Eat to Live-is it ever possible to convert die-hard meat-eaters?

[Joanne]

So I thought of using him as a guinea pig to reperesent the facts to him of the health consequences of ignoring the researchy. I suggested we both get our blood pressure, cholesterol (full) and glucose checked before and then after 6 months. The weight loss would likely be obvious, but we can check that and fat around the waist, as well. We need these tests for our own health knowledge anyway.

 

Lakota

 

I've personally known many people who do a low carb eating style whose numbers improved tremendously; not "just" weight but cholesterol, blood sugar, etc.

 

He's a grown man. Let him be that.

[lakotajm]

People need to change because they want to change, not because they are forced to.

 

Another thought... if you indeed switch the kids to exactly what you want them to eat and don't respect his views, you might be putting a wedge into your marriage. Food is not nearly as important as a good marriage IMO. I'd let the kids have foods BOTH parents enjoy and let them choose for themselves.

 

The kids see us as being in agreement on it all.

 

Some things are simply more important than health issues. Besides, I've read enough reports suggesting a vegan diet is rather unhealthy overall... and Atkins/South Beach folks tend to do rather well (not that we do either, but nutrition is NOT a "set in stone" science). QUOTE]

 

Well, here's the problem with such a laid-back view. It might be putting the kids at a higher risk for cancer later down the road. What they eat at around and just before puberty determines a lot more than we'd sometimes like to think. It would then be irresponsible of me to ignore that. Just like I don't figure it's okay if they have an occasional cigarette,or watch 10 hours straight of tv. And they are too young to make these choices for themselves (or most would choose jelly sandwiches and candy for each meal.) So while I would be ok with not changing his diet, being a grown man, I do not feel as set at ease with the same laissez-faire approach to feeding the kids.

 

Concerning vegans being unhealthy: one needs to remember that the definition merely means no animal products in one's diet. This would then include anyone who eats nothing but Fritos and Mountain Dew.

As far as Atkins and South Beach, they caused me to pass 3 kidney stones! I finally stopped eating meat more than once/week and completely stopped dairy (allergic), and I haven't passed one since.

 

Lakota

[Joanne]

Well, here's the problem with such a laid-back view. It might be putting the kids at a higher risk for cancer later down the road. What they eat at around and just before puberty determines a lot more than we'd sometimes like to think. It would then be irresponsible of me to ignore that. Just like I don't figure it's okay if they have an occasional cigarette,or watch 10 hours straight of tv. And they are too young to make these choices for themselves (or most would choose jelly sandwiches and candy for each meal.) So while I would be ok with not changing his diet, being a grown man, I do not feel as set at ease with the same laissez-faire approach to feeding the kids.

 

Concerning vegans being unhealthy: one needs to remember that the definition merely means no animal products in one's diet. This would then include anyone who eats nothing but Fritos and Mountain Dew.

As far as Atkins and South Beach, they caused me to pass 3 kidney stones! I finally stopped eating meat more than once/week and completely stopped dairy (allergic), and I haven't passed one since.

 

Lakota

 

Encouraging and even coercing children's diet is different than doing so with a spouse.

 

Do you believe in one diet style for all? I don't. I felt and acted bad on a "healthy" diet of whole grains, fruits and veggies. It didn't work for me.

 

Unlimited non starchy veggies and meat did, however.

[Spy Car]

Actually, quite a serious arguement, backed by much research, is available for just that.

 

I'm curious to know what research backs the idea that it's healthful to consume meat at every meal. Can you point me to it?

 

 

Yes, because if mine tried to lovingly encourage me to change to his idea of healthy (no matter what that may be), I'd be furious. I'd never recommend another adult engage with a peer or spouse in that way.

 

As I said, we will have to disagree about the roles of loving spouses. My concept is I look out for my wife, as I hope and expect she will look out for me.

 

Bill

[eternalknot]

I grew up veg*n, and my husband grew up the son and grandson of self-sufficient farmers (read: meat at every meal). Fortunately, he eats a fair amount of vegetables with his meat so it wasn't like trying to convert a pickier eater.

 

We abstained from animal products for spiritual reasons, not health. For that reason -- brainwashed or not -- I demanded respect for my decision to abstain, and to raise our children to abstain. "Respect" was subjective, and it did take time to reach a compromise we could both live with. I did not prepare animal products, and we segregated all utensils and related preparation/eating tools. I didn't comment when he chose to prepare his own meat, and serve it alongside my dinner (the important thing being meals together). I didn't comment to my children negatively about their dad's food choices; they were simply "different" than our own.

 

In your situation, I'd say that compromise is going to be the key - particularly if you've been a meat-eating home. It sounds like his hesitance is rooted in defense; that is, he is taking your view as a direct attack on his upbringing and his own choices. There's no real winning that one, so it's fruitless to try. Give up trying to get him onboard with your eating philosophies. Your goal is for a compromise both of you can live with.

 

To start, add a new naturally veg*n option to your weekly rotation: pasta primavera, lasagna, chips/salsa with bean burritos, veggie chili, soups, etc. Things that are familiar enough to him that they won't be perceived as overt "attacks" on his eating preferences but can serve as a gentle introduction to your own preferences. This is a compromise on his part.

 

Then, add a few "adaptable" dishes to your weekly rotation; dishes that can be easily adapted to each of your eating preferences. Ideas such as salads -- greens, veggies, nuts for yours and greens, veggies, grilled fish or chicken for his. Baked potatoes, his can have grilled poultry or bacon bits and yours can be without. Stirfries -- rice and veggies for you, his meat can be cooked on the side and added to his own. Et cetera. For this to be easier on the primary chef, all of his meat options can be pre-made weekly, and frozen or fridged for use throughout the week. Then they just need re-heating during meal prep. This is a compromise on your part.

 

But he is already unhappy with the fridge contents (said he, "you went grocery shopping and came back with nothing to eat?", though it was filled with cabbage, peppers, salad, carrots, broccoli, soy milk, bluberries, etc.)

 

 

What was he looking for - something to snack on, or just ... meat for a meal?

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by lakotajm

But he is already unhappy with the fridge contents (said he, "you went grocery shopping and came back with nothing to eat?", though it was filled with cabbage, peppers, salad, carrots, broccoli, soy milk, bluberries, etc.)

 

While I eat all those things (with the exception of the soy milk) I'd feel the same way as he did.:confused:

 

I'd *need*, quite literally, some nuts, yogurt, a turkey burger, eggs or steak with the above. Or I'd be a shaking, irritable, angry mess.

[creekland]

 

 

Concerning vegans being unhealthy: one needs to remember that the definition merely means no animal products in one's diet. This would then include anyone who eats nothing but Fritos and Mountain Dew.

As far as Atkins and South Beach, they caused me to pass 3 kidney stones! I finally stopped eating meat more than once/week and completely stopped dairy (allergic), and I haven't passed one since.

 

Lakota

 

While I agree that no one diet fits everyone's needs, I get my health info mostly from Nutrition Action - quite a good, no-ads accepted, little magazine. When they were comparing diets they certainly weren't using one that allowed Fritos and Mt Dew. They were reporting on University controlled diets. They look at studies both here and abroad, but only from reputable sources and are quick to point out those from unreputable sources.

 

A vegan diet does not appear to be the healthiest - regardless of what any book suggests. I prefer to go off of studies. They are still doing studies comparing Atkins/South Beach to low-fat to vegan, etc. To date, Atkins and South Beach are doing quite well - on all aspects - from weight to numbers. The magazine hasn't seen enough complete studies to switch their recommendation from low-fat, but they do not recommend vegan. They're still in the low-fat, low sugar, meat in moderation, with plenty of fruits and veggies camp.

 

We don't keep our magazines beyond use, but maybe if you google their website you can look up reports of studies comparing the diets. It'd be a far better source (if on the web site) than a biased book. If not, a subscription isn't much. I think we pay $20/year.

 

As for my family, we're not super strict on diet. While I try to generally go healthy and have made changes to reflect that (no white bread, few sugars, etc), I find that it's just not a big deal. No one in my family is on any sort of prescription drug or has any sort of medical issue. We very rarely have colds. We missed the swine flu - even when it was all around us. Hubby even had his check up recently (mid 40's) and was told he's in great shape - AND - he ate REALLY unhealthily all through his youth - about as unhealthily as exists (think Honey Buns and Pepsi coupled with salted meat daily).

 

While I don't want my boys raised with that sort of diet on a regular basis, partaking once in a while is VERY unlikely to hurt them - not even as much as one cigarette. Teaching them that their father is wrong, stupid, bull-headed, or any other sort of adjective would do far more lasting harm.

 

Even if Atkins and South Beach end up winning the diet wars (as they very likely might), we aren't likely to switch to them as I could never give up my potatoes and pasta... same as I could never give up my meat. We'll be staying in the middle and enjoying it all - in moderation.

[Impish]

Ah. So this is where the spin off came from.

Find one that doesn't use Inuit as an example and I'm all ears. :bigear:

 

Inuit people have been used as an example many times that a high fat & high protein diet can be healthy, because they don't have heart disease. It ignores other health issues entirely (like their high rate of hip fractures).

 

Incidentally, the wild game native peoples ate is a very different thing from modern-day forced-into-rapid-growth (by various means) animal products.

I honestly wonder if the increase of ice compared to the rest of North America wouldn't account for the hip fractures. There are more hip fractures in the winter months than any other time of year (in my experience in health care) from folks slipping on ice.

 

My dh was raised SDA. Part of that was being vegetarian/vegan. He loathed it, dandelions, thistles and all. I do the occasional meatless meal, probably 2x a week, plus stretching what meat I do serve. Our choices are to do with budget, not any 'diet'.

 

That being said, we're also both yearning for the day when we can move to an acreage, raise our own vegetables and meat...grain too, eventually. Our goal is to be self sufficient in terms of food, so that we know every thing about what we put in our mouths, and those of our children's.

 

I think there's more harm from GMO, pesticides, etc than anything else, including specific diets.

[cillakat]

Ethically, I am *so* on board with vegetarianism. I was a very very conscientious, aware, educated vegetarian, then vegan, and for some points in time, doing raw/live foods as well.

 

My energy levels were sky high! I didn't need as much sleep. My skin glowed.

 

But....I started to become anxious.

 

And eventually I started to develop severe upper and lower respiratory infections.

 

And while my knee pain had initially gone away, it returned and with it, bone pain in my legs and muscle pain symptomatic of fibromyalgia.

 

I developed depression and absolutely debilitating anxiety.

 

While I didn't write the following, I could have:

Vegetarianism and Nutrient Deficiencies

 

"Health Topics - ABC's of Nutrition

Written by Chris Masterjohn

2009-May-07

 

I decided to go vegetarian when I was 18 and vegan soon after, believing I would save the animals, the environment and my health. I thought that my low intake of saturated fat would protect me from heart disease and that my low intake of animal protein and high intake of soy isoflavones would protect me from tooth decay and bone loss. Instead, over the next two years my health took a series of blows: my digestion fell apart; fatigue set in; anxiety took hold; and tooth decay overran my entire mouth—a single visit to the dentist yielded a treatment plan that would take the following year to complete. I was a mess, and I didn’t know why."

 

.....snip.....

 

Vitamin B6

 

Vitamin B6 contributes to myriad functions within the body. It is necessary for the production of histamine, which is involved in inflammation in most of the body but is essential to alertness in the brain; the production of dopamine, which is a precursor to adrenaline and noradrenaline in the adrenals, a precursor to melanin in pigmented tissues, and is involved in memory, attention, and problem-solving in the brain; the storage of carbohydrate as glycogen; the production of the elongated versions of essential fatty acids such as arachidonic acid (AA) and docosohexaenoic acid (DHA); the synthesis of cysteine, the precursor to glutathione, which is the master antioxidant of the cell; the synthesis of glycine, which is involved in detoxification in the liver; the synthesis of heme, which carries oxygen throughout the body in hemoglobin and is a component of drug- and steroid-metabolizing, energy-producing, and antioxidant enzymes; the synthesis of carnitine, which helps burn fat for energy; and the synthesis of taurine, which plays important roles in the brain and eye and assists the digestion of fat and assimilation of fat-soluble vitamins in the intestines. The requirement for B6 is directly proportional to the intake of protein and increases with the use of oral contraceptives and under conditions of hyperthyroidism, liver disease, trauma and stress.24

 

 

Vitamin B6 occurs in three forms: pyridoxine, pyridoxamine and pyridoxal. Plant foods contain pyridoxine, while animal foods contain a mix of pyridoxal and pyridoxamine. Most reactions within the human body require pyridoxal but some require pyridoxamine. Pyridoxine, by contrast, plays no role in the body whatsoever but can be converted into the other two forms in the liver using vitamin B2.24

 

The plant form of vitamin B6 has three strikes against it, making it inferior to the form found in animal foods: its conversion to the active form depends on B2 status, and vitamin B2 levels tend to be higher in animal foods; most plant foods simply contain much less B6 than most animal foods; and most plant foods contain much of their B6 bound up with sugars that make it difficult or impossible to absorb. Figure 4 shows some of the foods richest in vitamin B2. Supplementation with baker’s yeast and the use of enriched white flour can boost B2 intake, but the level found in natural plant foods is much lower compared to the levels in many animal foods. Figure 5 compares the plant foods richest in B6 to the animal foods richest in the vitamin. Tuna and liver are the best sources, and, in general, animal foods contain twice as much as plant foods. Figure 6 shows the proportion of pyridoxine bound to sugars in various plant foods, which ranges from zero percent in almonds to 82 percent in cauliflower.

 

The sugars that bind to pyridoxine can be broken down by microbial enzymes and the mammalian intestine appears to produce a limited quantity of the enzyme as well.30 Studies conducted with humans suggest that the sugar-bound form has at most fifty percent bioavailability and at worst, none at all. One study conducted in men with a purified form of glucose-bound pyridoxine, for example, examined the urinary output of a B6 breakdown product and found that roughly half of the pyridoxine was absorbed. A more realistic study conducted in women using whole plant foods, however, examined not only the urinary output of breakdown products, but also the concentration of the active form in red blood cells and the activity of enzymes dependent on it. This study suggested that the portion of plant-based B6 in the diets bound to sugars had no activity at all.30

Heating destroys vitamin B6. The effect is rather mild, leading to only five percent loss in scrambled eggs, ten percent loss after heating of milk for ten minutes and 45 percent loss after heating milk for one hour.31 The true effect on the biological activity of B6, however, is much greater because heat-damaged B6 can interfere with true B6 and when fed in purified form can actually accelerate the symptoms of deficiency.3233 Many plant foods require more extensive cooking than animal products, which could further decrease the yield of active B6 in vegetarian diets. Cooking most animal foods leads to a 25-30 percent decrease in activity while cooking soybeans leads to a 40 percent decrease in activity.

 

 

One striking comparison between lactating Nepalese vegetarian women and their American omnivore counterparts illustrates the low bioavailability of B6 from plant foods. The Nepalese women in this comparison were consuming twelve percent more B6 but had 35 percent lower serum levels of the active form after three months of lactation and 77 percent lower levels after six months. Their breast milk had the same amount of B6 as that of American women, but a large proportion of it was glucose-bound pyridoxine. Despite the fact that the Nepalese vegetarians were consuming more B6 in the diet and had equivalent levels in their breast milk, their infants had 83 percent lower levels of the active form at four months and 87 percent lower levels at six months.33

 

Vegetarians should select plant foods that have the least amount of their pyridoxine bound up in sugar complexes. Bananas are an excellent source because the sugar-bound form is low, their total content is comparable to many meats, and they are typically eaten raw. Most plant foods are relatively poor sources, however, and B6 intake would be much higher on a mixed diet including muscle meats, seafood and organ meats."

 

 

end quoted material

 

There is more excellent reading at the link at the top of the page and the below. Fwiw, I am not a big fan of Weston A Price Foundations dietary guidelines in general (too much fat, too much animal protein) but there are some excellent science writings found there, including the information I have excerpted.

Copper and Zinc imbalance in a grain based diet

Edited March 18, 2010 by cillakat

[cillakat]

Ah. So this is where the spin off came from.

 

I honestly wonder if the increase of ice compared to the rest of North America wouldn't account for the hip fractures. There are more hip fractures in the winter months than any other time of year (in my experience in health care) from folks slipping on ice.

 

hip fractures though (and frequent fractures in general) are a sign of vitamin D deficiency. The ice is the red herring. While more falls may occur because of it - the *fractures* aren't because of the ice but rather the D deficiency. As you'd expect, not only do the inuit have high fracture rates (along with Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish populations) but they also have low bone density.

 

The inuit also have an exceptionally high vitamin A intake - which is known to cause issues mimmicking D deficiency even when D intake seems sufficient. When there is excess A, it will take over D receptors causing all kinds of issues.

Katherine

[cillakat]

We went back to eating meat every night, and he's back to being healthy. We both thought it was weird that it affected him like that but my overall health didn't correlate with the amount of meat I was eating.

 

 

Men need significantly more zinc and protein than do women. That could have accounted for what you were seeing. Zinc from plant foods is not well absorbed and if one is attempting to get zinc from a wholly plant based diets, probably a 50% increase in zinc intake is needed. The best sources of zinc? oysters, organ meats, all red meats, dark chicken, dark turkey.....

 

And supplements:)

 

Vitamin D also plays a huge role in immune function and we all need to be sure we're getting enough.

 

Best,

Katherine

[cillakat]

And he berates me for my restating what the research says, claiming I am just "brainwashed". That is my main point.

 

 

 

Well, you might want to have a look at more original research. Furhman absolutely frames and reframes and occasionally even disorts the evidence to support his views.

 

His absolutely twists the science as it pertains to zinc and vitamin D.

 

Katherine

[FaithManor]

I'd feed him separately. He is an adult and has a right to his choices.

 

If someone else has brought up this information, then please forgive me for redundancy. I am getting ready to run out and do yardwork so I don't have the time to read all of the responses.

 

Please be careful with the amount of soy your guys get. Soy is REALLY high in physto-estrogens and can act against testosterone. It would best if the boys could get their protein from eggs of free-range chickens and cheese from humanely raised, pasture fed animals. You don't have to give them meat, they just need those sources of good fat, good protein, but not with the estrogens. Also, non-organically raised soy is absolutely the worst form! It is a highly sprayed crop and nearly all pesticides are estrogen based. Huge amounts of synthetic estrogen are used to "poison" the insects nerve receptors causing death or at the least, infertility. In our area, the average the average commercially raised acre of soy plants receives 200 lbs of pesticide per season. That in and of itself sounds awful but when you multiply that over the years, the accumulated amounts of estrogen in the soil are mind-boggling. So, please, definitely get organic soy.

 

Coconut milk might be a great option for the kidlets. Its high in wonderful vitamins, minerals, long chain fatty acids, and is known to have great anti-bacterial and anti-viral properties. Its naturally sweet so it might be easy to get the children to drink it.

 

Please keep us posted about your results. I am always looking for yummy, healthy recipes and especially with green veggies - those seem to be harder to make appealing to children.

 

Faith