Juniper
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Posts posted by Juniper
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The book helped me call a spade a spade.
Forgiving myself was a different matter. You see.......I stayed. I stayed in a church that was devastatingly damaging. I stayed even when I felt the horrible shame of being forced too choose between my sexual independence and wanting to keep my world intact (relationships, income).......and chose to try and keep my world intact.
Then there was the realization that I had dragged my kids through it along with me. I had taught them an unhealthy extreme of respect, demanded an unrealistic form of obedience, projected fears and motivations onto them that they were never meant to carry. Led them into relationships that were then ripped from them. Those are the broad strokes, there are so many layers to the way in which I parented.
I re-share my journey to tell you this. You are right where you need to be. You are right it is layers.....and layers....and layers. What happened to you was real. It was not right. Yes, you had some wonderful support in your priest walking the path with you, but the hooks were in deep,and the wound is deep. It is okay to lance the wound, to cry, to grieve what was lost. It is suffering in a healthy way.
And it is ok to forgive yourself. You know how in EO we hear priests talk about penance on rare occasion? How the goal is to be united with the church and the penitent member has usually punished themselves enough by the time they confess the situation to the Priest? In a sense, this is what I was doing to myself in grieving and feeling shame, but after awhile I needed to forgive myself. To rest in the grace and mercy of God and know that he can heal all wounds.....even those I walked myself into. My priest was able to see that I was punishing myself and it was time to forgive me.
God is with you as you grieve the loss and he is with you as continue to heal. You don't have to hold it altogether, you do not have to handle yourself according to their standard of what is appropriate and Godly.....your job is to get yourself to a safe place and heal. (By the way, I think you are already doing that) ;)
(((((Hugs Dear One)))))) you and your family are in my thoughts. Also please feel free to completely ignore anything I say that does not seem to fit your situation. You will not offend me :)
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Have you let yourself get angry at them yet? Not just at the mindset, but at the people that embraced them and still embrace them? You do not have to stay in anger and it is not a sin, but it is a part of the path to forgiveness, healing and peace. It is very difficult to heal from what we don't forgive and it is impossible to forgive what we do not accept as a wound. It is okay to feel the anger.
Now, you may have already gone through that phase. For me, the next phase was prompted by my Priest. I confessed that I was stuck, I had forgiven the wound and could even find blessing in it, but I was still stuck. He quietly mentioned that it might be time to forgive myself. Ugh, that was two years ago. Next phase.....honestly? ......forgiving God. I can tell you that I finally got there 3 months ago.
8 yrs. it has taken me 8yrs to get to a place where I feel *healed* (from a specific traumatic wound) and hopeful.....excited......free. Intellectually I had worked through things years ago, but I could not connect my mind to my heart.
I also do not want to make it sound like it was 8 yrs of bitterness and pain. It wasn't. There were beautiful moments mixed in and they even outweighed the bad. For the first time I remember the hopefulness and excitement I felt when I first decided to go to seminary......and I feel that again. Not a desire to go to seminary, but the hope, confidence and Joy in life with a Good God.
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I know I said I wanted book recommendations, but after reading the book descriptions I'm feeling jittery and untrusting toward these authors. I have a probably illogical feeling that they want to control me and pressure me to think like them. I didn't expect this reaction to reading book descriptions. So, I'm altering my request. I don't want to tackle this by reading a book. Talking/typing it out, sharing, caring, etc. is more comfortable to me. Please excuse my waffling.
I can recommend The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I think it may be just what you are looking for. It comes at it from the Psycholigical aspects more than any particular spiritual approach. It shows how particular verses get twisted without having to go into theology (again it stay pretty firm in psychological). There may be a few exceptions, but it is the best resource I have discovered for dealing with this.
(((((Hugs)))))
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Not that they need me to point this out, but for many of our Orthodox Jewish friends Shabbat observances have begun. We probably won't hear from them for awhile depending on time zones. :)
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Thanks Patty!
I'll go quiet again and continue to read as the thread goes along, and let the info about OC keep coming together for me.
A number of years ago I was on this board and posted a question along a similar vein. Mine was more about the fact that the eo church needed to change adapt in light of archeological discoveries. The posters response, "What discoveries?"
Being the good seminary student and minister's wife I was, I took this as a challenge. The more I researched the more it became clear the these so called discoveries did not exist. Timothy Ware's book the Orthodox Church is a good read for understanding this better.
:)
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Patty Joanna and milovany were very good at steering me to the right church. :)
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Ok, I have a question, but it is one that has been already hinted at earlier in the thread. I will try to expand on this particular issue that I have always had trouble wrapping my head around ever since I have come to know you wonderful ladies. :)
Let's take myself for an example. I was raised in a non- religious house. When I was very young 4-5 I remember feeling a sense of desperation for a religion, a faith walk...something. I remember pulling on my mother's arm with tears streaming down my face saying, "But, what religion are we?! We must believe something!!!!!" Nothing bad had happened to me, I wasn't be left out or picked on. The truth was I simply wanted to know God and know how to live a life in connection with him. This never went away and deepened as I grew up. It was not enough to simply be spiritual.....I wanted a life, a home, a discipline, a practice, a relationship....all of it and more than I can put onto words.
I considered Judaism early on, but had no access to it....not like Christianity. Obviously, I have continued to search, seek and deepen my relationship with God....while wrestling with some issues in mainstream Christianity that led me towards Eastern Orthodoxy. The western understanding of Hell and Sin did not resonated for me....as well as other factors.
Here is where I get confused in regards to Judaism. Where would I fit? Noachide I do not think would be enough for me, but I also do not feel like....Ugh.....I don't know how to put this.....like converting would be welcomed by the Jewish community either. I realize if it was that important to me it should not matter, so it is not quite that either.
What is God's purpose for someone like me? Someone who needs more than to just be a good person? Needs to study, embrace and be a part of community? Needs to walk out her faith in prayer, ritual, and devotion. In the last 4 years that I have been reading these threads that is the one thing I struggle with understanding. :(According to Jewish understanding what is God's will for the non-Jew who wants more......? Sorry, I do not know how to phrase this better. ;)
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This article expresses some of the concerns I was trying to express yesterday. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/30/two-prominent-black-voices-offer-a-very-different-perspective-on-sterling-punishment-mob-rule-is-dangerous/
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Yes, but with a couple caveats. Dd13 is presently on a two week grounding (no sleepovers or electronics except to communicate with parents) for not charging her phone twice in close succession. She is being much better about her phone now.
Secondly, like others have said, I would be going into the house and meeting the drivers. It is a personal thing that I have to visibly see who is driving my child. Other than that I would let her go. -
Hugs. If you are comfortable with you GP talk to them. They can help. Like the others, I am a bit frustrated that I did not get help for this sooner.
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I absolutely think we should be held accountable for our views. I think that is what the phrase courage of convictions means.
If you want to be a racist then you should be willing to not be accepted by a society that is working to eliminate racism.
I don't disagree.
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We *don't know* if they are clear because the NBA's by-laws that all owners agree to are *not* public information. The following link offers more information about avenues of disciplinary action: http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10851145/how-nba-respond-donald-sterling
Really? You *really* think that is an appropriate metaphor to make in this case?
Your right, I did not think that through....multi tasking, but the more I think on it.....yes I do feel that way regarding this and the other recent Firefox incident. Head on a platter might have been better, but I have issues with the whole John the Baptist connection as well. ;)
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Here's the quote from the NBA:
More from the same story:
The NBA is a *private organization*. They absolutely have the right to ensure that their financial interests are not harmed by stated beliefs/actions of owners that become public information.
He will likely be forced to sell, but the team won't simply be stripped from him, he will *sell* it. There is a due process in place, 3/4 of other owners must agree. That *is* the due process that is in place for these types of actions.
I get that and you are right that in being forced to sell he will recoup his assets, but that begs other questions. Is being forced to sell going to garner the price the team is worth? I still do not think the NBA standards on this are clear and it should be no surprise that this man is a racist. He has been for years.
The lynch mob mentality is what is becoming increasingly alarming.
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My understanding is that everyone affiliated with the NBA (including owners) is bound by by a set of standards for behavior as a condition of their participation, and that the NBA feels that Mr. Sterling has violated those standards. From what the NBA commissioner said in his statement, he is planning to ask the Board of Governors to exercise provisions written into the NBA constitution to force Mr. Sterling to sell the Clippers team (I think I read he needs a 3/4 majority to do so). I don't think due process applies to a private organization enforcing standards that Mr. Sterling agreed to when he bought an NBA team. They did wait a few days to be sure that the recording was genuine and that Mr. Sterling did say the things attributed to him.
And his property won't "be stripped from him." He will indeed be forced to sell, if the commissioner can get the required support from the Board, but I haven't seen anything suggesting that he won't be receiving fair value for the team.
It is my understanding that there is nothing specific in the standards that addresses this issue. It is a grey area at this place in time, although I am sure they will clarify the standards after this.
I agree that he needs to go. It is the way he is going that I am concerned about. Let the owners vote, follow the by-laws as written, but writing them under this type of media frenzy is what I am struggling with. Chart before the horse, so to speak.
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Homeschooling is easy, just do it. Weather is a beast......we moved away. :) Don't know of any Messianic congregation, but I do now some wonderful Orthodox ones. Good luck!
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You don't think it matters that a man who owns a team with contracted African American players is a racist? He's being forced to sell the team and has been banned from the NBA for life, so it is sort of a moot point. But, I *definitely* think it matters if business owners are bigots. The opinions of CEOs and business owners *do* matter, and they affect the choices I make with my dollars.
I can agree that it matters and that my dollars should reflect that, but we are seeing an increased number of CEO's and various corporate leaders bullied out of their jobs because of their personal beliefs. Last month it was the CEO of Firefox for donating $1000 dollars of his personal money to a traditional marriage organization, now Sterling is being forced out when the NBA does not have an actual policy to justify this move.
The micro managing of personal beliefs is something I find a bit scary. Now, if he was convicted of something due to those beliefs I am all for him being banned from the NBA for his conviction, but this feels like a witch hunt.
Again, I find this man personally abhorrent. I think it is even worse that he owns a team made up of primarily African Americans, but just because I feel that way does not mean he should be prevented from owning a team. Has he had due process? On what grounds is the NBA basing their decision? because he is douche bag? So, when the media riles up the general populace into deeming someone a douche bag they can have their property stripped from them (talking about team ownership, not individual players of course)?
Something just feels really off in how this is being handled.
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My husband used to take martial arts classes...and I'm sorry I am completelty spacing on the name of that style of fighting...but all of the practitioners are Russian Orthodox. His teachers spoke at length about how their religious practices are incorporated into their martial arts.
Is Russian Orthodox the same as Eastern Orthodox?
And is there some kind of "official" association between the Church and this particular form of martial arts, or just coincidence that everyone who does it is Russian Orthodox? [if, indeed, RO is the same as EO.]
ETA oh! Its called Systema.
Yes, it is my understanding that Russian Orthodoxy is the spiritual basis for this form of martial arts, but it is not a requirement to learn it.
As to your second question, yes the Russian Orthodox Church is a part of Eastern Orthodoxy. Different Geographic areas have different jurisdictions.
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Not a Mark Cuban fan, but this is my feelings on this. "But regardless of your background, regardless of the history they have, if we're taking something somebody said in their home and we're trying to turn it into something that leads to you being forced to divest property in any way, shape or form, that's not the United States of America. I don't want to be part of that."
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10854381/mark-cuban-dallas-mavericks-rails-donald-sterling-not-favor-kicking-owner&ex_cid=sportscenter -
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It appears that there are a few pentecostal denominations (as mentioned above--Assembly of God, Foursquare) that do have ordination processes with a church authority.
But you will also find hundreds of churches where someone simply feels called by God to be a pastor and sets up a church. Those people have no oversight, except from God alone.
Some of those independent churches are awesome. And some turn out wackadoodle. "Buyer" beware when you attend an independent church.
....and some, even with Universities and Ordination processes turn out extreme wackadoodles with the full backing of the denomination behind them. ;)
The Foursquare church was founded by Amy Semple Mcpherson who was ordained with the Assemblies of God, but due to a few different issues: Her divorce, owning the church she built in her own name (as a single woman), and some would speculate the treatment of women in general, she left the AG. The Foursquare church and Assemblies of God are very similar.
In the AG, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and to be baptized by the Holy Spirit are two separate things. One occurs at salvation the other is a special gift that is evidenced by the INITIAL......PHYSICAL evidence of speaking in tongues. This speaking in tongues in required of leadership. If there is any doubt about the AG's detailed fact finding on how many speak in tongues I would suggest reading this recent article. http://www.christianpost.com/news/assemblies-of-god-leader-denies-that-speaking-in-tongues-is-in-decline-in-pentecostal-churches-103613/
The AG broke ties with all of the Holiness movement churches over the Oneness issue. The Apostolic churches were too extreme for me so I know less about them.
For my children's sake I do occasionally miss the music, but every time I try to go back to some of the artists we listened to I cannot get past the theology. :(
Edited: I do agree with Milovany in that I think it would be accurate to describe churches like the assemblies of God, Foursquare, and similar as Charismatic....while saving Pentecostal for the more extreme Apostolic Holiness ones. The only problem would be with AG which still contains both ends of the spectrum.
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Yes. I started as a way to deal with the panic attacks from dealing with you know whom. I continue with my more "mental health" ones to deal with my Mother's relapse and Narcisstic behaviors (or more like not deal with her behaviors ) ;) and have discovered more spiritual mindfulness practices through EO.
On a separate note: we have visitors coming from our old stomping grounds and I already am feeling anxious. Months to go and it is still hard.
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My dh works in this specific field. He says it is a two phase process. All of the units in your house have to be converted water heater, furnace, dryer and stove potentially. Then it costs to get natural gas run to your house. The cost to your house is dependent on how far it has to come from and how many other houses are able to be converted in your immediate area. Basically, if there is no line to your neighborhood you have to get the other members of the community on board. If you are rural and there is not gas main nearby it will be very expensive.
You would contact a marketing rep for the gas company you are interested in servicing your home.I hope that helps. :)
edited for reference: Dh says he has seen $15,000 to bring the gas line 800' from the mainline. Further and you might want to win the lottery. This is all for the State of Michigan which is not a very expensive state to have this type of work done.
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I'm really curious about birth control. I was under the impression that it wasn't allowed (besides abstinence/NFP), but it sounds like maybe that's not the case, based on what a few posters have said? Is it the difference between an ideal, and accepting that people are in different places on their way toward that ideal?
(This is a huge area for us. I understand the RC theology regarding various forms of birth control, and we don't use hormones or barriers, but the fact is that my fertility returns almost immediately after giving birth.)
I was reading this article today and thought you might want to read it.http://thoughtsintrusive.wordpress.com/2012/08/30/you-call-my-words-immodest/
Here is an excerpt: In contrast to Roman Catholicism, the Orthodox Faith does not believe that human seed of either sex alone constitutes human life in any way. If such a notion were true, then either of the sexes, or at least the woman, would be able to reproduce completely without need of anything from the other. But God “did not enable woman to bear children without man; if this were the case, she would be self- sufficient.â€34†Orthodoxy rejects the Latin belief system that ascribes being to “pure possibilities,†i.e., to abstract ideas of the potentialities of things. Scholastic theology says it is a sin to prevent a sperm cell and an ovum from forming a life and that the pure potentialities or possibilities of things exist fulfilled in some manner in the eternal mind and essence of God because He enjoys thinking about them.35 Therefore, Papism says, to prevent a conception is to destroy something that has a reality and being in God. This system of thought is not rooted in the Gospel but in the definitions and presuppositions of the Greek philosophers.
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Are your services in Russian or Greek, or is English the language of worship?
Also…weird question…but do you stand the entire time for your service? I remember going to a Russian Orthodox wedding, and I think we stood the entire time (it's been many years, though.)
The church we were baptized in was Antiochian Orthodox which meant a mix of English, Persian and Arabic. We stood most of the service.
Now, we are in a Greek Orthodox church with a Romanian priest. This means the service is primarily in heavily accented English with Greek and Romanian mixed in. We sit quite a bit more in our Greek parish.
Help me define and heal from this church experience
in The Chat Board
Posted
Yeah, I am there ....... Now. Sometimes, I still cycle a bit through the phases of grief, but the anger has been replaced by a sense of bewilderment.
I think how much anger we end up dealing with is in relation to how violating the experience was. Did it occur in part in the home? When that happens you cannot even look at where someone was sitting without a memory (although they mercifully fade:)) Things like that. Sometimes it takes awhile to see how deep the wound went.
((((Hugs)))) I always feel for people who go through these things, but there is also an exquisite beauty that comes out on the other side.