:shudder: With all the money the government wastes I am not going to begrudge a person even steak and lobster

My mom is like this with a lot of veggies. I think it's because, growing up, they were only given veggies out of a can. Most veggies out of a can taste gross. Then they were boiled too long or otherwise ill prepared, making one think that veggies are gross. Now that I only buy her fresh veggies, mostly homegrown from my garden, she's learned that she loves brussels sprouts, asparagus, and other vegetables.

Using circumcision as an example-- Dh is circumcised, as are other males in both of our families. We live in the Midwest in conventional families and it's just the way it is done. Then when I learned we were having boys I did research and became absolutely certain that I would not allow it to be done. Period. No compromise. My dh at first argued the normal pro-circ'ing types of things--our boys might look different in the locker room. That kind of argument held up next to mine--that it's a human rights issue, was pretty weak. He then watched a video of a circ procedure and became adamently anti-circ. For another example--I wanted to have a home birth. DH was worried about safety. I did my research, he did his. I could show him research supporting my side, he could not. We had a homebirth.

This exactly. There have been a few times where one of us has put our foot down and said, "This is important to me and I will not compromise on this." It's been very few and whoever has said it has always had good reason for saying it.

This really spoke to me! Thank you. :)

I have long struggled with this issue and it struck me last night that some people here might be able to give me some insight. I am an atheist. My dh is some form of agnostic. We've raised the kids atheist and learn about religion as a way to understand people better. My family, however, are all various breeds of pretty fervent Christians. They have gotten more observant after the death of my grandmother (the family matriarch) a couple of years ago--one uncle is born again and very excited about it, one aunt is very active in a New Testament church, and so on. It's a big family; my mom is one of seven and all of them have a few kids, most of them have a few kids, et cetera, so the sheer numbers can be overwhelming. Anyway, I love my family and, for the most part, really enjoy the times that we are together. There is one exception--I hate the group prayers. They pray a lot. Now, please don't misunderstand me. I don't have a problem with people praying. My problem is that it's expected that everyone participates. And the prayer itself is rather long and very...specific. Lots of "Heavenly Father's" and "In Jesus' name". It makes me uncomfortable. I don't care if *they* do it, I just feel weird standing there holding hands as if I'm praying as well. I tried looking as if I was busy when they were gathering for prayer (they waited for me) and I tried just quietly focusing on how glad I was that everyone was healthy and able to be together. Still, it feels as if I'm being dishonest and also as if I'm coerced. When we're at a specific relative's house I just grin and bear it--it's their home and if they pray, we'll pray. But when we're at, say, the park for a family reunion or something I feel a bit resentful. For example, we went to Tennessee last month to visit the spot where one of the uncles died in a motorcycle accident. At every place we stopped to eat they would join hands and give this prayer. Again, I don't mind them praying but, you know, my food is getting cold! And I don't want to pray! While I've never said outright, "I'm an atheist," all of them know that I'm not a Christian. They know that we are unconventional (I have dreadlocks, we're organic farmers, we homeschool, socially liberal) but I've never had the opportunity to just be "out". But they also don't invite me to church (they all like to go to church together) or any of the church-related activities that they often do as a group. So I'm asking, as it seems like most here are Christians, how would you prefer a family member like me to behave? Would the dishonesty of standing in on your prayer bother you? Would you prefer that I stand aside? How can I do this without appearing...rude? (Since it's obviously expected that we all pray together) Once dh asked, after their prayer, to give his own prayer and that was accepted--his was a "thank the earth for the food" type of thing but it just seemed so forced (I mean, we thank the earth for our food but the prayer itself seemed disingenuous). I want my kids to grow up knowing that it's okay to just say "No thank you, I'm atheist and don't pray," because it *is* okay. Why can't I, then, just say so?

People can think what they want, but it can be rude to say so and I don't have to sit and listen to people being rude. I have all kinds of opinions that I keep to myself. Why? Because nobody asked my opinion. Because it's none of my business. People who disagree with homeschooling are free to disagree. They are free to send their kids to school. They are free to discuss me and the decisions I make behind my back. They are not free to confront me with their opinions because, frankly, I don't want to hear it. My life is not a democracy and I haven't passed out comment cards.

This. Of course, "celebrating" to us means watching the Macy's Parade and football while gorging ourselves.

How can they be equal when one is given a responsibility based on gender that the other cannot fulfill? Both might be valuable in the eyes of G-d (and I'm being theoretical, as I'm not Christian) but they cannot be equal. If they were equal one would become head of household based upon merit, not gender.

With, unless I'm mistaken, men being the final authority for no other reason than because they are men.

My kids aren't huge on traditional Thanksgiving fare. They do love carrot souffle, however, to the point that I have to make a double batch.

I am no Biblical scholar, although I've read it several times (although it's been a few years). I would think that it would be difficult to take it in context, however, because it seems like it was somewhat inconsistent. In the OT there are mentions of polygamous marriages which I doubt people want nowadays. I think it might well come down to the wording of the original text, which is an entirely different debate altogether.

Being in the position to delegate itself is a subtle form of oppression, particularly when the reason the person is the leader is because he was born with an outie, not an innie. ETA: I want it to be very clear that people can live however they'd like. I'm not trying to make judgements. Still, I don't think it can be argued that it's not all seperate-but-equal when we're talking about a submissive relationship, just by definition.

this is where I end up as well. Even if the Biblical model if followed to a 't' the husband still has final authority over the household...because of no reason other than that he is a man. That is *my* problem (and I understand that really doesn't mean a dang thing outside of my own marriage) with it and why I would be very unhappy if my sons or daughter, someday, wanted to enter into such a marriage. It's not that I assume automatically abuse or overt suppression of women, it's simply that women are not ever on the same level as men.

And the Bible has passages about submission. It also notes that the only acceptable reason for divorce is adultery, leaving her hands tied in the case of abuse. Again--people can interpret the Bible in many different ways. None of them can know that their interpretation is the "true" one.

I would suggest a menstrual cup now, although I wouldn't push it if she has an 'ick' factor about it.

I must have missed that. Still, I do find your dismissiveness, well, annoying. There have been many who have given very valid reasons for concern (Sputterduck is one that I remember by name). Guess the fact that some women are abused by their husbands and encouraged by church members to remain in those relationships doesn't matter.:glare: I doubt highly that their experiences are any less of "the truth" than yours are.

How do you know which model of submission is true?

Considering the original post specifically spoke of Christianity, I'd say that's why Christianity is being discussed rather than from some form of persecution, especially considering that Christianity seems to be the predominant religion on this board. I'd venture to say that those who have an issue with patriarchy have the same issues regardless of the religion.

Huh. Way to take actual concerns and completely disregard them using hyperbole.

I think that the case could be made that someone is, in fact, hurt. I'm not making that case, mind, but I can see where it could be made. Further, some women might have a very valid objection to being seen as second class. When people are encouraged to believe that penis=supremacy, vagina=submission in something as intimate as a marriage, such people might very well hold those beliefs over into how they behave in society.

I agree with this completely. Besides just plain disagreeing with the idea, it doesn't seem to be terribly prudent, either. In our household I'm the one who has taken responsibility over homeschooling. I research curricula, I research pedagogy--it's my railroad. How silly would it be for me to defer to dh in this area, just because he's the man? Some people are better with the finances. Some are better with home improvements. Some are better at thises and thats. Sometimes those people are going to have vaginas. It baffles me that those people might not have the chance to do the things they are better at because, yanno, their dh wants to have final say and he happens to be a moron. Exactly! Who wants a man whose, well, manhood is so tied up in how others submit to him?! It strikes me as very insecure.

I have to say that if my dh (who is a pretty hardline atheist so it's unlikely, but still...) came home with a book written by the Pearl's I'd answer with divorce papers and a restraining order. But then the Pearls advocate hitting babies. I'm never surprised at the insane things they say. Just disgusted.

There are more socially minded countries that do, to an extent, believe this and it seems to work out well for all involved.

Nor should you have to. I'm sorry that peoples cruelty hurt you. It reflects upon them, not you.