growing. However, when did making B's mean you are lazy!!!! Especially in fields that aren't your strengths or passions. That's not lazy in my book. That's doing very well! Anyway, he has 3 or 4 years before he is going to start taking college course right? There is such an amazing different between a 14 yo teen and a 17 yo old one. They change completely! So I do think you are overthinking things probably just from being nervous because you haven't done this before. It is good to focus on weaknesses to get him up to speed but then again, he has time before he needs to be at college level for stuff. Some kids are late bloomers and don't hit their stride til later. I would try not to fret and also not to be judgemental because he isn't perfect at every subject. He really, truly sounds like he is doing great.

[Rebecca VA]

Tina, I love reading your posts! You are *so* in the same trenches I'm in! I was thinking this morning about my own 7th grader, who is doing well enough academically but is not at all motivated. She hates to read. She's resisting me on many fronts, doing just enough to get by but no more, etc.

 

I have a gut feeling that this isn't the time to push her to heights of achievement. She's a hormonal mess these days. She can't even remember to brush her hair and put on her coat. I'm easing up on her a lot, letting her drop piano (right before three festivals and competitions) and slowing her way down in algebra. She *could* do more and better work if I were to stay on top of her and push, but I'm not going to do that, not now.

 

I still expect her to turn in good-quality work to me -- I haven't eased up there -- but I'm easing up on the speed with which we go through our subjects and the number of subjects. I'd rather have her work at grade level enthusiastically and independently than above grade level reluctantly. She will still get into a good college. (Did you read The Overachievers, in which the high school seniors and their parents were turning themselves inside out to get into the "best" colleges, and and they just ended up...where they ended up? And they were fine with it?)

 

I wrote a post last weekend about my 18-year-old who was completely unmotivated for many years. He was homeschooled (sort of) through his first year of high school, and then in desperation we sent him to a classical Christian school. At some point he matured and has really been doing well (details in that post, but he's a freshman at Patrick Henry College and he's in the cover story of Business Week magazine this week!). I think -- again, it's a gut feeling -- that his little sister is going to eventually come out just as well, if I don't crush her with too-high expectations at a very delicate time.

[johnandtinagilbert]

In my experience kids go through a slump period when they are busy growing. However, when did making B's mean you are lazy!!!! Especially in fields that aren't your strengths or passions. That's not lazy in my book. That's doing very well! Anyway, he has 3 or 4 years before he is going to start taking college course right? There is such an amazing different between a 14 yo teen and a 17 yo old one. They change completely! So I do think you are overthinking things probably just from being nervous because you haven't done this before. It is good to focus on weaknesses to get him up to speed but then again, he has time before he needs to be at college level for stuff. Some kids are late bloomers and don't hit their stride til later. I would try not to fret and also not to be judgemental because he isn't perfect at every subject. He really, truly sounds like he is doing great.

Thank you. I need to relax, I know. He is excelling in many areas, and I admit I am hard on him. I just hate watching someone not living up to their potential. He really could do better. I don't expect him to be better than he is, I just hope he'll live to be the best he can be.

 

We actually plan on taking one course, via dual enrollment, in 10th grade to give him a taste, so I have a year and a half according to plan. I am, however, willing to wait to enroll him as long as necessary. I won't set him up for failure. I just hope he's ready b/c I get a lot of free college where I live and that really can help!

 

His B's really are lazy. Low B's for tardiness and simply deciding to stare out the window or "forget" he needed to do something and flip on the tv.

 

You make a great point on growing, though. I'm glad to hear he's not alone in this season of growth and turtlelike activity ;)

 

I was hoping that focusing on strengths would be inspiring to me, too. Thank you!

[johnandtinagilbert]

Tina, I love reading your posts! You are *so* in the same trenches I'm in! I was thinking this morning about my own 7th grader, who is doing well enough academically but is not at all motivated. She hates to read. She's resisting me on many fronts, doing just enough to get by but no more, etc.

 

I have a gut feeling that this isn't the time to push her to heights of achievement. She's a hormonal mess these days. She can't even remember to brush her hair and put on her coat. I'm easing up on her a lot, letting her drop piano (right before three festivals and competitions) and slowing her way down in algebra. She *could* do more and better work if I were to stay on top of her and push, but I'm not going to do that, not now.

 

I still expect her to turn in good-quality work to me -- I haven't eased up there -- but I'm easing up on the speed with which we go through our subjects and the number of subjects. I'd rather have her work at grade level enthusiastically and independently than above grade level reluctantly. She will still get into a good college. (Did you read The Overachievers, in which the high school seniors and their parents were turning themselves inside out to get into the "best" colleges, and and they just ended up...where they ended up? And they were fine with it?)

 

I wrote a post last weekend about my 18-year-old who was completely unmotivated for many years. He was homeschooled (sort of) through his first year of high school, and then in desperation we sent him to a classical Christian school. At some point he matured and has really been doing well (details in that post, but he's a freshman at Patrick Henry College and he's in the cover story of Business Week magazine this week!). I think -- again, it's a gut feeling -- that his little sister is going to eventually come out just as well, if I don't crush her with too-high expectations at a very delicate time.

First, thank you. I'm glad someone is glad to hear me...and that I'm not alone. :grouphug:

Why is it my heart, head and will just can't line up!?! I let him drop 2 non-essentials last week (typing and journaling). I stretched out our history schedule from two to three weeks starting in Dec. so he could have more time to spread out his work. I dropped music and art until we finish a few small projects. I switched out science plans from Apologia to Noeo b/c it seems more to his liking. I'm trying...sniff, sniff.

 

When I look at ALL the things we do still, I know it's a heavy courseload, but I'm paralyzed with fear that I'll leave something out and he won't be prepared for college. I kinda feel like a *victim* of my parents' lack of activity in my education and I just can't miss a thing.

 

:nopity:I know, poor me!

[Guest]

Everybody has good comments about developmental schedules and changes. But I'm also wondering: if he hates reading, why not ease up on it and let him learn the material in some other form? There's so much good history material available on DVD (libraries); there are re-enactment societies; there's on-line learning, which some visual learners prefer to straight text. Why not give some other form a go and see if anything changes? You say he enjoys the content, so maybe experiment with the means of getting at it?

 

Same with science. Yes, some reading is necessary. But SWB has really shifted direction in the latest edition of her book and emphasizes hands-on learning, experiments, kits, and exploration in the middle school years. Why not capitalize on this for the remainder of 8th grade? Also explore different reading material: if not a textbook, maybe a science magazine? There are all kids of popular science magazines for adults with short articles; there's also Muse magazine for young teens, Discover, etc. Browse the science section of magazines at the bookstore and see what you uncover and whether anything attracts him.

 

There are potential payoffs not only for your child, but for you -- and your relationship. If he finds a mode of learning that is more congenial for him, he will be more able to work independently and won't need you (as much) to have your role reduced to that of taskmaster standing over him.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Everybody has good comments about developmental schedules and changes. But I'm also wondering: if he hates reading, why not ease up on it and let him learn the material in some other form? There's so much good history material available on DVD (libraries); there are re-enactment societies; there's on-line learning, which some visual learners prefer to straight text. Why not give some other form a go and see if anything changes? You say he enjoys the content, so maybe experiment with the means of getting at it?

 

Same with science. Yes, some reading is necessary. But SWB has really shifted direction in the latest edition of her book and emphasizes hands-on learning, experiments, kits, and exploration in the middle school years. Why not capitalize on this for the remainder of 8th grade? Also explore different reading material: if not a textbook, maybe a science magazine? There are all kids of popular science magazines for adults with short articles; there's also Muse magazine for young teens, Discover, etc. Browse the science section of magazines at the bookstore and see what you uncover and whether anything attracts him.

 

There are potential payoffs not only for your child, but for you -- and your relationship. If he finds a mode of learning that is more congenial for him, he will be more able to work independently and won't need you (as much) to have your role reduced to that of taskmaster standing over him.

You bring up great points. I've been going in circles in my mind about this, too. I am taking that Hands on approach in our science studies by crossing over to WTM Physics, and including a Thames and Kosmos experiment set, as sadly Rainbow Science is out of my budget.

 

Here's where I always end up when I have this conversation in my head.....okay, so he learns visually now, less reading, more computer, etc., all the things you suggested....then he goes to college where everything is in text form. Is he then, please pardon my foul tongue, but is he then screwed? I'd really appreciate your thoughts on this. I'm not being snarky, I really ask myself that question.

[Nan in Mass]

You might want to look at this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1425782#poststop

 

RoughCollie had a similar problem and she thinks she has found a way to solve it, which she posts about here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149484&highlight=solution

 

I faced a similar problem and I chose to tailor things to my child until his academic skills kicked in (around 16). I tried as best I could to gently and consistently niggle away at study and organizational skills in the meantime, and each year we worked on textbook learning using one subject. I let him do a lot of the things he was interested in, and I tried to do the subjects he wasn't interested in as painlessly and efficiently as possible. The situation looked so hopeless that I more or less decided to let him be bad at some things and concentrate on helping him be very good at the things that he was already good at. I didn't totally abandon other things, but I did tailor lots. It was scary taking this route, but it all worked out ok. My only regret is that I didn't have RoughCollie's book to help me to work on those organizational skills more effectively. We did CC classes, beginning with some easy ones. My son learned college survival skills then, with me guiding and helping. The first notes he ever took were during those first CC classes. It probably isn't the ideal way to do it, but it worked. My son is in college now and doing fine. Well, he flunked calc the first semester, but that had more to do with the other things he was trying to balance than with his study skills.

 

HTH

-Nan

[MamaT]

I agree with Faithr. My oldest three boys were the same way at 14. There is such a difference in a 14yo and even a 16yo. My 16yo, who was lazy, didn't really care if he finished on time, hated to read, etc. has read Sophocles, Aristotle, Homer, and other ancient writers this year and has really gotten into it. He even finished early a few times because he didn't want to stop reading. He is managing his own schedule well and finishing his work on time (finally).

[Guest]

Maybe you will find it reassuring when you investigate how much college work now takes place via the internet or in other forums. Many teachers recognize that many kids today learn visually due to the intense visual culture that surrounds us, so they incorporate more visual aids, videos, etc. into coursework -- assuming, that is, you're not talking about a "Great Books" college. I taught literature at the University of California for a number of years, and along with conventional paper topics for end-of-term projects I offered alternatives like comparing two versions of Jane Austen movies with her books, discussing what historical elements get left out or changed when the movies go Hollywood (or even BBC). If your child is math/science-oriented, other forms of material for learning will be even more the case. One thing you may find is that you become interested in finding out how particular colleges approach visual learners -- there are books that talk about how textbook/reading/writing focused various colleges are. I think the title of one book I have (but can't find at the moment) is "Colleges That Change Lives." Many, many universities are now working with the fact that kids learn in different ways and are interested in their strengths and styles; this is incorporated into how classes are set up.

 

I don't mean to be glib or overly optimistic; verbal and text-based learning are still some of the major pathways in higher education. But they are increasingly not the only ones.

 

Also, there's still time for your son to develop stronger reading skills (although that may never be his preferred mode of learning). My daughter too is in eighth grade, and I've seen absolutely astounding leaps in her abilities that seemingly occur in the dark and overnight. I was used to thinking of a child's major development happening at much earlier ages, but I've seen her improve even in spelling as she moves into adolescence -- also abstract comprehension. Again, I don't want to seem like I'm making it all too easy; but amazing growth does happen at all ages, and eighth grade is still relatively young, academically.

 

Does this help at all???

[Faithr]

No he isn't screwed! Because he'll be older and it'll be his choice to work. He'll adapt accordingly, if he's allowed to blossom on his own. You have to give as much freedom as possible to him as he gets older. You have to let him own his education. The thing is you can't live vicariously through him. You can try to give him a better education than you got yourself. But you can't overload him and burn him out in a quest to give him the perfect education. It is about his life and education NOT yours. I think this is a mistake many homeschool moms make and they wind up butting heads terribly and alienating their kids. I know that I kept wanting to do this and I kept having to discipline myself to hold back. When I held back and let my older kids make their own decisions (within reason of course) they always wound up doing very well, even if it wasn't exactly the education I had planned for them. But if you give him freedom, he'll grow his own ambition and then he won't be lazy because it'll be the thing HE wants to achieve. But there is a huge difference between an 8th grader an a high school senior. Maturity is a major factor when it comes to ambition and self-discipline. You probably can't see it now but it is true.

 

Also, I wouldn't push him into college during his high school years unless he is ready or it is his idea. Going in 10th grade is young. My kids have gone in their 12th grade and that is soon enough for me. Around here the community college is pretty good but there is a huge variety of folks who go and the other students are not necessarily the kind of influence you want on your son at that tender age. My word of advice is don't let anxiety rule your decision making, prudence, yes, anxiety no. It seems like a big scary deal when you are first looking at homeschooling high school, but just take baby steps. The biggest thing is to stay close to your son. And as he gets older, let him take the reigns of his education.

 

Okay, sorry to be so full of advice and all. Forgive me if I sound preachy. I don't mean to.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Well, I thank you all for your wisdom and encouragement. I feel a little calmer today, after a good nights sleep and some basic begging before the Lord. I've read all the posts, links to other threads, and ordered the Crumpled Paper book. I have to wait for it b/c all the copies are currently out, which somehow comforts me again b/c I'm not the only person in Pinellas County dealing with this either. So sad how misery loves company (snickering).

 

I have decided to drop one more subject area, I hope only temporarily, but we'll see about that. Spanish is out for this guy. He'll continue with Latin, which will cover his two year foreign language requirements and satisfy my need to give that extra boost in vocabulary roots for sciences and standardized testing.

 

I think the theme that is sticking with me is continue in patience, he'll grow out of it and continue giving the tools necessary for success. That's always been very difficult between the eldest and I. Poor kid. First born begats the err of Momma's ways. I am so much more relaxed with number five. I need to keep reminding myself to remember neither one of us has done this before, so I need to offer him some grace too.

 

Poor teenage kid has a Mom living out her educational failings through him. I thank you sincerely for pointing that out. It isn't about me, it's about his best interests. Now, if only he could at least respect I do have a little more insight than he. In fact, I think he does respect that, but is walking on that fence, losing balance even with his arms T'd out, and wondering what's on the other side. I know the answer, independence -- whole independence. I want him there academically, but not anywhere else. Selfish Momma wants to keep her babies forever.

 

I can't tell you the grateful heart I have for all of your responses. I truly appreciate the wisdom here and welcome anymore offered. I'll be checking back and let you know how the book goes for me. I think I'm going to try and find some visual sources for our history. That may really help, too. A lighter reading load, at least for now. Hopefully, his speed reading course will really kick in soon and it won't be such a big deal next year. Fingers crossed.

 

Thank you again!

[Nan in Mass]

First though, I want to say that I sympathize greatly. I think we all struggle with this. At least you didn't throw up your hands and say you couldn't homeschool high school with your first, the way I did. You are ahead of me by quite a bit. I'm still trying to figure it out with my third. I think the year or two before high school are some of the toughest on the mother because that is when you are forced to look at the child and look at high school and be realistic. Until then, you have more room for dreaming.

 

I think you might have the school/life/independence business backwards. I have found that for teenage boys under the age of 16 (when mine's academic skills kicked in), it works better to give them independence in their lives and not try for too much independence in the academic department. This is what they themselves want, so they are more cooperative. Skills like tidiness, scheduling, breaking a big project into steps, self discipline, keeping track of belongings, etc. all can apply to both life and school, so you can teach them in either realm. It builds the most confidence and seems the most useful to the children themselves if you can manage to let them apply the skills outside the home, when you aren't there. If you try to build the skills by teaching them to do the dishes, they know perfectly well that if they don't do them, you will have to before you can make the next meal, and they don't feel self-conscious about having you pick up the load if they drop it. Besides, doing dishes doesn't feel grownup because it is something done at home. They aren't worried about surviving at home. They figure they can do that in a pinch. What they want are skills for surviving (and playing - sigh) outside the home. Teaching skills like taking public transportation or using the laundromat (if you usually do laundry at home) may work better. Even something as simple as giving them your grocery list, dropping them at the store, and then picking them and the groceries up later can help. Or letting them wait for you at Dunkin Donuts while you shop. As they gain confidence with life-independence, it spills over into the academics.

 

Another thing I have had good luck with and you might find helpful is this: I pick one subject to sacrifice. I pick something that the child hates and say something like, "I notice you hate doing this. We can't skip it because the state says you have to do it, but we can probably get away with minimizing it. What could we do to make it less horrible? Perhaps we could ....? Do you think that might help?" It is amazing how a little control over one subject and a little sympathy from mum makes the rest of the subjects a little easier.

 

This might not work for you, but I have found it easier to work on a few subjects at a time. We do Latin and French, for instance, but we never do both heavily the same year. I do the bare minimum to maintain one while we work on the other. I think in terms of a schedule with time slots for the basics and then just a few other time slots, and I try to fill those others with the extras sequentially, rather than trying to do them all at once. This helps me to keep my enthusiasm or panic in check and not overwhelm my poor son.

 

Lots of sympathy,

Nan

[MommyThrice]

I'm in the same boat here - 14 yo lazy son. (And I have two younger boys!) Maybe more than lazy I would say he is unorganized. I can so relate to the way you feel. :grouphug:

 

I have two thoughts. First, I think 9th grade is a little too early to start specializing academically. We are just starting to realize that my sons strong areas are the humanities. Or, I could say his weakness is math. But, he is still young enough that it could change, so I don't want to drop anything yet. However, we do discuss it with him and let him know that the subjects he really struggles with will become less and less a part of his studies so that he can focus on his strengths. He has that to look forward to and also he is helping to decide what direction he wants to go. Right now he wants to be an attorney.

 

Second, I consider this a time in his life where he really needs to buckle-down and face his weaknesses. While he is not accomplishing all the school work I would like, I am insisting that everything he does complete is done WELL. We spend more time on how to take notes, how to organize his planner, how to file papers logically, how to organize an essay logically, how to motivate himself, etc... that we do on actual history or literature discussions. I really think he needs to take the time to learn step 1 before he moves on to step 2. My son will even admit that this is a self-control / laziness issue that he needs to conquer.

 

Have you seen How to be a Superstar Student from The Teaching Company? http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=140 We are going through that right now and it does seem to be helping. At least it is a man telling him the same things that I keep saying. It does goes on sale for $50-60.

 

Keep us posted on his progress... I could use the encouragement!

[johnandtinagilbert]

Nan,

Thank you. You make very good points. I need to encourage his "independence" in other ways. Part of my frustration is he does very well in Boy Scouts and the Outreach Center where he volunteers. I was very proud, yet secretly mad, when I received some exceptional commentary from 4 different adult members. I am so proud of him, and equally annoyed b/c I want him to behave like a little golden boy for his momma!

 

I think I may take your advice, though and change up which chores they do. Instead of dishes, maybe his own laundry is a good idea, particularly since it's so connected to *his* belongings. Yeah, I like that.

 

I think I may also lighten up his spanish load...may just drop it for now. He has twice commented that having Latin and Spanish at the same time is confusing him.

 

Thank you all so much for your tender and equally honest response.

 

I am looking at high school with trepidation, unlike the grammar and middle school years where I probably have too much confidence!

 

Thank you to the zilllionth power!

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'm in the same boat here - 14 yo lazy son. (And I have two younger boys!) Maybe more than lazy I would say he is unorganized. I can so relate to the way you feel. :grouphug:

 

I have two thoughts. First, I think 9th grade is a little too early to start specializing academically. We are just starting to realize that my sons strong areas are the humanities. Or, I could say his weakness is math. But, he is still young enough that it could change, so I don't want to drop anything yet. However, we do discuss it with him and let him know that the subjects he really struggles with will become less and less a part of his studies so that he can focus on his strengths. He has that to look forward to and also he is helping to decide what direction he wants to go. Right now he wants to be an attorney.

 

Second, I consider this a time in his life where he really needs to buckle-down and face his weaknesses. While he is not accomplishing all the school work I would like, I am insisting that everything he does complete is done WELL. We spend more time on how to take notes, how to organize his planner, how to file papers logically, how to organize an essay logically, how to motivate himself, etc... that we do on actual history or literature discussions. I really think he needs to take the time to learn step 1 before he moves on to step 2. My son will even admit that this is a self-control / laziness issue that he needs to conquer.

 

Have you seen How to be a Superstar Student from The Teaching Company? http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=140 We are going through that right now and it does seem to be helping. At least it is a man telling him the same things that I keep saying. It does goes on sale for $50-60.

 

Keep us posted on his progress... I could use the encouragement!

We have SuperStar Student. The one problem with the program is we don't use text books and I borrow from the library most of the time. We can't write in our stuff! I do plan on using this program, though, every summer to encourage us along.

 

Are you sure you don't have my son. He admits the same things! I just wish we could fast forward from admitting to acting!

Thank you.

[Joan in GE]

You might want to look at this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1425782#poststop

 

RoughCollie had a similar problem and she thinks she has found a way to solve it, which she posts about here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149484&highlight=solution

 

 

Thanks so much for posting this since I don't visit the General Board normally. But it describes my oldest; he is still struggling at 23. I'm hoping to get some ideas since it says help them 'succeed at life'.

 

Joan