XPOST: Need help with handling a situation (esp if your kids are in CAP)

[TraceyS/FL]

From the Special Needs forum: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1136834

 

I've gotten some good input - but like someone said, i'm asking a limited group, so now i'm asking for a broader input.

 

Thanks bunches. I should also add to the other CAP parents, i've been asked to join as a Senior and will probably do that after the divorce stuff is over. I can't add something else to my brain at the moment. But i don't plan on being hands off with the Squadron, i enjoy working with the kids and what they do.

 

here is the post......

**********************************

 

I need to address this, but not sure how far to go - and what to NOT say either.

 

My oldest recently joined Civil Air Patrol and is really enjoying it. THey had the opportunity to go for glider flights yesterday at the last minute - and she got to go since i was the only one that could drive (the Colonels van was in the shop).

 

So there were 4 girls, and 1 boy. The boy was the highest ranking cadet there - he actually is the same rank as one of the girls boyfriend. She was the highest ranking female cadet there.

 

So i found out when we were ready to leave that this girl has ADHD but couldn't take her meds because she isn't allowed to fly with them.

 

OK, then.

 

It wasn't that bad on the way over (90 minute drive), she was REALLY pushy over what movie they were watching, the 4 of them were enjoying Race to Witch Mountain - she declared she didn't like it and wanted to watch the original (we had that with us too). There was like 20 minutes left... they all let her get away with it.

 

So there was an incident while we were there, out on the flight line, involving ME. She came down too hard on my DD for something she asked me - because i honestly don't think she could think clear enough to "get it". She said something later to ME about my DD's "listening problem", i got really irked the way she was saying it too. She really didn't listen to what i said was going on - and my DD was responding how i'd expect her to given what i said on the phone to her.

 

The other girls said away from her, "don't pay much attention to her, she's like this when she's not on her meds".

 

Which i get is an issue, BUT, i found her actions/behavior unbecoming to her position as the "highest female ranking cadet" there. Which she kept reminding us of too. Frankly, i would have busted her behind right there to the Colonel had the med "excuse" not been in play.

 

It proceeded to go downhilll when after my flight my camera was missing. They were content to sit there eating my food and drinking the water i bought them because they showed up with neither, and this one girl actually SMIRKED at me and said, "so where IS your camera?". At that point i realized that my CAR KEYS were also missing after my DD had hunted around in the van for some extra clothes for one of the girls (she didn't get the "wear shorts" memo and was in BDU's). So i snapped about it, and they STILL didn't get up to help look. The boy did - and about that time DD discovered where the other golf cart with my camera had gone (and i'm talking a $2000 camera here - but seriously, i'm pretty sure they'd not have a clue it would be that much to replace).

 

The ride home was bad - i had a headache this morning from the loudness. She got one of the other girls wound up with her and ye gads. They then chose to sit in a booth for 4 at dinner - leaving my DD "out" and sitting alone. This girl is the ring leader apparently, and honestly the other 2 are good kids but just follow her, i'm guessing because they all go to school together. (i spent about 5 hours with one of them at an event a few weeks ago, totally different girl with this one not around).

 

The thing is, the Colonel (who was in the car, but can tune them out) knows there was an issue and that i told him i'd talk about it later when the kids were around.

 

I know i will NOT attend an event she is at unmedicated again, and have told my DD that she has my permission to say that too. My DD also understands that she was so "out of control" because she was off her meds and didn't take it personally (very much).

 

BUT, some of her actions were just bad. And, reflect poorly on the Cadets, and frankly, some of them i felt where out of line even off the meds. She says she wants to join the Air Force and become a JAG lawyer. OK, but well, that won't work with what i saw yesterday....

 

SOOO, i have no idea how much to address. How much can be blamed on the meds - and if it ALL can really be their fault, should be be allowed to beat up the cadets under her even if she is out of control? Am i thinking that if she is that bad off them, that she should "step aside" or something and let the next girl step up to the plate?

 

She has been in for a few years, we are new. But this girl off meds is NOT pretty (nor quiet - if i had to hear about her boyfriend and how he likes her OUT of the red dress one more time.... ). Her behavior and actions toward my DD after i snapped at her about my missing keys was poor - and she drug the other 3 with her. My conversation needs to be about her actions towards ME and not my DD who got drug into it too....

 

Does this make sense at all? I just don't know how to approach this - and could use input from those of you that have kids on meds and might have more advice.

 

One thing i can say, if THAT is ADHD.... there is NO WAY that my middle child is remotely even close to being ADHD like that doctor said.

 

So can anyone help me here???

 

Thanks....

[swellmomma]

I have 2 kids with ADHD. One is medicated because off meds he is like that girl and even more so. He ends up with full blown meltdowns, and dangerous behaviour not just loudness and such. DD is not medicated but she can be like that due to the adhd. That said I do not allow them to behave that badly whether they are on their meds or off, but if I am not there to constantly remind/redirect there isn't much I can do. Yes that is what it is like off meds, the reason she is on meds is because she can not control those behaviours without them. Yes it is annoying for others, but she honestly can not see in the moment that is what she is doing. Not all kids with ADHD are this severe, there is various degrees of it, even between my 2 kids they have different degrees of severity. I do not think she should have to step aside and give up her title in the cadets. SHe has been there for years and earned that rank, on meds I bet she is a totally different girl and that is how she moved up to that rank. Expecting her to give up years worth of promotions because she wasn't allowed her meds that day is excessive imo.

 

Also you do not know which girl hid or keys or camera, you just assumed it was her because you don't like her. You also said only the boy got up and helped you look, but did you actually ask the other girls to help? Was your dd helping? My dd is often a ring leader too, but the kids she is with will stop and help with something if directly asked, if they didn't think to do it before.

 

As for her future career goals I would not discount them based on one poor day of behaviour. I can guarantee your dd is not perfect all the time and you would not like people assuming she could never reach her goals because she had a bad day.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'd be concerned that in this situation her being off her meds may pose behavorial problems while she's flying. Until I had fuller understanding of both the organizations rules and also about her meds and their relationship to flying...no dd in a flying situation with her.

 

I'd be concerned about the Colonel's no response. I'd contact him and if nothing was done about this matter I'd go above his head.

 

I'd address the parents of this girl about her being out of her red dress. I'd find the words to express what she does and what they allow are entire up to their family, but would ask that their daughter find some discretion b/c the entire conversation was inappropriate for not only your daughter's but also Your ears...Ew.

 

I'd pray she moves on to college soon and gets away from dd.

 

I'd invest the time with the other girls in a social and fun way so dd can build relationships outside of cadet time.

[TraceyS/FL]

I have 2 kids with ADHD. One is medicated because off meds he is like that girl and even more so. He ends up with full blown meltdowns, and dangerous behaviour not just loudness and such. DD is not medicated but she can be like that due to the adhd. That said I do not allow them to behave that badly whether they are on their meds or off, but if I am not there to constantly remind/redirect there isn't much I can do. Yes that is what it is like off meds, the reason she is on meds is because she can not control those behaviours without them. Yes it is annoying for others, but she honestly can not see in the moment that is what she is doing. Not all kids with ADHD are this severe, there is various degrees of it, even between my 2 kids they have different degrees of severity. I do not think she should have to step aside and give up her title in the cadets. SHe has been there for years and earned that rank, on meds I bet she is a totally different girl and that is how she moved up to that rank. Expecting her to give up years worth of promotions because she wasn't allowed her meds that day is excessive imo.

 

I'm not asking her to give it up, but if she cant' know what she is saying - is that fair to the other kids to just have to put up with her "pulling rank" and being not a good example?

 

As an example, they were being shown pre-flight steps by a member of the club that was gracious enough to allow them to use their gliders (and give them a massive discount on flights). This gentleman was a retired Army guy and really was taking the time to go thru step by step with the cadets. The cadets had been told when they arrived that MEMBERS came first, and they were to step up and help any members around needing it.

 

So while he was going over the pre-flight checklist with them, the final cadet to fly landed. She just walked away to go talk to her about her flight. The other 3 stayed (despite one of them being called by her to go over there and talk "as friends" as opposed to needing her for something CAP related) listening and learning.

 

To me, this was NOT a good example to be setting, both to the Club Member AND to her fellow Cadets - but she was oblivious to her actions.

 

The higher ranking members are supposed to be teaching and guiding the newer members.

 

It was a very fine tight line to walk to know when to step in, and when to let the Alpha female issues sort out. I also have prior knowledge of her actions that led to another female cadet leaving the squadron (i was in the room when it went on, i'm not sure if any of the CAP Seniors know that though). Again, this would be medicated actions.

 

I just am not sure where to go - hence the asking for advice.

 

Also you do not know which girl hid or keys or camera, you just assumed it was her because you don't like her. You also said only the boy got up and helped you look, but did you actually ask the other girls to help? Was your dd helping? My dd is often a ring leader too, but the kids she is with will stop and help with something if directly asked, if they didn't think to do it before.

Actually, NO ONE hid them.

 

I was driving the golf cart to pull the gliders to the runway. I had both cameras on the cart. One of the pilots came to ask me if i wanted to fly - and I did. I was going to take mine with me - but decided to not. I handed it to her to take to the table for me during my 30 minute flight. My DD was my wing walker and not able to leave that position to get the camera.

 

Because i was 3,000 feet in the air, i had no clue where they ended up. When i landed, everyone was back at the table gathering the stuff. I expected to find my cameras there - and they weren't there. I didn't even ask anyone but my DD where they were (since one of them was hers), and she didn't know where it had gotten put (since she was on the runway with me). She was helping me, the guy was trying to think where it might have ended up, my DD took off to hunt for the keys when i realized they weren't on the table. The person that had taken the camera and set it somewhere wasn't talking.... but there was a smirk on her face.

 

What had happened was the golf carts had gotten traded by a Club member, and the cameras were on the OTHER cart.

 

I did ask where it was - i wasn't expecting them to go fetch it, but did expect to get an answer as to what they did with it when handed it.

 

As for her future career goals I would not discount them based on one poor day of behaviour. I can guarantee your dd is not perfect all the time and you would not like people assuming she could never reach her goals because she had a bad day.

 

I'm going to assume Brandy that you haven't actually noticed that i'm currently in H*** with getting my child diagnosed with things, one of whom was diagnosed just 2 weeks ago with ADHD and told she needed meds but CAN"T go on them due to her genetic condition that inhibits her growth (this is a bad diagnosis btw, her ADHD issues can all be explained by her CAPD & SPD, but the Developemental Ped hadn't bothered to read those reports). I'm am far from thinking that my children are perfect, quite the opposite.

 

I also know that my middle child couldn't attend a function like this alone, without her father or I. It's reality of her issues. That would be to ensure she isnt' being rash, but also out of concern for the others she'd be around.

 

But, i'm concerned because this could have been a very big SAFETY issue, thankfully the gliders just held a pilot and a cadet . I can go with the rest and avoid for myself some of it.

 

I just know i have to put on kid gloves and express my concerns, but don't know how much to keep to myself.

[TraceyS/FL]

was a very fine tight line to walk to know when to step in, and when to let the Alpha female issues sort out. I also have prior knowledge of her actions that led to another female cadet leaving the squadron (i was in the room when it went on, i'm not sure if any of the CAP Seniors know that though). Again, this would be medicated actions.

 

I actually want to further clarify this part.

 

It was obvious to me there was more going on behind the scenes, and that the female cadet that left was having a rough night. Rather than notice that and be a friend - which is what i think she needed - she barked orders at her. I felt really really bad for her and tried to befriend her that night, but it was our first night there and she didn't know me from squat. She was in a good mood and smiling until it was pointed out that she had a white ponytail holder in her black hair. She was fine with the Major pointing that out, but i was sort of appalled at the way the other girls then jumped on it and didn't let it drop nor offer to help. I figured that was just how it was - and have reminded DD ever since that she needed to pay attention to that.

 

But i wasn't surprised at all when she wasn't there the next Tuesday and her grandfather showed up with her/their resignation letter.

 

That just put me on alert and until wednesday during the flights i hadn't really seen the same type of behavior from the girls. I have no idea how long the girl had been in that quit, but i'm guessing a decent amount of time.

 

Anyway....

[TraceyS/FL]

I'd be concerned that in this situation her being off her meds may pose behavorial problems while she's flying. Until I had fuller understanding of both the organizations rules and also about her meds and their relationship to flying...no dd in a flying situation with her.

This is where i am right now.

 

I'd be concerned about the Colonel's no response. I'd contact him and if nothing was done about this matter I'd go above his head.

He's very open to responding, in fact he'd asked me about a concern another parent had about the meeting Tuesday evening since he wasn't in the room (he was finalizing the glider plans).

 

I don't expect to have to go over his head at all.

 

I'd address the parents of this girl about her being out of her red dress. I'd find the words to express what she does and what they allow are entire up to their family, but would ask that their daughter find some discretion b/c the entire conversation was inappropriate for not only your daughter's but also Your ears...Ew.

Well, i don't know them well enough at all - and we are polar opposites in parenting though. They have allowed the boyfriend to live with them at times. His mom threw him out at 12. He's a good kid with a good head on his shoulders, but he's also a hormonal 15yo boy and well.....

 

I'd pray she moves on to college soon and gets away from dd.

Not going to happen soon - she's 14 and won't be 15 until November.

 

I'd invest the time with the other girls in a social and fun way so dd can build relationships outside of cadet time.

i'd like to, and will try, however we live 25 minutes one direction from the airport, and they live 20 the other direction and apparently all go to school together. But they are nice kids, even the one that needs meds full time.

 

I just think there is some Alpha Female struggles going on, and worrying that someone might befriend the new kid and like them more than her. Those feelings might have been exacerbated by being off the meds too.

 

ANYWAY.... trust me here, i'm not out to get her at all. I'm wanting advice on how to best work WITH her thru all of this, and how to prepare my DD to handle it as to not allow it to hurt her.

[Mommyof4ks]

I don't really understand why this girl cannot have her meds to fly. She is not someone I would trust off her meds, so it seems like that would be more of a risk than her having them KWIM? Is she really any better on her meds? Maybe she uses 'being off her meds' as an excuse to act this way? Even my 4 yr old knows that when he is on high dose steroids they can make him crazy and he uses that to his advantage. Anyway, that was not an answer to your question but an observation.

 

Anyone who is in charge has responsibilities with or without a medical condition, so if she wants the leadership position then she has to prove she is responsible enough to have it. Leaders have a responsibility to set a good example also and to promote safety. I would discuss the issues you have with colonel. Perhaps her parents need to be present when she is not on her meds or something to help her maintain self control and behave appropriately. Her parents my have the hope that a structured program like CAP will 'straighten her out' like ROTC.

 

As for your dd dealing with her, I have no advice. I usually just ignore people like that, but since this girl is in a leadership type position that might be hard to do.

[hillfarm]

This is a tough issue. We have a family member somewhat like this. It is so hard to determine what behavior is caused by her medical condition, what is caused by her medication or lack thereof, and what behavior is just her personality. The bottom line we have come to is that it doesn't matter. Unacceptable, unsafe, inappropriate behavior has been labeled such for a reason. The explanation behind it doesn't really matter. We have had to learn to differentiate between annoying behavior that just irritates us and that which is absolutely not acceptable. We grit our teeth and look the other way for the first, but refuse to allow her to endanger herself or anyone else in the second situations.

 

It is wonderful that the CAP girl is able to participate in as many things as she can, but if she isn't allowed to fly when on her meds and is not able to control herself to the point of being safe when she is not on them, then perhaps this is not a person who should be flying.

 

I don't think she should have her rank removed, but if she is not controlled by her meds and unable to control herself, then I think she should have to defer to the next person in line as being the high rank. High rank is supposed to mean something, represent an excellent standard of conduct, be an inspiration to the younger ones, and be someone leadership can count on in an emergency. It does not sound like this person is capable of these things when she is off her meds. Therefore the appropriate thing would be for her to take a medical pass and disqualify herself from ranking position for that particular outing. Rank is absolutely NOT about lording it over all the others, bragging rights, and setting a bad standard of conduct.

 

I realize that this is a very sensitive issue for some, but I think we have to look at it from the wider view. Making excuses for her behavior is only going to make it harder on her when she finally comes to that point where performance is the only criteria judged. We all have limitations and have to learn to live within them. I'm not suggesting that she shouldn't be able to be high ranking during a field trip to the flight museum, where she can be on her meds and a perfectly civilized, responsible person. However, in a situation like flying, if she is unable to perform the duties of that rank, then she should step down temporarily.

Edited August 14, 2009 by hillfarm

[johnandtinagilbert]

:iagree:

This is a tough issue. We have a family member somewhat like this. It is so hard to determine what behavior is caused by her medical condition, what is caused by her medication or lack thereof, and what behavior is just her personality. The bottom line we have come to is that it doesn't matter. Unacceptable, unsafe, inappropriate behavior has been labeled such for a reason. The explanation behind it doesn't really matter. We have had to learn to differentiate between annoying behavior that just irritates us and that which is absolutely not acceptable. We grit our teeth and look the other way for the first, but refuse to allow her to endanger herself or anyone else in the second situations.

 

It is wonderful that the CAP girl is able to participate in as many things as she can, but if she isn't allowed to fly when on her meds and is not able to control herself to the point of being safe when she is not on them, then perhaps this is not a person who should be flying.

 

I don't think she should have her rank removed, but if she is not controlled by her meds and unable to control herself, then I think she should have to defer to the next person in line as being the high rank. High rank is supposed to mean something, represent an excellent standard of conduct, be an inspiration to the younger ones, and be someone leadership can count on in an emergency. It does not sound like this person is capable of these things when she is off her meds. Therefore the appropriate thing would be for her to take a medical pass and disqualify herself from ranking position for that particular outing. Rank is absolutely NOT about lording it over all the others, bragging rights, and setting a bad standard of conduct.

 

I realize that this is a very sensitive issue for some, but I think we have to look at it from the wider view. Making excuses for her behavior is only going to make it harder on her when she finally comes to that point where preformance is the only criteria judged. We all have limitations and have to learn to live within them. I'm not suggesting that she shouldn't be able to be high ranking during a field trip to the flight museum, where she can be on her meds and a perfectly civilized, responsible person. However, in a situation like flying, if she is unable to perform the duties of that rank, then she should step down temporarily.

A wise evaluation.

[TraceyS/FL]

This is a tough issue. We have a family member somewhat like this. It is so hard to determine what behavior is caused by her medical condition, what is caused by her medication or lack thereof, and what behavior is just her personality. The bottom line we have come to is that it doesn't matter. Unacceptable, unsafe, inappropriate behavior has been labeled such for a reason. The explanation behind it doesn't really matter. We have had to learn to differentiate between annoying behavior that just irritates us and that which is absolutely not acceptable. We grit our teeth and look the other way for the first, but refuse to allow her to endanger herself or anyone else in the second situations.

 

It is wonderful that the CAP girl is able to participate in as many things as she can, but if she isn't allowed to fly when on her meds and is not able to control herself to the point of being safe when she is not on them, then perhaps this is not a person who should be flying.

 

I don't think she should have her rank removed, but if she is not controlled by her meds and unable to control herself, then I think she should have to defer to the next person in line as being the high rank. High rank is supposed to mean something, represent an excellent standard of conduct, be an inspiration to the younger ones, and be someone leadership can count on in an emergency. It does not sound like this person is capable of these things when she is off her meds. Therefore the appropriate thing would be for her to take a medical pass and disqualify herself from ranking position for that particular outing. Rank is absolutely NOT about lording it over all the others, bragging rights, and setting a bad standard of conduct.

 

I realize that this is a very sensitive issue for some, but I think we have to look at it from the wider view. Making excuses for her behavior is only going to make it harder on her when she finally comes to that point where preformance is the only criteria judged. We all have limitations and have to learn to live within them. I'm not suggesting that she shouldn't be able to be high ranking during a field trip to the flight museum, where she can be on her meds and a perfectly civilized, responsible person. However, in a situation like flying, if she is unable to perform the duties of that rank, then she should step down temporarily.

You summed it all up how I am/was feeling, especially the stepping aside temporarily. I guess that i assumed that that was understood - that on outings without meds she not be able to "lead". But you are right, there was no way she was going to be reliable and able to help had there been a situation occur either.

 

I've had some feedback from someone in CAP for multiple years and they want me to tell it like it was to the Colonel. AND, that it is not CAP policy to deny meds for flying. AND the basic CAP Code of Ethics was violated.

 

The best description i can use is, "Conduct unbecoming of an officer."

 

I'll sort out how to get the info to the Colonel before the next meeting. I'm thinking face to face might be better than email, but i'm not sure i can pull that off.

 

Thanks for letting me sort thru this...

[Sebastian (a lady)]

 

BUT, some of her actions were just bad. And, reflect poorly on the Cadets, and frankly, some of them i felt where out of line even off the meds. She says she wants to join the Air Force and become a JAG lawyer. OK, but well, that won't work with what i saw yesterday....

...

 

FWIW, the military is still pretty restrictive about accepting people who are on medication for ADHD. This might be something that the Colonel would want to discuss with the girl and her parents.

 

I have been in the position a couple times now of having to counsel Naval Academy candidates that their medical disqualification for ADHD medication is not something that will be waivered. It is hard to be in this position, but military service is incredibly stressful and demanding without bringing pre-existing conditions to the table.

 

It might be a good thing is the Colonel did some research and counseling about the restrictions that might exist for applicants with her condition/medication. Not with the purpose of persuading her not to use the medication, but with the intent of making sure her expectations for military service were realistic.