They only addressed the Moro reflex purposely from what I could tell. However, she does appear to have a retained ATNR and one of the exercises they did for the eye tracking and visual motor with the bean bag toss is also one that can be used to help ATNR. However, I don't think it's fully integrated. The only work they did with reflexes was the "Moro walk" which I know is debated as to whether it is really the best method for integrating the Moro reflex. I am not aware of any OT's in the area that are familiar with retained reflexes. I do have video links saved and a book from a class I took while she was in VT so need to pull those out and try to test her myself for now and then make a plan of daily exercises.

Our VT mainly focuses on checking the Moro reflex and then only checks the other reflexes if a student isn't progressing well or if a parent asks (they aren't well trained in reflexes and admit it right out when you ask them about retained reflexes besides the moro). I do think she still has a retained ATNR. Some of the exercises she did in VT would have targeted this, but I do not believe it was enough to integrate the reflex. I should have kept up with it after we ended VT, but didn't and not it's back on my list to work on and put on the front burner again. I looked back at the notes I have and the SLP only did the phonological processing part of the CELF-4. She did not test the grammar section as she felt it wasn't needed based on her work with her the last 3 years and knowing how she communicates and her understanding of what they do together in speech. She did ask a few specific grammar questions from the test in a couple areas that they hadn't discussed during speech sessions to double check areas she wasn't familiar with specific to DD, but those were fine she said (she gave me an example and I didn't write it down so don't remember it now). She did the vocab testing to for the sake of the psych but had not concerns about vocab with DD. I asked to test at the sentence level as well and so she did that with the TACL-3 as well as the additional vocab section on that same test. As for word retrieval issues, I will look it up to understand it more, but sometimes DD does struggle with word retrieval. I know in the WISC there were a few words that she told me she knew the meaning of the words but couldn't think of how to explain it. When she has to explain something that she is emotional about, she struggles to find the right words often (emotional as in sad, hurt, or similar - not necessarily when she is angry). On the other hand, she can talk for a hour or two straight with little interjection needed from whomever she is talking with. I'm not sure what the contrast of those behaviors mean related to word retrieval though. The psych didn't mention anything about word retrieval rate so I'm guessing it wasn't tested. How do you combine that with RAN? Rather than just RAN practice with colors, letters, and numbers, would it be adding categories of words like animals, or other groups of words as well with the RAN practicing?

I only have a few minutes so will have to reply more this evening. DD did go through vision therapy 2 years ago and the recent check said her vision is still on track. The doc noticed that her eyes very slightly jumped in tracking (I think near the midline), but not enough that would warrant more vision therapy. I actually think that the VT she had in the past had a big impact on how she scored in perceptual reasoning and working memory because her visual perceptual scores were well below other kids her age before VT. I'm not convinced that there are also not more retained reflexes, but there doesn't appear to be anyone in the area well trained in this area to evaluate this. The VT center can check for some, but the COVD doc said that if he knew of someone trained in this area, they would refer patients out rather than checking themselves for retained reflexes. She did have an OT eval last week, but it wasn't a full eval as we initially requested an eval for handwriting problems so that is where the OT focused. The OT called her a "curiosity" as she had all the needed visual perceptual skills needed for handwriting, but she could see the huge struggle. At the end when I was dealing with some paperwork, the OT had her to a few gross motor skills and said that while DD has been able to do a lot of the gross motor skills, she struggled with them. She was going to put in her report that we need some OT sessions, but it's a long wait to actually get it. The OT wondered if there could be something sensory adding to any struggles, but didn't do a full eval to know. In the mean time, she told me to have DD do some gross motor work before doing any fine motor work and to limit handwriting to around 10 min a day and look into starting to teach her typing now. I have Dyslexic Advantage on the shelf and need to pull it out again. I got through 3/4 of it before life got a little crazy and I didn't get back to it. I also realized last night that I have the book Bright Kids Who Can't Keep Up on the shelf which is all about processing speed so will plan to read that as well. I will print off your RAN pages I've seen you link before. Does working on rapid naming help improve processing speed overall or just in the specific areas practiced? I will also find the thread about the IM work that Heathermomster shared in the past. I remember seeing it a few times. As for picture vocabulary, is any picture dictionary good or are there specific ones better for teaching this? They didn't mention anything about ADHD at the meeting, but we have another appointment with a private developmental pediatrician in a month that sent us paperwork to fill out related to that.

I met with a few people at the school today regarding DD8 and the testing they did over the last two months (at my request). I don't have the official report with all the scores, but some of the scores or notes about where she fell on some of the testing. I know the school doesn't use the term dyslexia and that dyslexia is one of the things that falls under SLD reading. I am trying to understand if it is in fact dyslexia or something else causing the SLD reading. When I read about dyslexia, I feel like the description fits her well, but I'm no expert so second guess myself. Here is what I have so far: WISC (I don't know which version) *Verbal comprehension 93 - 32nd percentile - low average Perceptual reasoning 110 - 75th percentile - high average Working memory 110 - 75th percentile - high average Processing speed 75 - 5th percentile - below average Full scale - 97 - 42nd percentile GAI - 101 - 53rd percentile *The school psych thought that her processing speed may have lowered her score here based on a few things in the testing. TOLD - P:3 (I don't have the exact scores yet on these - just dots on a bell curve) Picture vocabulary - approx 85 - low average Oral vocabulary - approx 112 - high average TACL - 3 Vocabulary - 115 - high average Elaborated phrases and sentences - 115 high average CTOPP-2 (I don't have exact scores, just dots on a bell curve so the amounts below are close, but may differ from actual slightly) Ellison and Blending words - 90 - low average Phoneme Isolation - 100 - average Memory for Digits - 120 - above average Non word repetition - 115 - high average Rapid digit naming - 84 - below average Rapid Letter naming - 60 - less than 1 percentile For background, we have done a LOT of phonics work and phonemic awareness the last 3.5 years (1 yr PS, 1 year LOE, 1.5 yrs AAR). She has also been in speech articulation for 3.5 years and parts of the speech work also worked with phonemic awareness. She used to mix up syllables in words a lot, but we have done a lot of work on that and she does much better than she used to when saying multi syllable words. We did start on Barton 3 weeks ago after the testing was done or just about done (I think a small part of the CTOPP hadn't been administered when I started Barton 1). We are in lesson 3 in Barton currently. Sometimes I look at a lesson and think she will go through it quickly, but then something trips her up and we end up doing a lot of the extra practice as well. Even though the report I saw today said her phonological processing was "adequate" for her age, I still see some struggles in Barton (today in the first part of lesson 3 she struggled correctly breaking apart "il" within a nonsense word and in another combination she kept wanting to add a 4th sound even though she pulled down three tiles. I guess my point in that is that even though the SLP that did the testing said that her tested showed phonological processing was adequate, I feel like we have worked so much on this that what we are doing in Barton shouldn't be so hard. Barton tires her out as well so I know her brain is working hard. Once in a while she will mix up the correct sounds in the wrong order when it comes to the "touch and say" the tiles portion. In all this, I am trying to understand if it would be good to continue to Barton that she is dyslexic and does need this, or is there something else besides dyslexia causing the reading problems that I shouldn't continue to spend the money on Barton and need to invest time and resources elsewhere. Of course the school offered to let her come in to work with a reading specialist from the resource room 30 min a day each day of the week, but they don't have anyone OG trained until the 5th grade level (that person uses Wilson). The biggest thing they said is that she qualifies for SLD reading (in basic reading, reading fluency, and reading comprehension) and the low processing speed was an issue. The low processing speed was although thought to have influenced the low fluency scores in math and writing as well. If she were in a classroom, the types of accommodations they would put in an IEP were things like extra time on tests, not having to complete as many math problems on a sheet if she knew and understood the concepts, being allowed audio books and eventually maybe dictation software, less writing requirements, and I think a few other ideas were thrown out there. Sorry this is so long. Now that I have some numbers, I'm just trying to figure out the best thing for DD right now and you all are so much more experienced and understand these more than I do at this point. ETA: The psych did mention that he noticed with reading that she struggled with blending words she sounded out, she would both add or delete sounds in unknown words that she sounded out (he couldn't tell if it was a specific pattern), when she had a picture with something to read, she read better (contextual clues) than when she did with cold reading and no pictures. He didn't notice her reversing sounds within a word, but in our reading at home I have only seen that in words like was/saw, on/no, stop/spot, and other words with the same letters but in a different order. She also was only 2 points away from qualifying with a SLD writing. They said anything equal to or lower than 83 in the academic areas qualified as a severe discrepancy. Overall written expression was 85 and the 15th percentile with writing fluency at 77 in the 6th percentile and writing samples at 92 in the 30th percentile. Getting her thoughts on the paper was very slow and hard for her. Copywork is very hard for her as well.

Thank you for all the ideas. I will check them out more.

Thanks. I've not heard of this. I will check it out.

Thank you. We're using Science in the Beginning this year with just my 2nd grader (sometimes my Pre-K joins in for experiments but doesn't usually stick around for the reading). I was nervous to go onto Science in the Ancient World since I was seeing mixed reviews. Is it easy for your younger one to jump into that book not having done other science in the past? Also, do you feel like it stays long enough on a topic before moving to a different area of science in history?

Is there a hands-on science curriculum that could work well for both a kinder and 3rd grader together or is that too large of a gap?

I know this is old, but I was wondering what you decided on in this area. Did you continue to combine these two curriculum for this school year?

:grouphug: I agree with the others that you are handling this with grace and strength. I'm sorry you're going through this.

I haven't looked much into Cogmed to answer specifically about age 8 with that program, but I know from other readings (the only one I can remember off the top of my head is the book Smart Moves: Why Learning is not all in your Head, but I know I've read other materials that discussed this as well) I have read that there is a lot of brain development and vision development that happens near that age. Even understanding logic better changes around that age. I remember Smart Moves: Why Learning is Not All In Your Head discussing how the brain processing images from electronic screens differently before age 8 as well. I know I can see a big difference in what my DD can handle or understand at different levels now at age 8 than what she could even at age 6. She still struggles with attention though and I don't know if her attention has improved at all now vs. a year or two ago. Your DD sounds similar to mine with visual memory (based on here and another thread). She can remember great details of pictures (better than me) and other things in 3D or that she can visualize in 3D. However, remembering printed letters in 2D is a completely different story (like in copywork or even remembering which direction a letter or number is supposed to face). I remember something about this discussed in the Dyslexic Advantage in their M strength section, but don't remember enough specifics to explain it (I just remember thinking that they were explaining my DD). I'm not assuming or suggesting that your DD has dyslexia, that book was just the first place that I read something that talked about remembering 3D vs 2D images differently and it helped me understand DD better with some of her struggles in that area and it is something I will go back and read again in the near future. I don't have any advice. I am following along still learning and trying to find more options for my DD as well.

Sorry, I just realized that your DD was only 6. What you described in copy work reminded me of my DD8 and Susan Barton's description of the laborious copy work in a video recently. I don't know what is or is not normal for a 6 year old though. Hopefully others will be better help than me in this area for you.

There is a quick online placement test for the 2nd edition on the Rightstart website. IIRC, before you start in B they want the child to be able to do addition facts up to 10. We went through only part of A 2nd edition before starting B 2nd edition the next school year and had no problems going into B without having completed A.

You may want to search the boards to read more about dysgraphia or start a different thread with dysgraphia or copy work in your title. I believe it is more involved than just working memory and you may get more help in that direction in a thread specific to that. ETA: my DD is 8.

Anna's Mom, a couple other things our VT did with visual working memory is teach DD how to visualize certain things. They worked on anything from studying a picture for a certain length of time and then she would tell the therapist every detail she could remember, to learning to visualize sight words and then spelling them certain ways. With a sight word, she would have her visualize the word and then spell it forwards then backwards, and then inside out (i.e. "Would" inside out = "wdolu"). DD was 6 at the time so I don't remember them going past a 4 letter word spelled inside out. Once she could do that with a word, then she had to do the same thing but only say a letter each time she touched a swinging ball. All that said, those exercises did help her visual memory, but when it comes to copy work she still can only copy 1-2 letters at a time. For her, combining not just remembering the letters but also how to form them, which direction the letters face, how to space them on the paper, etc. present a whole new list of challenges and impact how many she can remember at once.

This link has a list of games that can be used for visual memory. I imagine that you could add in components to build auditory memory, but I am too new at this to give a recommendation on how to combine them. http://www.thevisiontherapycenter.com/discovering-vision-therapy/95-vision-friendly-holiday-gift-ideas-for-you-and-your-family?utm_campaign=news-release&utm_source=hs_email&utm_medium=email&utm_content=15380886&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_IRl1ZaHfz-rwhG6WEqCvzS8ixYXZtjdMRyG15HX4X0mgds83th_-HMtKm94wYH3hTQwgiWXxN8WGtOIQdOhW9OsDJlA&_hsmi=15380886

Following along. I was looking at this earlier in the week and wondering about this test.

I know I am not Misty, but you may not be seeing the game because Amazon is out of stock right now. I have had it in my cart the past week or two and it looks like I missed out. This is the game though. http://thinkfun.com/products/distraction/

Bumping this up in case someone has heard more now. I am interested in this as well.

Thanks. I plan to call the peds office this afternoon about a referral. I appreciate all the help and tips.

When DD started learning the difference between /f/ and voiceless /th/ in speech last year, she could not hear the difference between the two. She only could tell the difference by watching someone's mouth. She can often tell the difference now. I thought she could always tell the difference after the speech work, but last month learned that she never knew that "both" ended in a /th/ and not /f/ and couldn't hear the difference. After grocery shopping, she asked me if it was "beef" or "beeth" and said she wasn't sure if she was hearing it right. I never thought about the possibility of that being related to a potential hearing loss before. Her mishearing the /k/ sound for /t/ recently too is something I never thought about actual hearing loss potential either. As for testing hearing, I may need to get a referral from our pediatrician. I can see them offering to run their in clinic hearing screening that they do with some well-child checks. Does that screening actually catch all hearing issues? Is it good to try that, or just say, "thanks, but I'd rather just check it at an audiologist's office"?

This is all interesting with the audiologists testing as well. Could some of the testing by an audiologist explain why DD mishears the phonemes in some words? Like hearing backing instead of batting or beeth instead of beef? I told DH yesterday that I was going to bring up auditory processing concerns for my 5 year old at her well child check this month. I wondered about it for DD8 before, but then thought maybe it was other things that I was seeing. I have to say that the more I learn about child development and it's impact on learning, the more complex I realize it is, and the more I realize how little I really know.

Thank you! Yes, that helps.

Are there any other areas I should bring up if the psych does bring them up related to comprehension and language? Comprehension was in the 5th percentile.

Does the CELF deal with auditory processing? I know I'm going to get push back from the SLP if I request more from her and may need to address it with the psych when we do the next portion of IQ testing next week. The SLP may not know about the comprehension problems. The psych suspected that her comprehension problems were because of the difficulty she had even reading that portion of the exam. Is there something I can do at home related to this that may show more why they should test more that I can discuss with them when I see them next week? Can the school come back and just refuse to do additional testing with a reason why? The fatigue is huge and I know we need to get to the bottom of why. I checked with our state universities and it doesn't appear that they offer discounted services. I know there is a local place that can run the hearing and APD scan, but have to find out if we need a referral and if our insurance will cover any. I've heard about some pretty large bills from that place (and yes, it is associated with a hospital).