When to stop Latin--please offer your thoughts.

[Harriet Vane]

Hi folks,

 

My daughter has been taking Latin for a number of years through a co-op. She likes the co-op class and has a knack for language, so it's been a good choice for her. She is also learning Spanish, and keeps the two languages separate in her mind just fine.

 

My plan has always been to give her a good grounding in Latin, then switch to a different modern language. Therefore she will graduate high school fluent in Spanish and proficient in a second modern language as well.

 

Dd is in 7th grade, and will be taking the National Latin Exam this spring. While she does enjoy Latin, she and I are thinking of having her stop Latin this year. She would focus in her 8th grade year on really beefing up her Spanish and on beefing up her English grammar (she's always studied English grammar but it's not gotten the attention I would like it to have since we are also juggling Spanish and Latin). Dd and I both like the idea of a year to solidify in English and Spanish before tackling her second modern language in high school.

 

However, I wonder if she should take one more year of Latin and get one more National Latin Exam under her belt. I know that technically you're not allowed to credit non-high-school classes on a high school transcript, but I am planning to somehow include the information that she has had years of Latin in her college application packages, even if she cannot show actual high school credit for it.

 

Would a second NLE certificate be worth the hours it would take out of our year?

Thanks.

[Rebecca VA]

I'm not able to advise you about your daughter, but I can tell you what I plan to do with mine. She is in seventh grade now and taking Latin I through Lukeion. She'll take the first year NLE exam this spring. Next year she'll do Latin II and take the second year NLE exam.

 

For ninth and tenth grades, I hope to have her take Latin III and Latin IV. Those courses (I'm pretty sure) prepare students for the AP Latin exams. She can also take the third and fourth year NLE exams. So Latin -- not beginning Latin, but advanced, AP Latin -- will show up on her high school transcript.

 

For her junior and senior years, I'd like her to take Greek.

 

She (my daughter) needs to start thinking about a modern language to take in high school. She doesn't have time for it in her schedule now, and we don't know of a good online class, but that will be important for her soon.

[Harriet Vane]

:lurk5:

[Jane in NC]

Well fluency in any language by the end of high school is admirable. I am curious how you are achieving that. Is Spanish a second language for you as well?

 

There are several issues suggested by your post. If your desire is to have a "good grounding" in Latin, then I suspect you are looking for more than roots and basic grammar. What text does your daughter use? My son had a reasonable grounding in Latin after completing the three texts in the Oxford series, although we found that application of this knowledge to reading original texts was another skill set entirely.

 

Which Latin exam is she taking this spring? Since she has been in Latin for "a number of years", has she taken other NLE exams before this one? My son took the Latin I exam in 8th grade, but I have not mentioned that result on his high school transcript although subsequent scores are listed. I'm not sure that an NLE score from 7th grade would carry much weight in a college admissions office. That is your question, isn't it, or am I misinterpreting your post?

 

I believe that the study of Latin helps with learning Romance languages certainly, possibly other languages. Further, it clearly helps solidify English grammar. Before I express an opinion on abandoning Latin or not, I suppose we need to return to those earlier questions of how much Latin has she studied and what NLE exam is she taking?

[Harriet Vane]

Well fluency in any language by the end of high school is admirable. I am curious how you are achieving that. Is Spanish a second language for you as well?

 

We are not native speakers in our house. However, by the time my dd graduates from high school she will have had ten years of Spanish instruction. My dh has kept up his intermediate Spanish by chatting with folks here and there, especially an Argentinian coworker pretty regularly. Dh and dd practice together nearly daily. We have traveled twice to Spanish-speaking countries and have plans to continue doing so. Dd spends a couple hours a week in tutoring with native speakers in addition to her studying/memorizing. We also have hopes of sending her to language immersion camp. Dd does pick up language easily (it runs in the family). At this point she can manage in conversation okay and reads Spanish quite comfortably. I am also learning Spanish now. No language can truly be learned through just grammar studies and vocabulary memorization, which is why we have chosen to invest in regular reading, watching videos, speaking with native speakers, travel, and in future, language camp.

 

There are several issues suggested by your post. If your desire is to have a "good grounding" in Latin, then I suspect you are looking for more than roots and basic grammar. What text does your daughter use? My son had a reasonable grounding in Latin after completing the three texts in the Oxford series, although we found that application of this knowledge to reading original texts was another skill set entirely.

 

Roots and grammar are fine with me, actually. She did Latina Christiana and is now in Henle I. By good grounding, I mean that I wanted her to have an understanding of the structure of the language, and an understanding of the connection of Latin to English and the other Romance languages.

 

Which Latin exam is she taking this spring? Since she has been in Latin for "a number of years", has she taken other NLE exams before this one? My son took the Latin I exam in 8th grade, but I have not mentioned that result on his high school transcript although subsequent scores are listed. I'm not sure that an NLE score from 7th grade would carry much weight in a college admissions office. That is your question, isn't it, or am I misinterpreting your post?

 

While I am reasonably confident that she could take the Latin I exam, her tutor has signed up the entire class for the Intro to Latin exam. I am a little frustrated by this. Dd has worked ahead of the class in her text and definitely has a better grasp of Latin than the others in her class (her tutor and other parents have told me so many times). Her tutor told me she purposely chose the easier test because "there's plenty of time for her to take the others in years to come." I have told this tutor many times that dd is not planning to do advanced Latin for years to come but the tutor doesn't really believe that. She is also pushing for dd to do the Certamen quiz bowl because of dd's aptitude but dd does not want to pursue that. (I would let her if it were important to her.)

 

I know that no college will care about an NLE score from 7th grade--it will not figure into her high school grades. BUT I think that an awareness that she had some years of Latin instruction will bolster the idea that dd has had academic rigor. I also think it will give a favorable impression as it relates to dd's skills in language arts and foreign languages. In other words, I think knowing that Latin was in dd's education will help even if it cannot be officially tabulated.

 

I believe that the study of Latin helps with learning Romance languages certainly, possibly other languages. Further, it clearly helps solidify English grammar. Before I express an opinion on abandoning Latin or not, I suppose we need to return to those earlier questions of how much Latin has she studied and what NLE exam is she taking?

 

Yes, I agree that Latin helps solidify English grammar and an understanding of Romance languages. That's why we have given it four years of our life.

 

Dd picks up language easily. As such I think knowing two modern languages well ALSO has good benefit for her, and a lot more practical return on everyday life than Latin can offer. We cannot do everything (just not enough time) so we are choosing to focus the high school years on two modern languages. It's really a question of whether to give Latin one more year or not--how much further benefit will that year provide? Can we get a similar return on a more concentrated attack on English grammar and on more time spent on her other academics?

[Jane in NC]

Ah...I have a better understanding now. Why not have your daughter take a look at the NLE website where she can peruse old exams? The Intro is really basic with minimal grammar, a bit of history, mythology and a derivative or two. There is no reason that you could not order and administer a Latin I exam if you feel that is preferable.

 

Personally I think that the material on the Latin I exam is hardly a "grounding" in the language. Latin has a subtlety and complexity that, in my opinion, is not apparent until Latin III or so. One can read the rules of grammar but seeing how the language is used by Ovid or Catullus is the real introduction into How Latin Works.

 

I have the sense from your posts that you feel Latin is impractical--or perhaps your daughter feels this way. Then, by all means, study the language or languages to which you feel attracted. For my son, the study of Latin has been critical, not only to understanding the past (he wants to be a classical or medieval archaeologist) but for a foundation of grammar that he did not see as clearly when studying his native language of English.

 

I understand your comment about limited time. We had aimed for my son to have four years of Latin and four years of French in high school. There were simply not enough hours in the day to do both, particularly given my ignorance of French which I attempted to do with my son. I had studied Latin in high school and found that I could hold my own until a certain point in the Oxford Latin III text when memory and logic seemed to fail me. My son decided that Latin was more important to him than French. Your daughter is young, but does she have ideas on what languages she may want to study, particularly given her propensity?

 

Jane

[LoriM]

My dd completed the Wheelock's text over two and a half years, and then spent another year with translations, but stopped Latin in tenth grade. I had NO Latin in high school, so I was fumbling along as a tutor, and she expressed an interest in Spanish, which was my language of choice in high school. :) Even so, I found Spanish easier to "coach" than teach, and she took four semesters of Spanish in college, plus spent a week in Mexico in an immersion program.

 

I wish we'd continued Latin, but even so, my younger dd's Latin experience mimics your dd's...and I *really* regret stopping Latin with her. She never pressed on from the "amateur" Latin into Wheelock's, and certainly never mastered translation. She's also gifted with languages, and so she moved into Spanish and German at a younger age than the older kid had done. While I've been a great Spanish tutor (as has her older sister), she's been on her own for German, and I *stink* at it. LOL. I can't wait until next fall when she can take German I at the college.

 

So, every child is different, of course, but I'd suggest staying with Latin through Latin III and/or 10th grade before going to modern languages alone.

[Harriet Vane]

My dd completed the Wheelock's text over two and a half years, and then spent another year with translations, but stopped Latin in tenth grade. I had NO Latin in high school, so I was fumbling along as a tutor, and she expressed an interest in Spanish, which was my language of choice in high school. :) Even so, I found Spanish easier to "coach" than teach, and she took four semesters of Spanish in college, plus spent a week in Mexico in an immersion program.

 

I wish we'd continued Latin, but even so, my younger dd's Latin experience mimics your dd's...and I *really* regret stopping Latin with her. She never pressed on from the "amateur" Latin into Wheelock's, and certainly never mastered translation. She's also gifted with languages, and so she moved into Spanish and German at a younger age than the older kid had done. While I've been a great Spanish tutor (as has her older sister), she's been on her own for German, and I *stink* at it. LOL. I can't wait until next fall when she can take German I at the college.

 

So, every child is different, of course, but I'd suggest staying with Latin through Latin III and/or 10th grade before going to modern languages alone.

 

Can you tell me more specifically WHY you regret not progressing further?

[Harriet Vane]

Ah...I have a better understanding now. Why not have your daughter take a look at the NLE website where she can peruse old exams? The Intro is really basic with minimal grammar, a bit of history, mythology and a derivative or two. There is no reason that you could not order and administer a Latin I exam if you feel that is preferable.

 

Good idea. We'll definitely do so today.

 

Personally I think that the material on the Latin I exam is hardly a "grounding" in the language. Latin has a subtlety and complexity that, in my opinion, is not apparent until Latin III or so. One can read the rules of grammar but seeing how the language is used by Ovid or Catullus is the real introduction into How Latin Works.

 

Food for thought . . .

 

I have the sense from your posts that you feel Latin is impractical--or perhaps your daughter feels this way. Then, by all means, study the language or languages to which you feel attracted. For my son, the study of Latin has been critical, not only to understanding the past (he wants to be a classical or medieval archaeologist) but for a foundation of grammar that he did not see as clearly when studying his native language of English.

 

I understand your comment about limited time. We had aimed for my son to have four years of Latin and four years of French in high school. There were simply not enough hours in the day to do both, particularly given my ignorance of French which I attempted to do with my son. I had studied Latin in high school and found that I could hold my own until a certain point in the Oxford Latin III text when memory and logic seemed to fail me. My son decided that Latin was more important to him than French. Your daughter is young, but does she have ideas on what languages she may want to study, particularly given her propensity?

 

She's always been attracted to western Europe generally. When we talked last night she was most interested in French, though we both have a strong pull towards German as well since that is the language my father spoke and we have many, many relatives in Switzerland (though we don't really keep in touch, unfortunately). I don't see her going into a field related to classics or ancients, so her desire right now is for languages that she could actually speak with live people.

 

Jane

 

Some thoughts above.

[Kareni]

My daughter took Spanish I and II ending in 8th grade. She also began Latin I in 8th grade and ultimately continued through a post-AP year in 12th grade. In addition she took a year of Ancient Greek in 12th grade. I too had the idea of including those years of Spanish on her transcript; however, I ultimately decided not to. We had no outside verification (i.e., no SAT subject test score in Spanish or any other certificate of proof). I also felt that she had only the slightest grasp of the language after four years without any additional exposure. I regret that she did not continue the language during her high school years, however, unlike your daughter's enjoyment of her class, my daughter had a decided antipathy toward Spanish at that point. (My fault, I fear, as I bombarded her with resources that second year but had no knowledge of the language myself.)

 

My thoughts: if your daughter dislikes the language, have her drop it. If she is enjoying it, I'd strongly recommend she continue it. My daughter (who is a college freshman planning to major in Latin) would concur with Jane that the fun part is when your daughter begins to read Latin. I'm also in agreement that your daughter should try her hand at the Latin I level of the NLE. I suspect that the Intro to Latin exam would be quite easy for her. (My understanding is that a student can take only one exam each year, so I do not recommend signing her up both at the co-op and at home in different levels.)

 

Regards,

Kareni

[LoriM]

Can you tell me more specifically WHY you regret not progressing further?

 

Mainly for the reason others have stated...we had just reached a place in her ability to read Latin that would have enabled her to study more texts, and we regressed to beginner Spanish. It took two and a half years before she was able to read Spanish, and the "boring" memory work and grammar learning stuff is nowhere as interesting or exciting as actually enjoying the language.