Juniper
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Posts posted by Juniper
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It does make sense and your right about the language and vocabulary. I have forgotten so much of my Hebrew, but I remember their being an "über" word there as well. I think it had to do with "ah" at the end of many words.
Sometimes I struggle with a wounded tunnel vision and when I constantly come across the "maleness" of certain writings it does start to rub me wrong. I think in other ways I long for a mother Teresa or Madame Guyon of Orthodoxy. Honesty, I would love to see the role of Deaconess brought back. Maybe it is having two sons serve in the altar while wondering what options are there for my daughter?
Sometimes I wish Jesus had come when the concept of divine feminine was more positively embraced.
I am not sure what triggered my thoughts on this recently. I think I was discussing eo with a women who had converted to Wicca and she had mentioned that the one thing that held her back from eo was the lack of a divine feminine. I found myself confused, because I could see her point but also knew God ( genesis) to be neither/more than masculine feminine.
I have a Jewish friend who has no issues with seeing God as Mother, but realized that in Christianity that concept is not exactly PC. :) that makes me somewhat sad, like there is an aspect of God we miss out on.
Just rambling here, but also hoping that somewhere in the treasury of eo there is something to fill this particular void.
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He reminds me a little of the son who said he wouldn't go and help his father......but then did. :) I like that parable.
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I would add to what Milovany said an say that while he doesn't speak for orthodoxy in the Dogma sense, it was brave honest souls like his that led me towards the church. I needed a church that was deep enough, strong enough, patient enough and wise enough to bear with me in my darkest and lowest moments. A church that would not be punitive when I was honest about my struggles.
In ministry, I was not allowed to be honest in my struggles for fear of how it might hinder "weaker" christians. In eo I can be honest and I have seen priests be so as well.
I few weeks ago we visited my inlaws evangelical church. Afterwards I noticed my husband was visually upset. When I probed him I found he was upset because every illustration the pastor have a personal struggle was of something from his childhood or so long ago as to be considered "overcome." Nothing was in the present. It stirred up memories for dh about not being allowed to be honest about his struggles.
For me, schaeffer's ability to be publicly honest and in communion I a strength of eo and a huge part in why I felt safe in converting.
:)
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I think it is the sense of gender value imbalance that I am struggling with. When I think of the God of the Garden I don't see "it" as primarily one or the other, but it seems that through time it became acceptable for God to be seen in a human sense as male, but some how sacrilegious as female. Why Is one acceptable and the other not? Why is one gender more Godlike than another?
My own theological training would say that god is neither male no female. That we only ascribe certain attributes to make him more relatable to us. So I guess my question is "why does it seem that male gender is okay to ascribe, but female is not?"
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I am sorry that is so disjointed. Sinus infection and sudafed means I probably shouldn't be posting. :)
This stemmed from a conversation with dh on why we balk with referring to God as Mother, even when god refers to himself that way. Why that gut drop feeling. Why is it more acceptable to refer to god as male than female? Why not a better balance?
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I am not entirely sure what I am looking for, but before I form beliefs about the orthodox mind on women's issues I want to make sure I understand what that mind is......clear as mud? ;)
What I am struggling is a broad issue and not just the whole "women clergy" issue. I would say it goes back to the Old Testament, but my Jewish studies have cleared that up a bit. I have also found to my great surprise that I am developing a appreciation for some o the rc approaches to women.
I understand though that my lack of education on this topic within an eo mind frame may be hindering me where no hindering is necessary.
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Again sorry for typos. My phone and I hate each other :)
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Laurie, the only thing I would point out is that his journey isn't over. He may have written those pieces at a low point. That doesn't mean it is the end. Also, he is not priest so although he has a public audience that doesn't give his words more weight where his walk is concerned. What I am saying is that he is public ally stating what many struggle with privately. Priests though here the private all the time and it doesn't shock them the way it can shock is.
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Antonia, I wish I could like your post!
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Kathryn, I tried to in my first response. I think it is very common, because most priests a. Are very reticent to judge (heck they don't want to KNOW the details during confession) B. most of that info would normally come through confession....and forgiveness of sins granted. C. The goal is for the orthodox believer to be unified to the church......even if they are struggling with something.
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Note: these are just my personal thoughts.
It might help to see the eo stance on fencing the table a bit like not having sex before marriage. Their is a pleasure and sacredness to that act that is lent value due to the commitment it entails. Just as the people are not perfect spouses after the wedding ceremony or perfect lovers..... They are still in a sacramental relationship.
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I loved his blog post after his mother passed http://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2013/03/goodbye-mom-edith-schaeffer-1914-2013-rip/ I loved the stories a out their discussions and her support. He has a very specific tone and I think you have to "know" that tone to understand what he is and isn't saying.
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I think I may be a bit confused on if he converted at some point in the past. I thought he had.
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Sorry, for typos. iPhone :(
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I will do my best to lend to this conversation. I have not read the article, but did read the earlier quotes. I also am very familiar with his story and find a bit of a kindred spirit with him. If I am honest I have very similar thoughts and beliefs at times. Granted there is some flow between those and a more "acceptable" faith walk, but if you only consider that side of me he and I would be very similar.
There are two things I keep in mind. Converting to eo means I know and the priest knows that I know the beliefs of the eo church. I have said in my heart, if there is Christian truth out there, I believe this comes the closest. The rest I leave in god's capable hands to either establish or keep me in peace even when I doubt. Ultimately what this does is allow the priest at any given church to know that I know under what conditions I should take communion.
Secondly, eo believes there is life and healing in the Eucharist. To I believe that with every fiber of my being 100% of the time. No. If I am honest with you, I really struggle with this. But, I do hope and I do walk forward in a very basic faith. Not in the Eucharist, but in the God of the Eucharist. There I a second half to this point that is IMPERATIVE. The goal of the church, and specifically the Eucharist is UNITIY not perfection. My priest explained it to me this way, "when someone confesses a sin our goal is not to separate them from the Eucharist because they are somehow "unworthy," but to shepherd them back into the church where healing is found." The problem is that we cannot look at another journey, place on the path, and know from how deep a hole they are climbing.
Btw, dh and I just had a lengthy discussion last week about tr whole he, she, it subject. I struggle with it as well. :)
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CTT ha a different privacy setting than we did. I remember discussion it with Chucki and that is why I thought their posts could be seen, but ours couldn't. How weird!
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Fact. That said, when my very impulsive (often a danger to themselves) boys could no longer take mess we found that moving to a very slow paced, rural, rustic, adventuresome community made them more the norm rather than the exception. I suppose this lifestyle attracts a type of ADHD personality and therefore the community is more accepting of the children's antics.
My boys went from being the extreme to being the model of exemplary behavior. I think the individual community culture plays a huge factor.
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Really? I didn't think you could see posts unless you were a member. How did i miss that?
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I can reply from my phone. :)
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I am just going to write this out and hope someone benefits from it. Moving and transitioning to a new church has been very rough, but amazing in many ways as well. At our church (the one we converted in) I was shriveling. It is a difficult thing to explain. The Priest is a gifted teacher, has a great sense of humor and a certain amount of down to earth crassness that was very beneficial to me, but on the flip side it was a very traditional Southern parish in feel. There were traditions that rubbed me wrong and were honestly sucking the life out of me. I hope this doesn't come across as bashing, because I still think it is an amazingly healthy parish...it just wasn't the right one for me.
When we came north for Christmas I was SHOCKED, AMAZED and THRILLED to see my first woman reading the Epistle. I realized I had a great sadness in my heart developing around the role of women in the church life (not something I want to get into atm) and this did much to lift my spirits.
So, we moved. The parish itself has been an awkward adjustment, but it is getting there. There is a bright spot. We have a young Priest with a young wife and kids. I wasn't sure what to expect and was a little concerned about his youth. Part of me longed for a gentle Santa Claus type priest. ;) After being here about 2 months I feel confident in reporting that he is humble, gentle, wise and a very gifted theologian. It takes a lot for me to say that...especially the last part. An
old soul" with and intact sense of humor and down to earth sensibility. His wife is incredibly sweet and I feel.....I am not quite sure how to put it.....a deep sense of gratefulness for the parish we have landed in. It isn't perfect, but it is wonderful in its imperfection.
Today was a particularly nice DL. We were unable to stay as we had other family Easter obligations, but i had my second wonderful chat with a cradle Orthodox woman who is both well traveled and well taught. I get the impression she grew up in the east of the country near some sort of major Orthodox Seminary and had a pious mother who dragged her to every lecture possible. :D We also found out that her former priest is the priest at the parish dh is going to be attending during the week in the southern part of the state. I was able to ask some questions about some of the "laxness" in parish practice that I had noticed and she was very wise and gracious in her explanations.
All in all, the lines have landed for me in pleasant places.
Today, in the Priest's message he pointed out something, that once again, I had overlooked in my Protestant days. He was talking about the friends who lowered the paralytic through the roof. In reading that portion of scripture he pointed out that Jesus says/infers that it is because of "their" faith that the paralytic's sins are forgiven. It was a message on living in community and interconnectedness and I loved it. It made the verses about the wife or husband sanctifying the unbelieving spouse a little more clear. :)
Just thought I would share!
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Before Orthodoxy dh and I always put together MASSIVE community easter egg hunts through our church. The irony I find is that we do not do that anymore, but we actually have a historical tradition involving Mary Magdalene and red dyed eggs. Funny how things turn out ;)
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I wish there was a mockumentary about all the political themes that have come to infiltrate churches across the spectrum, including Catholic and Orthodox churches.
I'm profoundly tired of having spirituality and homilies reduced to an American or Western centric view of "conservative" and "liberal" beliefs, which have become catchphrases anymore for "good" and "evil."
I left the Assemblies of God denomination I was raised in when I was in my early twenties, because the churches I attended were obsessed, first, with "winning back the country for God," which often translated into vote in such-and-such Republican. Secondly, it was "let's show everyone how cool we are by getting louder and edgier music and other themes, like Hell House." Finally, it was the lack of any historical study into the roots of the early church, and the myopic "Bible-as-sole-and-infallible-source of doctrine and beliefs" that turned me off. Mostly, because without any outside context, the was used more like Magic 8 ball, in that you could get it to give you any sort of direction, depending on how you spun it.
Then, I investigated other Protestant denominations, including the Methodists, and the Presbyterians/Calvinists on the other soteriological end. I ended up rejecting both due to their respective one dimensional approaches to understanding Scripture.
After that point, I met my dh, who was serving in a traditional Anglican church. I was drawn to the liturgy and the history of the church. I ended up being confirmed, and married in that church, and had our ds baptised there.
However, even the traditional liturgical church fell into the same trap as the AoG did. That is, the priest put a heavy emphasis in his homilies on "traditional family values," and anti-feminist rhetoric, and taking definite political sides in regards to national affairs. When we visited other churches in our diocese, the message was the same. It was always "Submit, submit, submit, especially women. Crusade for the unborn, whose fate is always more important than the concerns of already-born humans. Show contempt for anything modernist, and wax eloquent on the glory days of Tolkien and C.S. Lewis."
Just like the AoG, this church shameless used the sacred to prop up personal power and agenda. Except, this time it was the sacraments and the Mass being used to draw people in, stead of the Bible.
I left that diocese, and traditional liturgical churches, and I will never return to that environment, as I have never returned to the folds of evangelical Christianity. In both cases, the same thing drove me away--hierarchal power and the desire to control others through fear and spiritual coercion. Like trying to put new wine into old wine skins by dressing up mortal considerations and imperatives with immortal and transcendent themes.
This is why even though I attend a "liberal" Episcopal Church, I am still wary of the wider church, because of it's "top-down" structure. It's why I cannot fathom joining an RCC or EO church--same problem, just different headquarters.
I agree with Joanne that there is a lot of spiritual arrogance out there that presumes that there is a "best way" to approach God. IMO, if there is a best way, it isn't in the prideful approaches used by so many groups trying to entice new visitors to their distinguished edifices. Sure, the approach being used in many evangelical churches is ridiculous in many ways, and shallow, and lacks substance. But, the data shows that young people are leaving religion--of all colors, traditional too--in large numbers.
That's because there's a sea change going on across the globe, and many people are fed up with top-down organizations, whether it's the 1% ruling from Wall Street, their wealthy pals sitting in Congress and heading up other governments, or the cloistered men of the cloth, who calmly issue blessings and their condemnation upon what will most likely protect and prolong their own hierarchy.
More people are seeking egalitarian relationships, person-to-person, community-to-community, and equitable footing. They are tired of seeing power corrupt over and over again. They understand that it's not simply a lack of holiness or goodness or whatever. No, power corrupts, period. And the love of money, which is the basis of power in our world, is the root of all evil.
So, younger people, especially, are increasingly rejecting the old paradigm. They are men and women, straight and gay, rich and poor, all different colors, and they're tired of being told that what they do in the "world" is unrelated or less important than what is done in the church. So a person is gay "out there," in the church, must be a eunuch. So a female corporate leader "out there" is locked out of the hierarchy of her EO or RCC or other church. It's a disconnect that many just don't want to entertain anymore, and so simply are leaving behind organized religion.
That's a theme I've been seeing more and more, and that's why I think that whether evangelical churches or traditional liturgical churches "win" the tug-o-war for young people's allegiance, the truth is the overall pool is shrinking to such a degree, that any win may be pyrrhic in the end, unless church leaders give up their love for the temporal and the transient.
You have stated some of my very own thoughts succinctly. The one side that tempers and softens my anger towards top down leadership in some traditions is the Monastic and Ascetic traditions that are still being worked out. Particularly the Ascetic side. I wish this was something we saw more of in America, but at least the monastic communities are multiplying.
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Juniper, I will pray for you and your family. :grouphug: Is there a place to just be pretty forthright with her and tell her what you told us here? (The part about feeling all discombobulated about it yourself and so you've just decided to forgo it this year.) I'm sorry it's a rough patch in this way.
I'm glad for a positive update, Kathryn! I hope it all ends soon, too.
I have. It doesn't seem to penetrate though.
I got away for a few hours tonight with dd and that was nice.
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Would you ladies help me out here? I am feeling all kinds of turned around this Lent. Because we are living with the in-laws I decided to lay low on things distinctly Orthodox. I am having a really rough time adjusting to their routine, but I feel that it is polite for me to make an effort to do so. OTOH, MIL keeps asking me well meaning, but very loaded questions that put me on the spot. Things like, "So, when are you going to start fasting?" "Are you guys going to be total vegetarians?" "Can't you guys just pick something to give up?"
I finally explained that since we were in her home we would not be fasting. I feel like we are both a curiosity and a disappointment. I honestly just don't have the energy this Lent to plan for the fast and deal with the repercussions in the family. I know it will sound bad, but there is a certain element of them waiting for my children to complain about something EO and I just don't want to give it to them.
In all of this, we are dealing with the upcoming wedding of a cousin to a young Catholic man. I am having to do a lot of tongue biting with some of the comments that are flying. All in all, I am just confused on what I "should" do this Lent.
This probably sounds very judgmental of me, but I really am trying to love them through it and remain calm and generous. There are other bigger issues that we are dealing with, but this one is causing a tension inside of me. I think it is because her constant questions, even after we I have explained that we are not doing certain things, only serve to highlight that I am NOT doing them. Probably my own insecurity shining through, but I feel very. Ugh!
Vague question on women's issues in eo.
in Exploring Orthodox Christianity
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Thank you. I think I do need to come to know the Theotokos better. She is one of the "lost things" that drew me to orthodoxy, she is also someone I fear to know, but the fear.....amazingly.....is that same fear that looking at god's mothering attributes. It is a fear based in conservative evangelical Christianity. A fear I hate to have and yet I do. :(