I think the reason people get this opinion that "someone is blaming the victim" is because the idea of shame was brought up at all. The idea of her being ashamed was brought up. Which meanswe still live in a society that believes she was to blame.

I was thinking that the difference was something along these lines...shame is a feeling about the worth of the person which is different than feeling guilty about a particular action. But I could be wrong.

We serve from the pots and pans on the stove. As another poster mentioned we have a small table so the serving bowls would just get in the way.

.

Me too! This is my dream!

Dd got her first at 3 but it wasn't available to her at will until she was almost 5. I'm wanting to get Kaya for dd this year. I love the dolls! I want to get one for myself!

Like I said to a previous poster, I don't pretend to know the answer to EVERY situation. However, the situation of a woman raping a man with her vagina is very rare. The most common is a penetration type situation, male or female. And more often than not, "boys will be boys" is the common answer. And even more common is "she shouldn't have dressed that way". Those attitudes are sending us backwards.

That's not what I meant to do. I was confused by the previous posters comments. I don't pretend to know the answer to every situation. But the most common situation is that a man violates a woman. And I don't believe that mutual drunkenness should even be considered. In those situation I believe the burden should fall to the penetrator.

My original statement was penetrator. And I was careful to say it that way because I know that men can be victims too. That's why I said the penetrator has the burden to make sure they aren't committing a crime.

If woman were the more common natural aggressors then we would be talking about protecting men. This is laughable. "vaginas enveloping penis'".

She had to let him in?! Ummmm.....no she doesn't. That's why this is an issue to begin with?

Well I do. I think it's been about long enough that we've had to teach our daughters to protect themselves. And it's about time we told our sons to keep their penis in their pants if alcohols involved. There should be a greater burden on men for a change.

Yes I am suggesting that. In fact, I'm stating it. One person is being penetrated and another is doing the penetrating. The penetrator has a responsibility to make sure they aren't committing a crime.

.

The reason I don't like talking about mutually drunk situations is because it implies both people are on an equal level. The person doing the penetrating should always be responsible for making sure a crime isn't being committed.

I was having this conversation with a friend. Our childhoods would be considered "free range". Not because our parents ascribed to that philosophy for our well being. We had "free range" freedoms because our parents didn't care enough to be bothered. I believe that my freedoms as a child really shaped and helped me mature as an adult. I was in and out of neighbors houses. I ride my bike all day through town and I freely explored any and all woods. And I swam in nearby creeks occasionally. Those experiences gave me a lot of knowledge and maturity. However, I don't and will not ascribe to that lifestyle. I have horrible and almost non-existent relationships with my parents. My running around freely wasn't for my benefit. It was a symptom of a dysfunctional family dynamic. I haven't ever met a family who allowed this type of free play who also cultivated the types of relationships I desire to have with my children. They probably exist. I just haven't met them. I also don't agree with the idea that the news media sensationalism is the reason parents are afraid. Yes the news media puts the stories out there, but they don't create child abductions, child rapists, and child pornographers. Have those statistics gone down? So the question is...how do you allow "free play" in this society? I go outside with my kids and watch them play. We try to go outside everyday and they play a lot inside. But they will never have the experiences I had as a kid. The risk is too high.

I've been known to tell my kids I was disappointed in certain behaviors. And now I'm rethinking that as a proper teaching technique after being a part of this thread.

You're questioning of whether it was actually classified as rape is why we're having this conversation at all. They penetrated her. A rape is a rape is a rape. They deserve the book thrown at them. These ideas that her choices "put her in this bad situation" are disgusting. "This bad situation" was a humiliating betrayal and criminal offense. Her actions before "this bad situation" have nothing to do with what those boys did to her that night and the following days.

.

I think a very good point to take away from this debate is that slut/victim shaming is still alive and well. Until it isn't, boys like this will never be made to take full responsibility for their crimes. There will always be those who blame the victim.

I would say if you aren't married to someone or you haven't been in a long term relationship with someone you better not have sex them if there's alcohol involved.

Just to clarify? I can't say anything about these being moral issues in regards to people believing she should be ashamed and not criminal issues as in what the boys did?

This is irrelevant. This isn't the issue at hand.

Her choice to drink alcohol as a minor was illegal. You're correct. I'm not debating that. What her parents thought about her choice of attire or her choice of friends is to be determined. However, those issues have nothing to do with her rape.