Juniper
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Posts posted by Juniper
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We just got reports back as well. Oldest got straight A's, twins were a mix of A's and B's, and youngest was straight A's. I am content. :)
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I have a real problem with the idea that conditioned women can't give consent but men can. In theory, this is a community where everyone is being conditioned. Community conditioning requires perpetuating it to others and self in the community, but only the males are held accountable for it.
No woman is having any kind of an affair with a guy bc she just can't help herself.
I'm willing to believe he is a dirtbag, but I see nothing to make me think any higher of her.
I tend to think he is an egotistical turd.
The best I can say is the gal had bad taste in men.When someone has your husband, your in-laws, your children, your livlihood, your health insurance, community, and to go against is to be labeled a Jezebel, divisive, unsubmissive (and when you are conditioned that those things are equal to losing your salvation and being hated by God), you are not an equal able to freely consent to a relationship.
Again, most of that is from my situation, but from what I am hearing (and no I will not share sources) the women in question's family may have been finacially dependent on VF. That is the insidiousness of it. First they get your finances, then your family, then your future becomes enmeshed with their success.
To leave, to say "No," means to regect the God you have come to know. You stand on the edge of a knife and in the panic of that moment you slip onto the side of keeping everything you know intact.....and that is when you are truly caught, because now they have your shame.
.....and who will believe you are a victim? After all, you are an adult and could have said, "No." :( -
It is very disheartening to read the posts. Who are any of us to cast the first stone or are we all perfect? We also can't judge others motives or lives. We are only responsible for ourselves in the end. I personally feel bad for his Savior and what this has done to him.
Why don't you pray instead of casting stones isn't that what Jesus would do???This doesn't even make sense! "Feel bad for his Savior and what this has done to him?" Huh? :(
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Here is my take.
As part of a study of patriarchial movements for a local church that had had an unfortunate history of severe legalism and then saw the light and wanted to move away from that life, I helped them research VF, ATI, and other such patriarchial + dominionist theology organizations and the outcomes on the lives of the families dedicated to them. Normally, I'm a live and let live kind of person. In the absence of abuse, between consenting adults do whatever the heck you want, seriously...we need some more privacy in this nation for the most part, and let consenting adults do what they are going to do so long as NO ONE is victimized.. I have issues when it crosses the line into abusing kids. What I found was a shock.
Faith
I edited out the body for space sake. ;) Thank you for being willing to put that all out there. Sometimes I hesitate to comment myself as survivor of a pastor that espoused similar beliefs and ruled by similar means, because I fear other will just see me as a victim or projecting. (which I probably do both of, ut it doesn't make it any less true.) :)
The one issue I have been thinking about today is his wife. From what I can gather, she is actually pretty well educated herself and both a victim and perpatrator in her own right. It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out for her and what type of woman she trully is.
One of the most difficult things for me to come to terms with was not how a "man" could do these types of things, but how women could support and subjugate other women to it. I know how hard it was for me to come to grips with reality. I get that they are victims as well, but sometimes...if I am completely honest....it is the women that make me angry! It is also the area I still struggle to forgive myself for.
I still get messages from young girls I "mentored" pleading with me to "come back to God" and stop leading my family astray. I watch as the same young women have become the next generation of minister's wives and I feel ashamed.
If suspicions are true and the other woman in this Douglas Phillips affair is the "high ranking" one that is being hinted at I feel for her.You get sucked in wanting to serve the God you love, change the world, and build up the younger generation...only to reap a harvest sorrow and shame.
Obviously, I am feeling a bet melancholy today. It will pass. ;)
Again, thank you for taking the time to write what you have! .....and for the love of all things good, would someone tell me how to spell check on the new boards?!!!! -
I totally agree that he is most definitely at fault and should be able to say "no" period. OTOH I think women who behave this way are just as guilty. I could never ever imagine myself a home wrecker period.
I would agree with you if they were on equal footing. If you do some research on this man and the amount of force he is willing to use against those who simply say somethng he doesn't like to one of his church leadership, it will be clear that even if this women does not realize it now she may one day realize she was not in a position to freely regect his advances.
Honestly, if Vision Forum has a lick of legal sense they will settle with her before she fully grasps what has happened. Before she does things like sue for millions and writes her tell all book.
I will say this for the denomination I was in. They were quick to offer me all the help I needed (providing unlimited counseling by an outside party, documentation, relocation and even physical protection), and acknowledged the wrong done. This was the main reason I did not take the whole denom to court like my lawyers suggested.Edited to add- I forgot the Douglas Phillips had previously been a lawyer. That could make this situation worse for him. On a few fronts. Potential fear of legal reprecussions if she said no and the fact that he should have known better!
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Interesting because I read it as genuine. I guess if you're looking for something you will find it.
This might shed some light on why many of us feel the tone is Smarmy and very not genuine. http://jensgems.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/the-heavy-burden-of-doug-phillips-legalism-leads-to-his-resignation-from-vision-forum/
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Can you explain what you mean by saying she cannot consent to a relationship with him.
If he was in a place of perceived power, (spiritually, finacially or socially), and she was a member of his church, official volunteer or an employee of some other arm of his buisness, than she will be in a position to press charges of sexual assault under the same rules that govern teachers from sleeping with students, therapists from sleeping with clients and Doctors from sleeping with patients.
There is less legal precendence (than with Drs, teachers and therapists) as many victims feel so much shame and do not get the support they need to fully understand that this was not a relationship between equals. But, it is becoming more common in it usage as a legal defense.
Now, if she had no idea who he was...that is a different story.
Remember, this is a group that hits "spiritual authority" very hard! IF she was a part of that movement a good lawyer will use that. A case can be made that she did not feel she could regect his advances without reprecussion. That saying, "No," to her spiritual authority is equal to rebellion against God.
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It is sad. I wonder if the woman in question has had people come alongside her "with love and admonition, providing counsel, strong direction and accountability." I doubt it.
This is what makes me angry in these situations. If she is a part of that sphere many will blame her. If it is as bad as my situation she may even need protection. :(
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Having been through something similar, and knowing the scope of the organization. I have the feeling this letter was part of an agreed upon severance package which will include a clause about not saying anything else that could reflect negatively on Vision Forum....and I would assume there will be a settlement in the works with the other women dependent on her not saying, writing, or communicating anything that could reflect negaively on the organization. We will never know the full truth of their relationship, but I have suspicion there is more to it, based upon the fact that he is completely resigning his position. It is also important to remember that if she was a parishoner or in some way connected to the organization, she cannot "consent" to a relationship with him.
I do feel for his wife and both grieve for the disorienting pain she is going through, while hoping she comes out of this stronger and wiser. -
I have been trying to figure out how I feel about it. Not heartbroken. More like relief. Not for the pain the rest of the family is feeling, but that hopefully the festering wound that has been there all along will finally be treated and healed.
But, I don't think that is going to be a very popular opinion. :(
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The bank often can't or won't do anything without a police report.
But really if your mother okayed the $1500 and the bank stopped the other checks before they could be used? There's nothing to report on the bank end. No theft from the account has happened. Theft of the checks from the home would be the duty of your mother to report.
This is what I cannot figure out. She has okayed the $1500 (or tried to, not sure how that played out) and it was the bank that said it might be out of her hands.
We are not worried about this repeating itself, because they are now on opposite sides of the country and my aunt will prbably not see her mother again before she dies. My Mom isn't keeping them apart, but she was flown in on mom and grandma's dime and that is something they will not be doing again. My Aunt does not have the finances to fly herself out.
I think my Mom just wants it to go away so Grandma can live what remaining time she has in peace. :(
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Sounds like it could go either way. It is fine if it does. They can take a $1500 hit and chalk it up to learning to never leave Gma with either of her other two daughters.
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It sounds like your Mom has financial power of attorney. Since the checks were reported to the bank as stolen, they will start the process for prosecuting for theft. The bank representative is accurate when s/he says that this is out of your mother's hands now. Maybe this is for the best? Hang in there. I know from personal experience that dealing with close relatives around money is not always easy.
Thank you. That is relieving. I think we both "want" the bank to take action, but with the family dynamics it is best that my mother is not seen as the one pursing charges.
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If the banks will file charges of their own? My mother takes care of my Grandmother. I cannot remeber the term, but as Gma has dementia, my mother is her "guardian?" There were problems in the past where on of my mom's sister was constantly getting money out of Gma, so now everything is in a joint account and my mother signs off on everything.
Different sister came to spell my mother from her caregiving duties for a week. My mom just discovered that her sister stole checks from the joint account and forged Gma's signature on a $1500 check for cash. :(
Mom called the bank to stop all future checks with the missing numbers. She asked that they just pay out the $1500 and be done with it. (I really don't care if anyone disagrees with this. This is what my Mom can handle right now and that is okay with me) The bank said it might be out of her hands.
Does anyone know how this works with banks? -
truck won't start either. Not my day! ;(
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I shared this with one of the WTM FB groups yesterday. Not sure why, but it made me think of them? ;)
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I have not had any trouble with tasks loading in a timely manner in the 2+ years I have worked for them. As soon as I submit a task, the next one appears...ones with multiple videos might take 2-3 seconds, at most. What is your internet connection speed? Speedtest is a good one to check it. As a frame of reference, I have 16 Mbps download speed and 1 Mbps upload speed.
I have to be honest...if I had to wait several minutes for each task to fully load, I would not keep the job. It is not worth getting paid for only half the time I would be spending on work. As it is, I write down the time that I get my first task and write a tick mark for each task I get for that task type, then write the ending time when I finish working or switch to a different task type. So if I get my first task at 2:15 and work on tasks until 4:15, I get paid for the full 120 minutes.
No, this was not a problem with tasks loading, but with some (not all) video links within the task itself. The image for the video would load, but when I click on the video link it can take up to 45 second just to load. A couple of those within a task can really thow the time off.
OTOH, right after I posted this I got a ton of research tasks that I came in well under time on, so it does tend to average out if you work enough hours. :)
We swithed to high speed cable, because I got sick of satellite. ;)
Does anyone know is it 40 or 80 hours we can work? I thought it was 80 as well, but I have barely been able to make over 30 and they haven't gotten mad a me so now I wonder.
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I failed the 3rd portion of the test the first time and was able to re-test. I passed the 2nd time. I think I failed, because my internet speed was too slow (there was a storm and our satelitte provider was glitchy.)
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Clear creek, i am curious. I have been working for them for about 3 months and have found my circumstance to be very similar to the poster you quoted.
As of yet, I have not figured out a way to get compensated for the extra time it takes me on BU tasks and SXS that are extremely slow to load. There have been some recent video tasks that I have had the same trouble with. Already emailed with my supervisior and the tech team, but there seems to be no solution. Often I don't get to one of these until the L/R 3 or 4 positions and so by then I already have 50% or more of the allotted time invested. If I release the task then I am not paid, and if I wait the time it takes for slower loading videos I am not paid for the overage.
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I like it, but I really don't care about anything, but cool sets, makeup, and creepiness. I am pretty easy that way. ;)
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Are you looking for a book for kids or adults? There's a great book called The Life of the Virgin Mary The Theotokos. It's very dense but also quite interesting. It looks at her life alongside quotes from scripture and the Holy Fathers.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Life-Virgin-Mary-Theotokos/dp/0944359035
That one looks awesome...anyone have copy they want to lend me? or know where I can find it a little cheaper? :D
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Are you looking for a book for kids or adults? There's a great book called The Life of the Virgin Mary The Theotokos. It's very dense but also quite interesting. It looks at her life alongside quotes from scripture and the Holy Fathers.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Life-Virgin-Mary-Theotokos/dp/0944359035
For adults. There was one recommended to me a couple years ago and cannot remember which it was. The person who made the recommendation has moved away and I have as well. But, the way he described how much learning about her affected him has always stuck with me.
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I thought of putting this in the EO sub-group, but I have been so hit or miss that I wondered if we had any new EO posters that would be willing to give their 2 cents. (I started looking in the spring...then tourist season hit and well...I stoppped ;) )
I am still looking for a good book on the life, miracles, theology of...the Theotokos (Mary).
Any good suggestions?!
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I have quasi walked away from this convo, because we do see things very differently Bill and I just don't have the emotional energy to go into why right now (IRL issues, nothing to with this conversation.)
But, a couple points I wanted to make...One I am not under Met. Phillip's jurisdiction. Two, I do value his experience and wisdom, even if it has to come through cryptically reading behind his very Mid-east experienced lines.
It still remains that I do not want us to take any action until the UN establishes its findings. So, what if Russia veto's? we can still at least wait for the findings. But, now Boehner is refusing to meet with Russian diplomats, Reuters and a couple other news sources reporting it is in serious question as to wether Assad was behind this most recent attack...and....well frankly....let Britian, France or Italy lead the charge.
Any way...either way..no mater how it is looked at it is a mess. :(
(again, not a thorugh piece, but it is going to be interesting to watch this play out.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/05/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505
Has this been discussed? Doug Phillips *resigns* from Vision Forum (Ministries)!
in The Chat Board
Posted
Actually, you are right. It does go for the men (just not for the perpatrator). What you are describing is what saved my marriage. I had to recognize that dh was as much a victim as myself in many ways. Now, after our exit if my dh had not done the very difficult work of seeking out his own secular counselors to help sort out his wounds and what part of his upbringing had poised him to be vulnerable to this dynamic, we would probably be divorced.
Now, if dh had refused to face reality and wanted to keep me forced into that "role" he would have been both victim and abuser. It is the cycle. Thankfully, although we hit a very rough patch he was willing to do whatever it took to become a healthy adult and a great husband.
I have shared with a few people one of the things that he did that was a turning point for us. This was about 1.5 years after leaving (healing from these situations is very lengthy) and I was still very angry at dh for keeping us in that church as long as he did (I had pleaded for years to get out, but all I had was my gut feeling that something was very wrong and as women in that dynamic it would be seen as controlling if we left, becuase I wanted to) I told him I would remian living with him, raising the kids and working on myself, but he needed to agree to pay for me to go to nursing school so that I could choose to remain in the relationship by choice and not out of neccesity. I made it clear that once I could support myself I might still chose to leave him. He did not bat an eye, agreed, and was incredibly supportive.
When I say that the woman "may" not have had much of a choice I am only speaking to the dynamic between the woman and DP. It is very likely that her dh is a victim as well. (not in exactly the same way, but in a very similar vein).
If the dynamic was reversed and we were discussing a charismatic, powerful and dangerous woman who had control of her followers/employee's finances, families and spiritual life and she preyed on a man under her authority he would be just as much a vicitm. Same if it were a male/male or female/female. Gender has nothing to do with it.