Avila Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) OK, so I don't buy consumable workbooks with the intent to copy and resell them. For me, that one is clear. But, what about getting library books and copying something out of them? What about copying a one-page map for your homeschool? Or copying recipes by hand out of a cookbook? Is one OK? 10? And what about if you check out a library book with a how-to thing, like for crafting? Can you copy the diagram for a craft or should you just work from the library book and try to renew it until you finish? Is it OK to copy it to just make one yourself, as long as you are not selling the item/items made? I don't have any real answers, but I am really interested in opinions on the ethics of this stuff. Just for the record, I haven't copied any maps (yet). I often check out cookbooks and copy recipes, but for my own sanity and hand cramping, I buy the book if I need more than a few. But I am guilty of checking out a knitting book and copying the pages because I was almost done with a complicated project and could no longer renew the book the pattern was in. Any takers? Edited June 20, 2009 by Asenik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Personally I see nothing wrong with copying from the library. They provide copy machines there just for that purpose. Also, college is very well set up for such a thing. I believe it is assumed and expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 The selective and very limited amount of photocopying you describe is what I, as a librarian, understand to fall safely within the "Fair Use" doctrine. You are copying a very small portion of the book for personal use. A map here from one book, a diagram there from another book. That is completely legal. Copy machines in the library are there to enable the limited copying we are discussing. OK, so I don't buy consumable workbooks with the intent to copy and resell them. For me, that one is clear. But, what about getting library books and copying something out of them? What about copying a one-page map for your homeschool? Or copying recipes by hand out of a cookbook? Is one OK? 10? And what about if you check out a library book with a how-to thing, like for crafting? Can you copy the diagram for a craft or should you just work from the library book and try to renew it until you finish? Is it OK to copy it to just make one yourself, as long as you are not selling the item/items made? I don't have any real answers, but I am really interested in opinions on the ethics of this stuff. Just for the record, I haven't copied any maps (yet). I often check out cookbooks and copy recipes, but for my own sanity and hand cramping, I buy the book if I need more than a few. But I am guilty of checking out a knitting book and copying the pages because I was almost done with a complicated project and could no longer renew the book the pattern was in. Any takers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Recipes are interesting. You can't actually copyright a single recipe, only a collection of recipes. Copyright law is somewhat vague and nebulous, especially as it comes to fair use, and a lot of it is just decided on a case by case basis. I agree that copying small and selective bits out of books for personal use, whether you bought them or borrowed them from a friend or the library, or printing it off the internet, falls squarely under fair use. But if you're copying a whole book, or even a large portion of it, whether it's a consumable book or not, and whether or not you're selling either the copy or the original, it's an obvious and blatant violation of copyright law. The copyright law protects the author/artist's rights to determine how his/her ideas and work are reproduced and distributed. It's COPY right, not just SALES right. The law does allow for a small amount of photocopying for personal and educational use, but at some point you really should just compensate the author and buy the book. That point is not well specified in the law, and I gather that's intentional because there are so many variations in copyrightable materials that they want judges to be able to use their discretion depending on the materials, the amount that was copied, the use it was put to, whether any money changed hands anywhere along the line, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asta Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I just posted this link on the other thread. I don't know if it is specific for this particular school or if it actually follows "law", but it is a simple to read and well laid out set of guidelines for teachers. a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I have another library question so I hope you don't mind if I put it here with yours.... What about workbooks at the library? Can those be copied, written out longhand on another paper, or used in verbal format? Our library has a large educational section, and it has workbooks to accompany curriculum. A patron obviously wouldn't write in the workbook? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katilac Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I have another library question so I hope you don't mind if I put it here with yours.... What about workbooks at the library? Can those be copied, written out longhand on another paper, or used in verbal format? Our library has a large educational section, and it has workbooks to accompany curriculum. A patron obviously wouldn't write in the workbook? Okay, first just let me say that I am green with envy that this is even a question at your library! A large educational section, with workbooks and curriculum? I shall refrain from whining about the unfairness of it all. I would say that one can use the workbooks verbally, or by writing the answers on another page. It definitely would not be okay to photocopy the entire book. Copying every single problem over by hand is a bit trickier; I'd think that it's okay if you have to copy the problem in order to solve it (math) but not okay if you are copying every problem for future reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) Here's a link to the U.S. Copyright Office's factsheet on fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html If you want to read the actual law, go here: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/. For the fair use section click on chaper 1 and look for section 107. ETA: Here's their circular for educators and librarians: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ21.pdf Edited June 20, 2009 by MamaSheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avila Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) I have another library question so I hope you don't mind if I put it here with yours.... What about workbooks at the library? Can those be copied, written out longhand on another paper, or used in verbal format? Our library has a large educational section, and it has workbooks to accompany curriculum. A patron obviously wouldn't write in the workbook? Feel free to add! I am also jealous about the "large educational section." See, I think this stuff is where I wonder about things. Why would the library carry these sort of things if it was illegal to use them, but exactly what is fair use and at what point are you ethically obligated to buy the book vs. previewing or using it from the library? Isn't any book -- workbook or otherwise -- you are getting from the library depriving the author of sales and using their intellectual property without paying them for it? Isn't the whole purpose of the library to circumvent having to buy every book you want to read or use and therefore at some level unfair to authors, book publishers, etc., as it is depriving them of sales? I say unfair and not illegal or even immoral. And even though I put it that way, it is only because I don't know how else to say it and not because I am trying to smear library patrons, myself included. Maybe selfish is more appropriate? I love my library, so it isn't like I want to or feel the need to stop using it, but if the argument is that we should all be buying new to support authors, then the library should be one of the first things to have to forego. So is it selfish to use the library instead of just buying all the materials new? Sorry, now I am hijacking my own thread! And again, for the record, this is just my musing, so please no flames because I am not calling anyone selfish or calling anyone anything at all. There is no way I would be able to buy everything new, and the library is a huge asset to homeschoolers in so many ways. I guess I am just wondering, in light of the other threads, if anyone else has asked these questions or if I am the only person with too much time on my hands with this today? Edited June 20, 2009 by Asenik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avila Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 Here's a link to the U.S. Copyright Office's factsheet on fair use: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html If you want to read the actual law, go here: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/. For the fair use section click on chaper 1 and look for section 107. Thank you! And thanks to Asta for her link also. Off to read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) Isn't the whole purpose of the library to circumvent having to buy every book you want to read or use and therefore at some level unfair to authors, book publishers, etc., as it is depriving them of sales? I say unfair and not illegal or even immoral. And even though I put it that way, it is only because I don't know how else to say it and not because I am trying to smear library patrons, myself included. Maybe selfish is more appropriate? I love my library, so it isn't like I want to or feel the need to stop using it, but if the argument is that we should all be buying new to support authors, then the library should be one of the first things to have to forego. So is it selfish to use the library instead of just buying all the materials new? Well, theoretically the purpose of the library is to share knowledge, with the recognition that not everyone can afford to buy all those books, not to stick it to creative people by depriving them of sales. ;) Does it deprive authors and publishers of some sales? Yes, probably. But a lot of the people who check out books would not have bought them either way. I think the reason there are special exemptions in the law for libraries, though, is because it's an attempt to balance the rights of authors and artists with the value of having an educated, literate populace. If you say an individual's rights outweigh all else, then you put individuals in the position of being able to control others. If you place the rights of the community over the rights of the individual, you put the community in the position of oppressing and depriving the individual. When you find a balance, there is some sacrifice and some benefit on both sides. The community forfeits the ability to freely copy and distribute any and all creative works at will, in favor of allowing creative people to earn a living through their efforts--without which very little creative work would be produced, and the community as a whole would lose out. The individual creators forfeit the ability to collect a profit from each and every use of their work (by allowing for lending libraries), in favor of having a populace who understands and appreciates creative work--without which the market for creative works would be limited to that part of the population who could afford to become educated about such things and could afford to patronize creative works. It does seem kind of counter-intuitive at first glance, but it does benefit both sides of the equation. But yes, it's definitely a mark of good character to make an effort not to take unfair advantage from either side, IMO. Edited June 20, 2009 by MamaSheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lulubelle Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 I think it's an interesting look at the use of the library. But, I think the purpose of the library is to have access to material that one may not necessarily have the means to. I have used a workbook at the library and just copied a few pages to get an idea if that is what I am interested in. But, my other thought is how many people actually use the library regularly? I'm under the impression that it is a very low %. It is an amazing resource and anyone who has the inclination to use it and to their personal benefit then they are using it for it's created purpose. Whether that be copying one page or the whole book. I don't think companies are losing out much, because the library pays premium for it's material. And, I also don't think book companies are losing either because the patrons of libraries are really very few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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