Singapore vs MM

[bluemongoose]

So I am seeing a lot of discussion about MM lately, and now I am curious. We use Singapore and we really like it, but the cost difference of MM has got me thinking about switching.

 

I know it has been discussed that the style is very similar between the two, but I have not been able to decipher if they are equal in rigor. My DD has been doing very well with Singapore, so I really don't want anything easier. I am curious about MM because everything seems to be included, so I wouldn't need to purchase extra practice books or test books or anything right??

 

I am really hesitating the switch because "if it isnt broke".... But saving the money down the road and having it all included is very enticing.

 

WWYD in my shoes? :bigear:

[Guest lahmeh]

:lurk5:

[Corraleno]

I switched from Singapore to MM, not because of cost but because it was so much easier to use. I think it is equal in rigor. It's very thorough and doesn't require supplementation. And if you do occasionally want some extra practice or review, you can use the free Soft-Pak software (included with MM) to generate worksheets.

 

If you switch and don't like it, you can easily go back to Singapore; they are very compatible. In fact, Maria Miller recommends Singapore 6 for those who complete MM5 before MM6 is ready (should be out this summer).

 

Jackie

[bluemongoose]

Corraleno- What level are you using? I am reading mixed reviews of parents about MM instructions. Some are saying it is easier and some are saying there were not enough instructions and the parent felt they couldn't teach from what little they had. Do you have any difficulty with this compared with Singapore? And did you use the Singapore HIG? If so, how would you compare Singapore's HIG to the instructions in MM?

[chiguirre]

I'm using both Singapore 1B and MM (finishing Subtraction, starting Place Value). SM is much more fun for dd because of the cartoons. MM has very small print and no fun illustrations. This may or may not be important to your child.

 

I have the SM HIG, but I haven't used it much because dd has grasped the concepts easily and we haven't needed to add in games or extra examples. She does do the corresponding Miquon pages and those add enough hands-on math for her. Personally, I feel MM's presentation is very clear and incremental. Dd usually grasps the concept being presented very easily with MM. The practice problems directly correlate with the concept presented, which is not always the case with SM. The MM blue guides (not the grade level light blue) include game and manipulative ideas as well as the extra worksheet generator and suggested websites, so there's a lot there for reinforcement if you need it. I've found that MM is much more incremental in introducing addition through 100 than SM. Dd has grasped SM's presentation, but we'll need to work through MM Addition and Subtraction 2a and 2b to really cement it, I think. MM provides a lot of drill built into the program, so you don't need to add it in like you do with SM.

 

If I had to choose only one program, I would choose MM over SM because of the incremental presentation of the concepts. However, dd would miss the fun illustrations in SM and math time would not be as much fun for her.

 

You can try out MM for less than $5 by ordering one of the Blue series workbooks and see if you like it or not.

 

ETA: Remember to include your printing costs when you're comparing the programs. MM should still be a lot cheaper, but printing can cost more than the download.

[Corraleno]

Corraleno- What level are you using? I am reading mixed reviews of parents about MM instructions. Some are saying it is easier and some are saying there were not enough instructions and the parent felt they couldn't teach from what little they had. Do you have any difficulty with this compared with Singapore? And did you use the Singapore HIG? If so, how would you compare Singapore's HIG to the instructions in MM?

 

With DD, I've used MM1 and we are halfway through MM2. With DS, I used MM4 and MM5.

 

I took my last math class (other than a semester of statistics in college) almost 30 years ago, and I certainly didn't learn math the way Singapore/MM teach it, but I've never had a problem understanding what MM was teaching. Personally I think there is *more* explanation in MM than Singapore, and the explanations are clearer, better illustrated, and presented in a more step-by-step way.

 

The Singapore textbooks often just give a set of problems, without explanation, and the parent has to read the HIG in order to explain the "why" of what they're doing to the student. That just seemed really inefficient and time-consuming to me ~ to go through three different books when the same material could easily be presented in one. (Needing the HIG is much more of an issue in the upper levels; most parents don't need help explaining simple addition.)

 

With MM, every lesson (2-3 pages) starts with a clear explanation and directions at the top. Usually she illustrates the concept, shows a few problems completely worked, then a few partially worked for the student to complete, then a set of problems for the student to complete themselves.

 

If you're currently using and understanding Singapore, I don't think you'd have any problem with MM. I can understand why someone coming from a very different program might not immediately "get" the use of bar diagrams to solve word problems, or why a parent who is used to a very scripted program where the teaching part is oral might be perplexed by the "small" amount of written explanation in each lesson. But MM teaches less by "telling" than by "showing" (concepts are visually illustrated very very well), and IMO that's one of it's strengths.

 

My very non-mathy DS, who was in remedial math in PS, has not had any problem with the level of explanation in MM ~ in fact there have been many "aha!" moments, where he finally "sees" something in MM that his previous teachers were never able to communicate to him. He did MM4 & 5 in a little over a year, and went from being below grade level to above level. I've rarely had to re-explain something to him, and when I did, a quick reading of the MM explanation was all I needed. With Singapore, there were bigger conceptual jumps where I would have to fill in the blanks.

 

Jackie

Edited February 4, 2010 by Corraleno

[bluemongoose]

Chiguirre-We also use miquon, which I will keep no matter if I switch to MM or not. I appriciate your point about the incremental aspect of MM. We are working through addition about 10 and it seems to be going a little fast for her all of a sudden. Prior to this she got it the first time. I think I would like something a little more incremental.

 

We have a laser printer, so I am not too worried about the cost of the printing.

[HappyGrace]

My 2 cents, and take it knowing I am VERY new to both programs:

 

I did Sing EB with both dd and ds. Ds (turns 7 next wk) zoomed thru 1a and is in 1b. I use the HIG and it helps me so much.

 

Older dd10 has used CLE for three yrs-she needs spiral and we love the program. However, I have noticed she is getting very formulaic in her thinking-doesn't get the "why" behind what she's doing. And she needs to be remediated in some areas in math.

 

Enter MM (Light Blue Level 2)-I figured it would be a good way to have her remediate and learn to understand math, but not be as overwhelming as a full program like Sing since we are still doing CLE. Well, she loves it, I love it. We have only used it for about a wk and a half, and she has had more lights coming on than in the past three yrs!

 

I am simultaneously reading the Liping Ma book, Knowing and Teaching Mathematics. MM seems to be taking what Liping says (specifically from the subtraction chapter) and directly applying it in curriculum form. (Sing. does this too, don't get me wrong!)

 

But looking back and forth on this subtraction topic from the Ma book to the Sing to the MM, the Sing HIG teaches it well, but it is unwieldy going back and forth amongst all the books. MM covers it just as well, but in a somehow more streamlined way.

 

In general, MM also just seems more incremental. With Sing, ds goes along fine, and then all of a sudden Sing makes a huge cognitive leap that he hits a wall on, and then I have to park til he can move ahead. MM seems to move ahead more smoothly, not in fits and starts as much as Sing. does.

 

I am not knocking Singapore. It is wonderful and you can't go wrong with it.

 

MM does not seem as "fun" in some ways-especially the sections one right after another of learning fact families.

 

Sorry this is so disjointed-typing in a hurry. I will be watching this thread with interest because I am in the midst of trying to figure out if I want to stick with Sing or make the leap to MM. MM just seems to be set up in a way that is easier for me to follow-it is pick it up and go. I feel like with Singapore I am poring over the HIGs, trying to pull it all together in my mind before I can teach it. That is not bad, and I don't mind doing it at all-I am so grateful for the amazing HIGs. Just wondering if MM would streamline things for me, similar to how the op is wondering! I do like the incremental nature of MM too. And it is set up so well-each problem set serves a specific purpose and once you work through some of it you see how cleverly she has done it. It also seems to have some elements of MEP (which we also dabble in.)

 

I am hoping it is as rigorous as Singapore at all levels-hope someone will chime in about that! I am also a little nervous since it is a new curriculum, w/out much track record to look at as far as completeness, etc.

 

The results with my dd this past week have been astounding-for the first time she is gaining some confidence and feeling good about math, and actually enjoying it!

Edited February 4, 2010 by HappyGrace

[Corraleno]

I am hoping it is as rigorous as Singapore at all levels-hope someone will chime in about that!

 

I've used all the available MM levels except 3 (which I'll do next year with DD), and I also own a complete set of Singapore from 1A-6B. From looking at both programs, I do think MM is as rigorous and thorough as Singapore. The thing I love about MM is that it's the first program I found where rigor and ease of use were not mutually exclusive. There are some really advanced concepts in there and some challenging problems, but everything is explained so clearly that she is able to lead students into those areas step by step. I think of Singapore as a program for "mathy kids," whereas I think of MM as a program that can take any kid (even remedial) and make them think like "mathy" kids.

 

Jackie

[birchbark]

How is MM for word problems?

[bluemongoose]

I've used all the available MM levels except 3 (which I'll do next year with DD), and I also own a complete set of Singapore from 1A-6B. From looking at both programs, I do think MM is as rigorous and thorough as Singapore. The thing I love about MM is that it's the first program I found where rigor and ease of use were not mutually exclusive. There are some really advanced concepts in there and some challenging problems, but everything is explained so clearly that she is able to lead students into those areas step by step. I think of Singapore as a program for "mathy kids," whereas I think of MM as a program that can take any kid (even remedial) and make them think like "mathy" kids.

 

Jackie

 

Thanks! This helps me a ton! My kid is mathy so far, but she is young and we are hitting our first wall with the addition of a two digit and a one digit number. There was literally only one page on this and that was it. Fortunately, I also purchased the extra practice book. I was beginning to think it was a waste of money, but now in Unit 6 I am finally dragging it out.

 

My understanding of your answer on the HIG vs MM instructions is that MM is written well enough even at the upper levels for parents to understand if they have been using the program (or similar one like Singapore) all the way through, right? Just making sure I understand.

 

And again, thank you for your thorough responses to my questions!:001_smile:

[Corraleno]

My understanding of your answer on the HIG vs MM instructions is that MM is written well enough even at the upper levels for parents to understand if they have been using the program (or similar one like Singapore) all the way through, right? Just making sure I understand.

 

Yes. And I think most people would understand it with no problem, even if they jumped in at MM5 without having used a similar program before. I started MM at 4a, and had no problem "getting it" from Day 1.

 

I haven't read the posts from the parent(s) who felt MM didn't have enough explanation, but I think it could even be that it just didn't look like there was enough, if someone was coming from a program with a TE that had pages of explanation, schedules, teaching suggestions, supplementary activities, etc. I think Maria Miller put an enormous amount of thought and planning into this program; she took the best from several different math programs and distilled it into a very clear, very efficient curriculum that is specifically tailored for homeschoolers. The simplicity of it is not because anything was left out; it's because nothing else is needed.

 

Jackie

 

ETA: I wonder if this part (in bold) was the problem ~ assuming that the parent has to teach MM, instead of letting it "teach itself," as it was designed to do?

some are saying there were not enough instructions and the parent felt they couldn't teach from what little they had.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Corraleno

[Corraleno]

How is MM for word problems?

 

There are plenty of word problems, and they are challenging, often multi-step problems.

 

In 2A a typical word problem would be something like:

"Jane has 7 dolls, Susan has 14 dolls, and Mary has 9 dolls. How many more dolls does Susan have than Mary? If Mary and Jane combined their dolls, would they have more dolls than Susan or fewer?"

 

Here are a couple of actual problems from 5A:

"A T-shirt is discounted by 2/5 of its original price. The original price is $10.50. How much would ten shirts cost with the discounted price?"

 

"Peter's mom has made a rule that for each 2 library books Peter reads, he may also read 3 comic books. If Peter has a total of 45 library and comic books, how many of them are comics?"

 

Jackie

[Sweetbabe]

:lurk5:

[HappyGrace]

Corraleno-thank you for your responses here-it is incredibly valuable to have insight on MM from someone familiar with Singapore too!