Debate.... Elective, core or Extra-curricular??

[Holly IN]

My 9th grade ds is in debate right now. However we are getting frustrated with the workload. The club he is in does things a lot differently than any other clubs. (we are wishing he chose basketball over debate....gggrrrr!!!)

 

They are requiring a lot of work out of my son and his partner. They are novices. From what we hear of other clubs, they work together to get the 1ac, proofs, briefs and so on. They do this together as a group. However my son's club it is each to his/her own. They are not compiling stuff together. So I am utterly confused as to how this works.

 

My dh is ready to pull him out because it is causing my son a great deal of stress in getting these information together. It is a lot more work than what I thought. We want him to stick it out however it is becoming to the point where my son is frustrated in not getting help.

 

My dh wants to know if Debate is considered a credit-based activity where you get a credit towards your high school diploma or extra-curricular activity. He is concerned that if it is not credit base then it is a waste of time for all the work he is putting into it.

 

Can you clear this up for me?

 

I know I am rambling in the post. I apologize ahead of time. Just wanted to give a background information first.

 

Holly

[KJB]

It's all three. I imagine you could list it wherever it will be most helpful on the transcript.

 

I was a very competitive high school debater and I was an assistant coach in college.

 

If you can be more specific about the trouble he's having, I'd be happy to help if I can.

 

Off the cuff, I'd say he needs to kiss up to some kids on the varsity team and get copies of their stuff. Having friends in high places is really helpful for a novice.

 

Who sponsors the club?

[Holly IN]

The coach sponsors the club. There are several coaches. However these coaches really go over my son's head including MINE!!!! The stuff they talk about just leaves me stunned and feeling stupid. :glare:

 

Here is what they are saying:

 

He has to come up with proofs, briefs, negatives, policies (all of them!!) and produce his own box of this stuff. The competition that is required for the club is in March. He is not doing any other competitions even though I want him to. He is just not ready and is freaking out over what he has to do. He is also in Teen Pact on top of this. Right now he is focusing on getting his homework for Teen Pact done. It is in 2 weeks. He will be gone for 4 days. (he is staying at the camp)

 

They are pressuring him to get his stuff done but he also has a full load from ME!!!

 

About the varsity.....Well they want the novices to get the stuff FOR them!! gggrrrr! Not happy about this.

 

He got his 1ac done but has to do a negative for it for the club. Not sure why he has to do that. I think it is a moot point.

 

If it is a credit based...where would that fit on the transcript? I think the work done in debate warrants more than extra curricular because of all the research he is required to do by the club.

 

Holly

[Cedarmom]

For credits I put it in social studies and English. I am very glad that I kept my son in debate. I did lessen my work load on him, but I think the things he learned in debate were very valuable. Have you talked to the coach about your son being overwhelmed? Is there somebody on the the team who could help him. I know that a couple of novice's asked my son for help, and he was happy to help. Another thing our club did was to have a research party. We met at someone's home with novice's and varsity and the the varsity helped the novice research. Maybe you could organize such a party .

 

The skills my son learned in deebate were invaluable. Not only public speaking but organization, research,it improved his essays, the ability to see the consequences of actions, team work, knowledge of the constitution and overall confidence. If you can work it at all, I would keep the debate.

[KJB]

The coach sponsors the club. There are several coaches. However these coaches really go over my son's head including MINE!!!! The stuff they talk about just leaves me stunned and feeling stupid. :glare:

 

Here is what they are saying:

 

He has to come up with proofs, briefs, negatives, policies (all of them!!) and produce his own box of this stuff. The competition that is required for the club is in March. He is not doing any other competitions even though I want him to. He is just not ready and is freaking out over what he has to do. He is also in Teen Pact on top of this. Right now he is focusing on getting his homework for Teen Pact done. It is in 2 weeks. He will be gone for 4 days. (he is staying at the camp)

 

They are pressuring him to get his stuff done but he also has a full load from ME!!!

 

About the varsity.....Well they want the novices to get the stuff FOR them!! gggrrrr! Not happy about this.

 

He got his 1ac done but has to do a negative for it for the club. Not sure why he has to do that. I think it is a moot point.

 

If it is a credit based...where would that fit on the transcript? I think the work done in debate warrants more than extra curricular because of all the research he is required to do by the club.

 

Holly

 

By "doing a negative" what do you mean exactly?

 

If you mean he has to come up with a "disadvantage" which is a specific way to attack an affirmative, it really shouldn't be that hard. All disadvantages have three main pieces of evidence: a link establishing a connection between the plan and the bad thing, a piece of evidence showing how the disadvantage is "unique" to the plan, and an impact saying why it's bad.

 

If you tell me this years resolution and his affirmative, I'll give you an example of a disadvantage if you need one.

 

If you mean just provide some negative refutation evidence, he should have come up with lots of that just researching his affirmative. This is just evidence that negates the "Prima Facie" burdens.

 

These "burdens" must be met by all affirmatives. The negative would argue that these burdens aren't met by saying the plan does not have: significance (evidence saying the problem isn't that bad), inherency (evidence saying status quo will solve the problem by itself), topicality (showing how the plan doesn't fit the terms of the resolution), harm (evidence saying the problem doesn't really matter/cause a bad thing to happen), or solvency (evidence saying the plan won't work).

 

He could come up with a "topicality" argument, also which says why the affirmative does not fit under the umbrella of the resolution.

 

Lastly, he might come up with a "counter plan" that can be accomplished in the "status quo" only unless the affirmative isn't adopted.

 

These are the main types of refutations.

 

Don't know if this helps.

 

It can be really confusing at first, but going to a few tournaments can really help make it all come together and make sense.

[Holly IN]

The funny thing is back in December when we had a practice tourney where our club invited people from our own state of Indiana as well as clubs from Ohio, Illinois and Kentucky. The kids from other clubs were much more helpful to my son than the kids in his own club. They were telling him how their club is run. It is run a lot differently than our club. I will post his topicallity in a little bit as he is occupied right now. :)

 

Holly

[TravelingChris]

My dd is a first year debater as a high school junior. She and her partner will be doing two tournaments and regionals, if they qualify. They have prepared their own case, and all members of the club produce negative briefs which they share. IT is a lot of work. Many weekends, my dd is working all day Saturday and half of Sunday on negative briefs. That said, I think it is the best thing she has done to prepare for college and a career. SHe also has other things she is doing like choir, honor society, and the regular school work. She takes a class in Intro to debating and that will be getting a credit. Other than that, the many extra hours she spends will be extra-curricular. She is learning very valuable skills of researching and or logical refutation.

[MommyThrice]

We are in our third year of debate. I plan to take next year off, but then start again. My kids learn SO MUCH; but it does take a great deal of time.

 

In general, a club cannot really help your child prepare his own case. He and his partner will need to write their 1AC. The "negative" that they want is just a brief explaining how they would argue against their case (they probably WILL come against another team running something similar) and the evidence they would use to do so. Just like any argument or persuasive writing, you really cannot adequately explain your side of the issue without acknowledging the other side. I would never debate a plan without researching how you would argue AGAINST it first. Once he knows the arguements against he case, he will know how to defend it and should prepare evidence to do so.

 

Since this negative brief is for the club, all the other debaters will also be preparing negative briefs. That means that your son will get plenty of briefs to put in his box to argue against the various plans. It should be very beneficial for him.

 

Does he have a book on debate that explains these things? If he's in NCFCA, I would recommend Christy Shipe's Argumentation and Debate. It can sound like a foreign language at first. Going to more tournaments is certainly helpful to get the hang of it and to work out the anxiety.

 

I'm sure you can find a place for credits on the transcript, but the real reason for debate is that it teaches your child the think, research, use logic, understand current events, and think on his feet. It is a major part of our education!

 

Good luck!

Tracie

[FloridaLisa]

Holly,

 

We've been involved with NCFCA debate/speech for several years. It sounds like y'all are frustrated on two fronts: it's time consuming and very confusing. Yep. Welcome to first year debating.

 

Debate takes a suprisingly huge amount of time. Each club will have somewhat different expectations, but all debaters will typically spend gobs of time researching, writing briefs and cases, building their evidence files and practiing. Because debate is so demanding, I always count it as one of my dc's classes and carve out time each day for them to spend on it. In Florida, debate can count as an English or Fine Arts credit.

 

Debate can be overwhelming. For most first years, the vocabulary is new, the theory is foreign, and the topics are usually way outside a first year's working knowledge. Your best bet is to have your dc go to the coach and ask for help. Ask how to write a negative brief. Where to look for evidence. And whether evidence rings (sharing of research and briefs) will be permitted. And keep in mind that this year's NCFCA team policy topic is very broad so the research could just keep going and going.

 

If your dc can hang on and find his footing in debate, I think you will begin to appreciate the enormous benefits debate teaches.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Photo Ninja]

Debate is very time consuming, and the coaches should have prepared you for that. That is why many debaters start researching and writing cases beginning in July. They need that time to prepare. Many debaters try to complete classes during the summer so they have more time for debate during the school year.

 

That said, my dc have thrived with all the research, prep, and competition. We counted it as one semester of Debate (essentially their novice class), and the other years as extra curricular. Debate may not be going on the transcript, but it is very valuable as an extra curricular when it comes to colleges. There is great value there. But the biggest payoff is what your dc learn while debating, including incredible logic, research and writing skills.

 

Our club is run the way yours is, as are all but one I know of. It is hard for me to imagine an entire club working on one case and plan, then everyone running it. It is a lot of work for a team (2 for policy and 1 person for LD) to do, but that is where the learning comes in. Besides, when a entire club runs the same case it is very easy for other clubs to write briefs against all those teams. We have competed against a club that does this and their debaters usually have weak research and cases even as varsity because they never learn to do it all themselves. They usually rely on a few strong debaters. You learn far more by doing it yourself. Then our club and others will come up with briefs against it and that club will often lose every round.

 

You wrote: He got his 1ac done but has to do a negative for it for the club. Not sure why he has to do that. I think it is a moot point. Not really. A negative brief will make him consider all the DAs, etc. that a negative team will run against him and force him to come up with answers and evidence to support them. The other thing writing the negative brief will do is allow him to come up with negative evidence against his case that he can run should he come against another team running the same or similar case as he is. He could be negative against essentially his own case and needs that evidence and strategy. Writing the negative brief allows him to accomplish both strengthening his own case by anticipating what will be run against him and enable him to run a strong negative against an Aff team with his case. This is a common thing to happen, especially among novices. It is not a waste of time, but I can see why it might seem like one to you. It is actually a valuable exercise.

 

I would encourage your to help your dc complete this year. It is hard to spend so much time on prep work without experiencing the actual debates. Our clubs start practice tournaments in October. Working from September till March without ever debating could be discouraging. It's like practicing, but never playing the game. The game is where it all pays off and they realize why what they have been doing is important, and it is motivating.

 

You could give a credit for Debate on the transcript, and if your ds won't be continuing, then you may want to do this. If he does continue, then extra curricular may be a better place.