That is definitely not what I was saying. How awful and horrifying. I'm sorry if anyone took it that way I honestly never heard such a thing. My neighborhood/school was about 75% "catholic". The majority of these kids /families did not attend mass regularly, and certainly had no personal understanding of the tenants of the Nicene creed. It was easier to be catholic than not and have a place where you could get married & buried (though a lot didn't get married there, I imagine they didn't want to attend classes). Today I live in an area with the opposite percentage. The vast majority of Catholics I know well today are devout and I am certain (as one can be about another human being) that they are Christians. It's the Protestants that tend to not know what they supposedly believe, and have a church just for holidays and to be married and buried at. I personally believe that there are a lot of so called "Christians" of all stripes, that really aren't Christians. Sounds like many of you have suffered at their hands. It is truly heartbreaking for you and them.

Most evangelicals I know would be shocked to hear that Catholics would have an issue with that statement. I certainly didn't realize it prior to this thread. (I did know about the sola scriptura objection.). But I assumed it was considered literal and inerrant, as interpreted by the church of course.

Most of these people only attended mass at Christmas and occasionally Easter. Some of them did know that that is what the church believed (Definitely not all of them) but didn't really believe it themselves. However since they were Christened and took first communion they clearly declared themselves Catholic. That was out east where this was prevalent. Now I am in the Midwest and I find the same thing to be prevalent in Protestant denominations. That is why I said I know Catholics who are Christians, not because Catholicism isn't Christian, but because I find so many people of all denominations who don't actually understand the definition of a Christian. I would hazard to guess that some of the ones in these uber exclusive groups also don't understand the definition, since they seem pretty short on the concept of grace. Certainly any group that specifically declares you are not a Christian because you don't agree with every point of their detailed statement of faith doesn't get it. Although I could see a group saying they are Christian, having an SoF, but not at all meaning to say you are not a Christian just because you disagree with it.

Yes, that is exactly it. thank you for helping me make it clearer. :) I know many many people who will clearly declare that they are baptist, Lutheran, catholic whatever...but if you ask them if they personally believe things that are directly from the Nicene creed, they will say no. When I was younger most of these people were catholic (because the majority of the people I knew were catholic). I live in a different place now and I find that most of the people I meet who don't personally believe the Nicene creed, but declare a Christian faith are Protestant, since i am in a majority protestant area. Sadly it is an awful lot of people. Oh but very few of these people are homeschoolers. Maybe groups should use the Nicene creed as a statement of faith. But I still wouldn't join because I would like to be w/ non Christians as well. ;)

That does suck. I am in a low regulation state, so I had not thought of this issue. Oh and I avoid homeschooling conventions as well. But am blessed with a large homeschooling community that embraces a wide variety of curriculum. And I really don't have any experience with the dynamics of the south. I am really sorry.

I agree that is ridiculous.

To clarify, I know Catholics who are Christians, baptists who are Christians, Lutherans who are Christians, Mennonites who are Christians etc... I don't believe you are any less or more likely to be a Christian if you are catholic than if you are baptist etc....I was speaking of Christianity as a personal choice not a cultural identity. I grew up in an area that was majority catholic. The only people who taught me that some Catholics are not Christians by personal choice were people who identified as Catholics themselves. Just as the people who taught me that many Catholics are Christians by personal choice are Catholic as well.

Personally I would prefer Christian homeschool groups didn't exist period. I am all for homeschool groups made up of Christians, but I believe Christians are to be involved with all the wider world and not insular. I want to teach my children how to be discerning and deal with different viewpoints from a young age. However I have many friends who are kind loving people who disagree with me and I hate to think that people think they are being mean by wanting to only allow very specific influences in their lives. At far as calling something a Protestant group. FWIW I would never call myself a protestant, and I don't think many people self identify as "Protestant". I certainly would never join any type of group that declared they were Protestant and in the title. I may use Protestant as an adjective to describe a specific church, but not a person. I don't know if this makes sense. I have met Catholics who are young earth and believe in the Authority of scripture, and to say Protestant would seem to be intentionally exclusive. As for what such a group should call themselves it is tricky. I am assuming that most of these groups believe that Christian is a personal rather than corporate term. For many whether or not you are a Christian is not based on church membership or lack thereof. I think the default is to say we are Christians and this is our SoF. I do agree that to say "all Christian faiths welcome" may be misleading. It is also a major paradigm shift for me. I don't necessarily agree with my pastor on all points of Bible interpretation, so the idea that someone who is catholic would be unable to sign such a SoF simply based on being catholic is hard to wrap my head around. And I do want to clarify, I grew up in an area that was majority Catholic. I then lived for a few years in California w/ a little bit of everything from everywhere. I now live in an midwestern area with a fairly broad mix. I have never lived down south where I understand the dynamics are quite different, so there may be a lot of blatant bias I do not see. ( oh and BTW when I was referring to a private Christian school I meant i would assume a SoF would be required of the teachers not the attenders)

It concerns me that such statements of faith are viewed as attempts to "weed" out Catholics and other religions. Why are they not viewed as statement of faiths and critical truths that are extremely important to members of the group? If I were convicted to homeschool for religious reasons and attended a coop where others were teaching my children with a religious perspective, then I would expect such a statement of faith to be signed. If i sent my child to private Christian school i would expect a similar statement. Our Sunday school teachers at church are required to sign something similar (although it didn't occur to us to say 66 books or anything) It have been in groups with Catholics who were Christians and they didn't seem to object to those statements. hmmm..... I would guess you could say that my doctrinal beliefs follow a non-denominational, anabaptist perspective. I would like to note that non-denominational does not mean inter-denominational. So if you are denominational, someone who is non-denominational would have doctrinal differences. If a group of catholic families started a homeschool group and had a SofF that said "we hold sacred the authority of the pope and sacraments of the Catholic Church". I wouldn't be able to sign your SoF, but I wouldn't think that you were trying to weed me out or exclude me. It really saddens me that so many people are hurt by statements of faith. It breaks my heart. I am sure that there are those out there, that use them in mean and nasty ways. But I also know that there are many out there that simply wish to immerse their children in what they believe is Biblical truth through academic subjects. Wouldn't you rather they be honest and clear about their purpose and intentions upfront so you can find a group where you do fit? BTW I would not likely join a homeschool group with a SoF because that is not my educational philosophy or purpose.

From the op I would have said no. But based on your explanation, yes! If you are basically "baby-sitting" someone else's kids I would not drastically change my school plan.

This has been an interesting read. I feel that in general homeschoolers are a broad group, with a wide variety of people so I would not expect to get along with everyone or every group, just like in the rest of my life. I have never expected to fit in and have generally been happy with being different so being excluded is a small blip on my radar. We have a large homeschooling community in our area. I know most of them through the 2 churches we are involved in and our 4H program. The 4H program has a huge variety of people, (homeschoolers and non-homeschoolers) so people who actively participate are generally inclusive types overall. Of course the people at our churches I am generally comfortable with as our core life beliefs jibe even if our educational philosophies don't. I do have some concerns about finding an actual homeschool group if I would choose to look for one. In online homeschool communities I have felt like an odd duck at times. I do not homeschool "for religious reasons" but my Christian faith permeates every aspect of my life. So I generally don't prefer to use Christian materials unless they have some separate educational superiority. This has made me feel a bit odd on a Christian homeschooling board I am involved in. Which has made me hesitant about looking into Christian homeschooling co-ops. On the other hand I have been seriously scoffed at on this board for allowing my Christian beliefs to influence my academic views (basically in science, but I imagine my historical perspective would be horrifying to some as well :). So I am somewhat concerned that I would be unacceptable to secular homeschool groups as well. There are so many Christian homeschool groups it might be difficult to find secular groups that aren't "anti-Christian". At this point we aren't seeking a homeschooling group. We'll probably go the church youth groups and 4H route that many seem to choose in our area. Personally I don't have a problem with people wanting their group to have a certain exclusivity based on religion, academics etc.... In the rest of life people gather based on similar preferences and beliefs too. I do have issues with people being rude, unkind, and also following the same exclusivity in all their life activities. But it is sad for them not so much for me.

Is this usually in February? If so I need to put it on my calendar for next year. And I guess we should get a bird feeder so we have something to count :). February isn't our busiest time of yr for birds.

Well we are frugal and have always lived on less than we make so there is always money available. However, in our district (in IL) public school is not free. Registration, book rental, and workbook cost is well over $100. Once you add in the activity fee, p.e. uniform, teachers gifts, class parties etc...it is definitely in the $200 range or more (this is for k-5, it gets more expensive as you get to middle school/high school) so I figure I get about $200 per student for curriculum. I probably spend less than that. School supplies we would have to buy anyway. But I do suggest to family and friends that craft supplies, fun workbooks etc... make good birthday gifts. We also recommend specific "fun" school books (like science encyclopedias, magic school bus) as birthday gifts. We have a used curriculum store. We have a lot of homeschoolers in our area so I shop garage sales for books and curriculum as well. I have found some great deals (SOTW 1 book and activity book, brand new for $10!)

Yes! In ps in my area they don't do a lot of history etc... In k. Social studies involves "people in the neighborhood" understanding very basic geography (town, city, mountain, other countries exist etc...) learning about the existence of other cultures and traditions/holidays, and that the past exists. I find this happens in my home without a planned history program. Basically if the ker gets a rough idea that the world exists beyond them and before they existed, and that people are interdependent, you've covered the gist of K "history"

I don't use anything formal with my 3 y/o. She has a stack of inexpensive workbooks she can work in during school time, or do whatever else she wants to do. She listens to many of the lessons I do with her big sister, paticipates somewhat in games and activities. I don't intend to do formal prek with her next year either. She is a bit precocious and catches on quick. so if she is ready for anything I do have k stuff waiting in the wings (handwriting workbook, math, phonics etc...). I didn't do any formal curriculum with my current ker ( she did do lots of workbooks informally) and she is on track or ahead in everything. (I did try FIAR briefly but it didn't work for us, we didn't enjoy many of the book selections).

So much helpful info. Thank you all. I am pretty good about skipping problems if they become busy work etc.. My dd is very analytical, and even though she might fly through it to some degree I think she would enjoy an incremental approach. It would probably appeal to her very orderly nature.

Thanks, that blog post was very helpful! I do think just doing math stuff for a bit w/o curriculum will be a good option for the next few months anyway

Just looked it up. Looks interesting, but confusing as to how to figure out where to start, would it work as a complete program?

Thanks for your responses. I have been using them to think about it. She actually is pretty good with the math concepts. She can explain how to do it. It is more that she gets frustrated with the numbers. Remembering the difference between "twelve and twenty" in speaking, transposing numbers, and having a terrible time memorizing her math facts. Some of it may be related to the fact that she isn't a fluent reader and still struggles abit with directionality and left to right progression, in math as well as reading. She is not quite 5 1/2 y/o so I think this is more a developmental thing as opposed to some long term problem, she is making good progress in it in her reading. After my OP I realized it is actually the 1b HIG(us edition) that I have right now. It really doesn't give any help for these issues. I have actually been sitting reading it to see if it seems that it would help. She enjoys manipulatives for a short period of time. The ideas i come up with dont seem to differ greatly from the HIG. She usually gets that part right away. She has no problem demonstrating all the concepts on manipulatives. After doing it right several times though she gets bored and would like to move on. I think I am considering switching to mm more for my sanity and cost effectiveness. I am the one who has a hard time with using 3 different books. I am a natural teacher, and teachers guide adapter/avoider. I also like things streamlined as much as possible since I am not good at keeping track of all the details. I am also very frugal and forsee possibly flying through the curriculum a bit once she gets some of the issues down. Plus I have another dd coming up, having 3 "yrs" on a CD ROM sounds wonderful. I might just finish off this year working on math facts, manipulatives, and play/games. Then start next year w/ MM grades 1-3. (We actually school year round sort of, so next year would be more "when she can read better", which could be april or august etc...) Just going as far as we go by chapter testing through it to see what we need to work on. She loves the SM textbooks so we could read through those the rest of "this year" too. I have a 2a textbook I picked up used.

Cumbersome and wordy describes the U.S. edition I have exactly. I am glad to hear there may be a difference. I was starting to think I was seriously missing something. There is no novel or radical teaching method that I have seen yet. (We are only in 1b though). It also doesn't seem to go along with the textbook all that well.

My Ker is mathy. But I feel like she is a bit all over the place. We have done Singapore 1A and are currently in 1B, but I don't feel like she is always getting it. And I don't use the HIG's I am very mathy as well, but the classic scattered/vague gifted type. I had the 1A HIG and rarely used it. Having 3 separate books (or more) to reference for a math lesson is a bit cumbersome for me, I am not very good at following teachers guides. I am also on a budget. MM just looks so nice and streamlined, I can even get 3 "years" on 1 download for less than the cost of 1 yr of Singapore. I know this sounds a bit scattered. But I am thinking I could buy the 3 "year" download, and then diagnostically chapter test her through 1a and 1b to cover the ground I feel like we are shaky on, then move on to 2a as she is ready. And I don't have to plan on new curriculum untill we finish year 3. (It also appears that she can do some of the worksheets on the computer to help with the writing output issue. ) Am I understanding how this works correctly? Does MM work for a mathy kid? BTW I would still be willing to supplement extras, I just want a more streamlined way to get the foundation.

I am a PT, though I dont specialize in backs, but I definitely think you should switch PT's. glad you have a new appointment. There are a lot of different approaches to treating back pain. For discs I generally prefer a Mackenzie approach, which is not what your current PT is doing. (Mackenzie in your case would involve something lying on your stomach.) If you have herniated discs that don't respond, surgery can really help. Your therapist should be giving you work to do at home, and modify that regimen most visits. they should explain the changes you should be feeling (ie. centralizing pain) They should instruct you on body mechanics and posture as well. It takes time to recover completely, but after 6visits, they/you should be able to identify some improvement

I have thought about this a lot, and I have come to an epiphany of sorts. I am certain my daughter would behave so much better in an outside classroom. Her Sunday school and Awana teachers adore her. This used to bother me, would she be better off in school? But then I considered what is the point. I already know she is good at behaving for an authority figure in public. She really doesn't need more practice at this. There is no correlation to that skill and her learning more or having a better education. Our homeschool has 2 advantages that actually contribute to this "whiny" behavior, appropriate challenge and continuous direct assessment. In direct teaching in public school each individual child is only required to answer at most 4% of the oral questions. Written work is often completed right or wrong then returned at a later time. There really is a lot less pressure to actually perform academically on a day to day basis in a public school. But easy isn't always better. My daughter is building internal motivation, and coping skills, which I believe will serve her better as a grown up. The hard stuff, challenging stuff, is what they really need to learn. Your child is also learning how to deal with intimate family relationships, a skill that will serve her well as an adult. Think of it like math. If your child was could easily complete her math book without any intervention on your part, you would skip it and move on to the next one. Sounds like your child doesn't need an outside teacher, that would be too easy ;)

http://www.amazon.com/Tracey-Malletts-Pregnancy-System-Mallett/dp/B000F1IO34 Especially if you are focusing on toning

We combine adults and children for a Christmas program since we only have a small group of children.