Trivium stages (may be silly question...)

[IsabelC]

I have read TWTM for the third time :lol:

 

And I still have this niggling question about the whole structure of this kind of classical education.

 

What if your children just don't, in any way shape or form, resemble the 'stage' they are meant to be at? Grammar stage children, apparently, are little sponges who want to soak up information. They don't want to ask why or go into huge amounts of detail, they just love to memorize those lists of kings/dinosaurs/whatever. So why does my 6yo, who is not gifted btw, constantly ask for explanations of everything? Every day it's things like:

What is outside the universe? What if we could travel faster than the speed of light and get to the edge of the universe? Then we could drill a hole in the edge and find out what is on the other side, couldn't we? What does it feel like when you're dead? How do you know? Why can't animals come alive again after they've died? Is zero actually a number? Why isn't infinity a number? If it isn't, than what is the biggest number? If hot air rises, why is it colder at the top of the mountain? Why are some people unkind? How can you tell if someone will be unkind?

 

And so on and so forth, that is just a sample of what he'd ask in one day.

 

So, is the picture of child development in TWTM true for most children, or not?

Edited October 9, 2009 by Hotdrink

[EthiopianFood]

Wow. Are you sure your child isn't gifted? I could be way off, but wow....

 

I haven't raised a child through those stages, so I won't bother giving you my opinion (I don't have a strong one in the first place). I am interested in hearing others' though. :D

[Laura Corin]

Montessori also has a strong theory about stages of learning. At the end of the year, I was chatting to the headmistress, and she was talking again about concrete, hands-on learning. She faltered, stopped and finally said, 'But 'Calvin' doesn't seem to be doing that stage, does he?'

 

I do think it's worth looking at the WTM stages and taking what's good from them. Both my boys have always been questioners, along the lines that you mention. They have also been able to build a good fund of knowledge over the grammar years which now informs their questions and allows them to take their enquiries further.

 

Best wishes

 

Laura

[Mama Bear]

Each child is so different. I think most are sponges at those younger ages -- my eldest was reading science encyclopedias at 5 and 6, books geared toward children grades ahead. He's been reading Science News now for several years. :) In that particular child, his sponginess was evidenced by his curiosity, if you will. He ate up those books and then took the information, digested it as far as he was able, and then asked questions and drew comparisons based on his newfound information. The first part of that last sentence represents the grammar stage, with the latter part of the sentence leaning into logic and rhetoric. His curiosity now remains, but he applies himself to the subject differently -- more questions are asked of the material itself (logic), and more discussions are had about the implications of that information (rhetoric).

 

So, no I don't think that the delineations are strict. And yet, facets of them do exist within most kids, gifted, learning disabled, whatever.

 

Clear as mud, I'm sure. :D

[johnandtinagilbert]

I have read TWTM for the third time :lol:

 

And I still have this niggling question about the whole structure of this kind of classical education.

 

What if your children just don't, in any way shape or form, resemble the 'stage' they are meant to be at? Grammar stage children, apparently, are little sponges who want to soak up information. They don't want to ask why or go into huge amounts of detail, they just love to memorize those lists of kings/dinosaurs/whatever. So why does my 6yo, who is not gifted btw, constantly ask for explanations of everything? Every day it's things like:

What is outside the universe? What if we could travel faster than the speed of light and get to the edge of the universe? Then we could drill a hole in the edge and find out what is on the other side, couldn't we? What does it feel like when you're dead? How do you know? Why can't animals come alive again after they've died? Is zero actually a number? Why isn't infinity a number? If it isn't, than what is the biggest number? If hot air rises, why is it colder at the top of the mountain? Why are some people unkind? How can you tell if someone will be unkind?

 

And so on and so forth, that is just a sample of what he'd ask in one day.

 

So, is the picture of child development in TWTM true for most children, or not?

He is asking great questions and trying to sponge up his environment by doing so. Perhaps your thinking of "sponging" in a small sense like memorizing math facts. While that is sponging, I consider your dc's questions sponging too. He wants to know how things work, so he's gathering information. Sounds like normal processing to me.

 

To answer your question, I'd say all five of my children, and the many others I have come in contact with via coop, volunteering, and childcare do fit into the Trivium stages of development. There tends to be a 2 year span of "cross over," i.e. some will become dialectic in 5th in small steps, others in 6th, while some burst into the stage in 7th grade. I have found the hands on approach keeps their attention long enough to make the Want to "sponge." (refering to the Montessori post).

 

Sounds like you oughta be a well read Momma, cuz you're little one's gonna keep you on your toes!

 

Best wishes for happy home schooling!

 

p.s. eta: I find the stages to be applicable in matters of character also, not just academics. I.e. we instill our values in grammar stage (giving them information), then in dialectic they begin to apply those values, make mistakes, ask questions in a deeper sense and finally, in logic, they decide whether or not they agree and really walk out their own lives, no longer as experimenters, but as individuals.

Edited October 9, 2009 by johnandtinagilbert

[Amber in AUS]

I am right there with you. My DD blows my mind with those kind of questions all the time but she would probably fall on the gifted spectrum (we have not tested, i just say bright). She not only wants to know the information but wants to apply it and relate it to things she already knows. She is making a ton of connections. I actually have to instill quiet time after lunch so that i have a break and can hear myself think. I guess not everyone can fit nicely into a box and TWTM lays out the 3 stages as they would apply to the majority.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

He is asking great questions and trying to sponge up his environment by doing so. Perhaps your thinking of "sponging" in a small sense like memorizing math facts. While that is sponging, I consider your dc's questions sponging too. He wants to know how things work, so he's gathering information. Sounds like normal processing to me.

 

:iagree: My two dss are like this, too. I believe that is a part of being a sponge- trying to soak up all the information you can by questioning. They are gathering knowledge, but not in the same way as memorizing lists of things. My kids ask lots of questions about how God makes things work, which I think is funny, because we are not a religious family at all. They also have issues with the concept of infinity and the "biggest" number.

[rwjx2khsmj]

He is asking great questions and trying to sponge up his environment by doing so. Perhaps your thinking of "sponging" in a small sense like memorizing math facts. While that is sponging, I consider your dc's questions sponging too. He wants to know how things work, so he's gathering information. Sounds like normal processing to me.

 

:iagree:My ds6 is constantly questioning and talking through his ideas. It's totally his way of learning how things work and why. Definitely a sponge and he remembers EVERYTHING.

[lionfamily1999]

Lol! I thought those questions WERE part of the sponge period!

 

Ds is just like this, dd was too, and my youngest to an extent, although his questions are what are they called, what is their name (it means two different things for him). We're using TWTM and have older ds in is age appropriate slot, but I do stray from what we're covering to answer those questions.

 

This is an excellent time to show your dc how to find information. When ds has questions I can't answer we use encyclopedias to find the information and if it's not there, we'll run internet searches. Please don't give your dc misinformation, or cast off their questions, instead show them how to FIND the answers :)

 

Have fun, I think I've learned the most just by trying to find answers for my dcs ;)

[LND1218]

Those are grammar stage questions. Those are questions looking for knowledge. It may help to think of them as knowledge, wisdom and understanding instead. Those are knowledge based questions.

 

That is IMHO exactly what grammar stage kids ask. Not all grammar stage kids ask them, but they are very stage appropriate.

 

The grammar isn't a "perfect stage" - kids move in and out of it at their own pace. Sometimes going back and forth in and out of it as they grow. So you may see dialectic questions.

 

The 3 stages not only refer to the child growing up but the method we teach subjects in a trivium based classical model. You learn the grammar of math, English, Latin, music, history etc. before you learn the dialectic and rhetoric. Some kids will move quickly through the grammar of math and into the dialectic while other move quickly through English grammar.

 

I have a grammar stage kid - doing grammar stage math, dialectic stage English and rhetoric stage Latin. But she did the grammar stage before moving to dialectic and then rhetoric. And she is still very much grammar stage despite being dialectic in somethings and rhetorical in others.

 

I believe that you should learn a subject starting with the grammar no matter the age of the student. If you learn to play the piano at 35. You need to learn to read music and play the notes - the grammar of piano before moving on the dialectic and rhetoric.

[IsabelC]

Both my boys have always been questioners, along the lines that you mention. They have also been able to build a good fund of knowledge over the grammar years which now informs their questions and allows them to take their enquiries further.

I'm glad other people's children ask these questions. Sometimes I chuckle when I hear mothers complain that their child wants to know how babies are made - cause that is so easy compared to half the questions we get :lol:

 

Each child is so different. I think most are sponges at those younger ages -- my eldest was reading science encyclopedias at 5 and 6, books geared toward children grades ahead. He's been reading Science News now for several years. :) In that particular child, his sponginess was evidenced by his curiosity, if you will. He ate up those books and then took the information, digested it as far as he was able, and then asked questions and drew comparisons based on his newfound information. The first part of that last sentence represents the grammar stage, with the latter part of the sentence leaning into logic and rhetoric. His curiosity now remains, but he applies himself to the subject differently -- more questions are asked of the material itself (logic), and more discussions are had about the implications of that information (rhetoric).

 

So, no I don't think that the delineations are strict. And yet, facets of them do exist within most kids, gifted, learning disabled, whatever.

 

Clear as mud, I'm sure. :D

No, that does make sense to me actually. My son enjoys science, but even though he is further ahead than average, he still has the grammar stage attitude towards things, eg he might look at the periodic table and be interested in which elements are useful for certain applications, but he would not be capable of making judgements or arguments such as whether the depletion of natural resources should be controlled.

 

 

p.s. eta: I find the stages to be applicable in matters of character also, not just academics. I.e. we instill our values in grammar stage (giving them information), then in dialectic they begin to apply those values, make mistakes, ask questions in a deeper sense and finally, in logic, they decide whether or not they agree and really walk out their own lives, no longer as experimenters, but as individuals.

Thanks for that insightful comment, I hadn't really thought of the stages in those terms, but what you're saying definitely rings true.

 

I am right there with you. My DD blows my mind with those kind of questions all the time but she would probably fall on the gifted spectrum (we have not tested, i just say bright). She not only wants to know the information but wants to apply it and relate it to things she already knows. She is making a ton of connections. I actually have to instill quiet time after lunch so that i have a break and can hear myself think. I guess not everyone can fit nicely into a box and TWTM lays out the 3 stages as they would apply to the majority.

I love the way they are always making those connections. That's another reaons why I am thinking it could be good to follow the idea of cycling through everything three times, as the connections would be formed with more depth and complexity each time.

:iagree: My two dss are like this, too. I believe that is a part of being a sponge- trying to soak up all the information you can by questioning. They are gathering knowledge, but not in the same way as memorizing lists of things. My kids ask lots of questions about how God makes things work, which I think is funny, because we are not a religious family at all. They also have issues with the concept of infinity and the "biggest" number.

Funny, that. I wonder whether some people are naturally obsessed by this topic and, if so, whether this is heritable, because I have suddenly remembered that I used to bug my math teacher about infinity :lol:

 

:iagree:My ds6 is constantly questioning and talking through his ideas. It's totally his way of learning how things work and why. Definitely a sponge and he remembers EVERYTHING.

Yep, my ds remembers everything too (especially the things we didn't actually mean him to hear in the first place :blushing:)

 

 

This is an excellent time to show your dc how to find information. When ds has questions I can't answer we use encyclopedias to find the information and if it's not there, we'll run internet searches. Please don't give your dc misinformation, or cast off their questions, instead show them how to FIND the answers :)

That's a good idea, and we do try to do this, although with some questions it is surprisingly difficult to find answers suitable for a child.

 

 

The 3 stages not only refer to the child growing up but the method we teach subjects in a trivium based classical model...

I believe that you should learn a subject starting with the grammar no matter the age of the student. If you learn to play the piano at 35. You need to learn to read music and play the notes - the grammar of piano before moving on the dialectic and rhetoric.

Absolutely true.