Are they able to determine with certainty whether the underlying causes for low scores are directly related to eye function, or if they might instead be caused by brain processing abnormalities? What exact problems does VT address?

Yes, and this is what has me wondering if it's even possible to figure out with any reasonable degree of certainty whether kids like mine, with other previously identified processing disorders (dyslexia, CAPD) also have vision weaknesses. Dyslexic gitches run rampant through our family in varying degrees. It would seem difficult to tell the difference. And VT for processing peculiarities would certainly be an expensive mistake in terms of time and money! I tried that today with the child I'm wondering about, and his eyes moved together when I moved the pencil. It might be related to working memory. I wonder if vision therapists consider that possibility during testing (particularly in light of the fact that many dyslexics have low working memory). We just took another child to a neuropsych who seemed like a one-trick pony (eyes looking around too much always = Aspergers) and due to that experience, I definitely want to be more cautious and make sure that from now on we go to therapists who get the big picture. This particular child has low working memory and CAPD and seems to have visual dyslexia. And he tells me he often needs to look away in order to gather his thoughts and formulate a response because he's distracted by visual stimulii. Eye weakness isn't the cause of that particular behavior. That's very interesting. I frequently find him reading in dim light and assumed he just hadn't bothered to turn it on. I'll ask him about it, and I'll check out that book. Thanks!

Heather, can you please elaborate a bit on this? Does VT address any other issues besides teaming, focus, and tracking? I get the impression that some therapists will prescribe VT whether you need it or not. Before making an appointment with a therapist, is there a way to make an educated guess as to whether the problem is processing rather than visual by observing a child's behavior (while reading and writing, for instance)? Or are there any particular questions we could ask our kids regarding their experiences while reading, etc. that might provide us with some insight as to whether the problem is processing rather than visual, before we go so far as to make an appointment? (I've already had one of my kids checked by an optometrist who said his depth perception and peripheral vision were normal, even though the opposite appears to be the case! Yet he puts his face really close to the page while reading.)

Yes! :crying: It was so distressing, and at times I was afraid he'd never progress. He literally couldn't form the first letter of his name for a year. There would be a line on one side of the page and a squiggle on another part of the page. Heartbreaking. We did lots of therapeutic stuff (writing in sand, clay, motor memory, etc.) and went through multiple copies of Handwriting Without Tears. Now he can produce a neat, legible print and does lots of workbook assignments. He's come SO far. :)

Models For Writing http://highnoonbooks.com/detailATP.tpl?action=search&cart=1295316080320206&eqskudatarq=8294-7&eqTitledatarq=Models%20for%20Writing&eqvendordatarq=ATP&bobby=%5Bbobby%5D&bob=%5Bbob%5D&TBL=[tbl] Proofreading http://highnoonbooks.com/detailATP.tpl?action=search&cart=1295316080320206&eqskudatarq=DDD-888&eqTitledatarq=Proofreading%205-8&eqvendordatarq=ATP&bobby=%5Bbobby%5D&bob=%5Bbob%5D&TBL=[tbl] Just Write http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/details.cfm?series=2625M Story Starters http://www.amazon.com/Story-Starters-Helping-Children-Written/dp/188920904X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1295316416&sr=1-1

I think you can probably raise that score. My eldest son had a lower score than he expected on the PSAT reading section. He worked through a pile of practice books for a few months, and he and I went over the questions he missed. His score went way up, he only took the SAT once, junior year, and ended up with large scholarships. A lot of the CR questions are tricky, subtle, nuanced... The more you practice, the easier it gets to spot the correct answers. :)

The "Similarities" section, maybe? Here's a list that explains what's included in the various sections: http://www.cps.nova.edu/~cpphelp/class/psy1501/wisc4tests.html Are you concerned about potential SAT scores, or does she want to pursue a degree in an area that requires strong verbal reasoning? Either way, you can strengthen this type of processing with focused instruction. I've seen materials designed for this (mostly in special needs catalogues) and you can also adapt regular curriculum (Socratic method). For SATs, buying a big stack of practice books and working through the verbal sections can be really helpful. Word of mouth. I found someone I really liked through my homeschool group, but ultimately went with someone else who took my insurance instead (penny wise, pound foolish :tongue_smilie:).

Thanks Elizabeth. This looks really good. I have the original book, but never used it because even though I love the concept, there were no worksheets. The new edition looks much easier to implement. :)

I don’t bother correlating the vocabulary workbooks - he just does a lesson in several of them each day. Some of the vocabulary books are specifically designed for kids with language difficulties, so the lessons provide context for vocabulary rather than presenting a string of unassociated words. On the face of it, $40+ seems pricey for vocabulary books, but it's still a bargain compared to therapy - both time and money-wise. I've tried to pull together a curriculum for him that addresses academics and remediation simultaneously in the most efficient and painless (and least time-consuming) way possible. Teacher Created Resource materials (short lessons since he has that dyslexic learning style Heather describes) help build reading and vocabulary skills relatively painlessly, and he also reads DK Eyewitness books for history and science. I'm going to try that Concepts and Challenges Science, because I think he's finally ready for something like that (thanks, VinNY). We also have English From the Roots Up (5 minutes a day). A Metacognitive Program For Treating Auditory Processing Disorders - this book addresses most of the recommendations made by my younger son's audiologist, and it's very user-friendly, with structured lessons. http://www.proedinc.com/customer/productView.aspx?ID=2745 Here are some links for workbooks, etc. The Linguisystems and TCR websites have sample pages to help determine the level. This looks like a lot, but these are all short lessons and we don't do all of them every day. Curriculum Vocabulary http://www.linguisystems.com/itemdetail.php?itemid=10341 http://www.linguisystems.com/itemdetail.php?itemid=10174 No Glamour Idioms http://www.linguisystems.com/itemdetail.php?itemid=10580 100% Concepts http://www.linguisystems.com/itemdetail.php?itemid=10049 Vocabulary and More http://www.edconpublishing.com/proddetail.php?prod=EDTV500B Non-fiction Reading Comprehension http://www.teachercreated.com/products/nonfiction-reading-comprehension-grade-6-3386?lt=search.14.23.1.20 Read All About It http://www.teachercreated.com/products/read-all-about-it-3970?lt=related.6.9 Eyewitness Books http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Greece-DK-Eyewitness-Books/dp/0756630029/ref=sr_1_22?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1294940063&sr=1-22

CAPD causes this, also. My teenager has perfect hearing but difficulty filtering sounds. He has mild dyslexia and didn't need intensive treatment or intervention for reading. He reads extensively on his own, and has an enormous vocabulary, which helps him fill in the holes when he misses pieces of a discussion, lecture or conversation. My younger child with CAPD is severely dyslexic and needed Earobics, LiPS, etc. to get his reading off the ground. Now we're working on building his vocabulary by extensive front-loading of words, lists, idioms, phrases, word roots, etc. Some days he'll use several workbooks of this type, with some lessons focusing focus specifically on particular areas (eg. science vocabulary or geography, etc.). It's really helping his language processing as well as his reading. And it's relatively cheap and not particularly time-consuming approach. :hurray:

FWIW, as someone straddling both worlds (I have children with major difficulties and also children who are extremely gifted) - IF I could be in charge and wave a magic wand, I would want them all to be average. Average is good, average is normal. :)

Well said. :) No way we'd be progressing (or even have the same understanding of the particular learning issues our family is dealing with) if we were depending solely on the "real world" for help. I'm so grateful to the people who have posted about their experiences - it's been enormously helpful. I think sometimes sharing details about our situations can be misinterpreted as bragging.

:smilielol5: So many utterly ridiculous faux pas in CAPD World. Someone should write a book! I think it's also the reason my house is so noisy - everyone talking over each other, past each other, just a terrible hubbub of miscommunication! :eek:

:iagree: I've come to the same conclusion. And accepting that it's not possible to "fix" these problems overnight (or maybe ever, completely) helps us appreciate the slow but consistent improvements that happen over time as the major accomplishments they truly are. :)

I think you're definitely on to something. Your husband's experience in school was exactly the same as mine, EXACTLY. And we are also math/science oriented in my family with uber-geek IQ's, but not particularly outstanding in the language department. In my case, I even appeared to excel in the language area, particularly on SATs and tests with a lot of fill-ins because I compensated with visual memory tricks. But auditory processing and word retrieval are terrible weaknesses for me. From things I've read, there seems to be a genetic cause for this pattern of strengths and weaknesses. My most recently diagnosed son (15 yo) apparently has right-hemisphere APD (neuropsych told me response patterns indicated "right brain damage", but I haven't received a detailed report from the audiologist yet). He doesn't confuse letters and sounds (scored in the gifted range on testing, which according to a superficial assessment, rules out CAPD). But the audiologist explained to us that by the time a person with CAPD is in their teens, they have often come up with many compensatory strategies. However, the underlying communication disability persists, and as you pointed out, can really have an detrimental effect on lectures, conversations, etc. Yes, and in fact, that's why, when push came to shove, they couldn't label my son with PDD, either (the report said they're "holding the label in reserve", which doesn't surprise me, because the woman told me multiple times she is an "autism expert" and I don't think she liked being questioned about her false assumptions:tongue_smilie:). His early behavioral history doesn't match. Nor does his social behavior. Eye contact and facial expressions can be impacted by auditory problems, which is the culprit in his case. And it also stands to reason that IQ testing or other assessments with a major oral component can't be assumed to be accurate when given to a person with CAPD. It would be like someone having their eyeglasses snatched away, told to demonstrate their reading ability, and then being judged a struggling reader on that basis alone. So I'm not even sure that the neuropsych results have much validity (report describes him as a left-brained learner, in my experience and according to the speech therapist's eval, he's a right-brained thinker. :tongue_smilie:). It makes me laugh to imagine certain people I know (my uncle, cousins, brother, certain friends, maybe even me?) going for a neuropsych eval, because if our recent experience is anything to go by, we could easily come out with the same inaccurate label. We've tried both. When really maxed out, the loop goes out the window and we resort to the straight list of 2 or 3 basics (I try to combine reading and history, for instance, or reading and science, etc. to shorten the to-do list.) The longer the list, the heavier the load feels like, even if we are, in essence covering the same amount, KWIM? Keeping it simple is ultimately more efficient in our case. I'm planning to loop a few extras in during our next cycle, which will probably go until the summer. Also I'm planning to have a totally different schedule on Fridays (experiments, arts, crafts, special projects) because we have no outside activities to deal with on that day. So we'll see how it goes. Nothing is perfect, so we just keep struggling along, adjusting to the priorities of the current semester... :) My husband isn't around much either, but he does do the grocery shopping and mega-cooking on weekends which is a huge help. But he's too busy to do much else. The only outside activities I commit to are either doable as a family or therapeutic (and hopefully both, like karate :)). Even so, it feels like too much at times. Well, if it does turn out he has CAPD, you may not need to do much differently. We've done more adapting rather than intervention. My younger child with CAPD is still in the stage where working on metacognitive communication and social skills training is helpful, but for my teenager, the greatest benefit from the dx is just that he's now AWARE of the problem and can compensate in college, etc. (And stop assuming other people are saying strange things, rather than ascertaining whether HE may have misheard). Like when my husband's boss called the house, and ds answered the phone, and yelled, "It's Auntie Miltie"! loud enough for her to hear . So embarrassing, and we don't HAVE an Auntie Miltie. :lol:

I can SO relate to what you're dealing with - disorders, screaming little ones, OVERLOAD... :tongue_smilie: No way one mother can do it all, so yes, I have spent chunks of time on therapy alone. Regarding the CAPD/PDD thing, we've just gone through the same situation. Neuropsych insisted that 15 yo's "unusual intonation, facial expression, inconsistent eye contact" were a result of PDD, which made no sense, since he's never been "pervasively developmentally delayed" - in fact, quite the opposite. Said there was absolutely no evidence of CAPD and didn't recommend further testing. Ignored that advice, had him tested by a CAPD specialist and just as we strongly suspected, he DOES have CAPD. Interestingly, this is a misdiagnosis that can occur with gifted CAPD kids (according to Drs. Brock and Fernette Eide, "Mislabeled Child" authors). You are wise to have your child tested for this by a trained audiologist, since the common symptoms can be grossly misinterpreted by the more subjective assessments of some psychologists, neuropsychs, etc. With a large family, I've found that the only way we hit the important stuff for each of them is to have a really tight schedule / to-do list - mostly plugging away at the main priorities. Each semester, I have to evaluate the time commitments to various activities, and change things around in order to accommodate everyone's changing needs. For instance, this semester one of my kids is dual-enrolled and needs a ride several times a week, I'm thinking of VT for another one, and we have karate and other outside activities to juggle, :driving:so we'll just have to stick with the basics for a few months. Then in the summer I'm hoping to get back to more interesting topics. We'll see. I tend to operate with relaxed, unschooling approach during the early elementary years, which definitely helps save my sanity. It's just an EXTREMELY busy season of life. You'll figure out how to juggle all the priorities somehow. Then once you figure it out, you have to start all over again a few months down the road... :smilielol5::lol:

MangoMama, what were the symptoms that led you to the developmental optometrist? It seems like he's telling you that dyslexia and ADHD are "perception disorders" rather than visual disorders, and can't be treated with VT. I'm just curious because we're coming at this from the opposite direction - my son has working memory deficiency, is dyslexic but remediated, has improved fine motor skills to the degree that he can thread tiny beads, needles, etc., but when he's reading, he puts his face very close to the book and says the print looks like tiny ants if he's farther away (he does wear glasses). I wonder if vision therapy might still help him, or if he's past the point where it would make much difference. :confused: Re Executive Function, I've found this book really practical and helpful: "Smart But Scattered" http://www.amazon.com/Smart-but-Scattered-Revolutionary-Executive/dp/1593854455/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294422117&sr=1-2

:angelsad2: It's so hard, I know. Try not to feel guilty, though. You're doing what you need to do for now, and hopefully this will provide the catalyst for things to get better. You'll get through this. Praying that things get better for you soon. :grouphug:

I remember going through similar angst way back when, and I can see now that it was totally unnecessary. Since I have a big family and a child in the very middle of the pack with LD's who needs the lion's share of help, I've had to be more of a facilitator and on-the-fly tutor rather than an intensely involved, one-on-one teacher to my other kids. My younger kids are basically "unschooled" until I have time to get them involved with formal school work. A couple of my older kids are in college now (one a sophmore, and the other high school, dual-enrolled) and they are doing really well because I had to focus my limited time on teaching them to be self-starters and independent learners, and this has really paid dividends in college. And the younger kids have absorbed so much from older siblings that they really don't need as much formal instruction - they are learning naturally, all the time. :001_smile: A five yo who is "gifted" is still just a five yo and academics aren't essential at that age. I don't know if my 5 yo is "gifted", but I can see that she picks things up rapidly, so I don't feel any pressure to spend much time on academics with her at this point. If you're having trouble finding time for the more messy, time-consuming projects and experiments, have you considered setting one day a week aside (Friday, maybe?), reducing your older child's workload for that day (maybe just do a math or writing lesson or whatever) and devoting the rest of the time to the hands-on stuff? That's how I squeeze things like that into the schedule, because they were just slipping through the cracks. Good luck - I'm sure you'll figure out how to juggle the things you want to accomplish as you go along. Things change so much from year to year, and it does generally get easier as they get older. :)

Have you tried "The Spell of Words"? http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/details.cfm?seriesonly=155M I'm using it with my son (almost 12). He's dyslexic and can't remember spelling rules either, so his spelling tends to be spotty. :tongue_smilie: The only way he progresses is to repeat, repeat, repeat... Also, the material needs to make sense to him in order to retain it. So after I explain it, he needs to dig in on his own, make mistakes, dig in some more. Then suddenly, all at once, it seems to click and to stick.

I think that's what's going on here. :tongue_smilie:

Gosh, I hope not. My SIL is a lawyer, but I'm hoping to make this go away without legal hassles. :tongue_smilie: The contract says "estimate" (not "blank check! :lol:). Glad to hear it. I have another child I might like to have tested, but not if the costs can't be predetermined. :tongue_smilie:

Yes, this is a "correct" bill, haha! I do have copies of everything, luckily. I'm just wondering how to "put up a big stink" :) - how to actually document that these charges are at least double or triple the norm. :tongue_smilie:

Here are some publishers we've used for homeschooling with good results: EPS http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/ Linguisystems http://www.linguisystems.com/ Gander Publishing http://www.ganderpublishing.com/ Lexia reading software http://lexialearning.com/ Teacher Created Resources (their materials aren't designed with dyslexics in mind, but the formats of some of their workbooks dovetail very well with our curriculum because the lesson are short and don't require much handwriting. :) http://www.teachercreated.com/?AID=3083373&PID=3875436&SID=m1K2 Regarding formal diagnoses.... There is a constellation of neurologial weaknesses that can contribute to dyslexia (weaknesses in working memory, auditory and visual processing, physical coordination). These weaknesses can exist in varying degrees, and a neuropsychologist can theoretically determine the impact in each area (except for CAPD, which can only be identified by an audiologist). It seems as though the labels and descriptions for neurological disorders are in a constant state of flux, but it's still useful to identify the underlying weaknesses through an official evaluation (or through informed observation). When it became apparent that our younger "dyslexic" child was so severely affected that he would never learn to read without specialized intervention, we worked with him at home using Orton-Gillingham, Wilson, LiPS etc. for several years before we pursued a diagnosis and discovered he had CAPD. By then, the reading problems had been conquered, but I thought it was really important to formally identify the CAPD since it impacts so many other aspects of life. We have another child who is similarly effected, but to a less severe degree. He was just tested at 15, once again because of CAPD concerns, and his remediation has been so complete that none of the testing indicated a problem until he finally got to the audiologist (neuropsychologist and speech therapists have evolved as the gatekeepers for CAPD testing, so these evaluations must be supplied in advance) who was the only one with the capability to discern that he does, in fact, have CAPD. The neuropsychologist said there was no evidence of dyslexia or CAPD and didn't recommend CAPD testing. So, as far as testing goes, I think it's only helpful if you need the information. If you already have a handle on what you're dealing with, and are seeing remediation occur with the approach/materials you're using, the testing isn't essential. Good luck. :)

The neuropsychs we were referred to by our insurance company have billed $10,550.00 for services encompassing between five and six hours face time with our son, and some phone interviews (pediatrician, speech therapist, two other adults who work with him, and me). This and and a summary report they emailed to us were the sum total of services provided. The final amount they are billing is quadruple the fee estimate we agreed upon and signed a preliminary contract for. I understand from other posters here that these charges are much higher than the typical fee for these services. Is there some way to prove that these charges are in excess of industry standards and therefore excessive? I have no idea how to go about refuting this, or even what neuropsychs typically charge per hour, but we're being charged nearly $1,000 per hour (rough estimate based on the time they spent directly with our son, and the time to produce a report) and that can't be right. Plus, they jacked up the charges after the fact, without providing any services in addition to what we agreed upon. :tongue_smilie: Is this typical of the way neuropsychs operate? What recourse is there when this happens?