dereksurfs
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Posts posted by dereksurfs
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Oh yeah? Then I must've looked right past them! Thank you for the info. On a side note, ds got all of his graphing inequalities correct today! Woot!
That's great to hear Stephanie! It sounds like he's really digging in and working through the new and challenging concepts.
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Does tablet class cover multivariable expressions or irrational numbers? I need to look more closely at their syllabus closely. I also recall seeing a video on functions, but don't see it in Algebra 1.Perhaps that's an Algebra 2 topic for him.
Yes, Chapter 12 covers Functions.
Generally speaking a table of contents can only give so much information and many times specific details such as these can only be found when looked up.
Although 'multi-variable expression' is not stated in the TOC it is typically implied when Expressions and Multi-Variable Equations are covered. For example in TabletClass Pre-Algebra Chapter 3 (Real Numbers/Simplifying Variable Expressions) multi-variable expressions are addressed such as: 4x²y - 3xy² + 2x²y² (this really made my son think! :tongue_smilie:) and also using distribution as in: 4xy(3 - x). Then later with Polynomials: (2a + b )(a - 2b)(4a² + 3b²). These are examples from the Pre-A class since I don't have the TC Algebra class yet. In addition multi-variable equations are used throughout which consist of two 'expressions' connected by an equals sign such as a quadradic equation: y = ax² + bx + c.
Irrational numbers are typically covered in the section dealing with Radical Expressions. Foerster places them here for example.
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For those interested I put together a spreadsheet comparing the Scope & Sequence of three well known textbooks I picked up in preparation for Algebra. This includes AoPS Intro to Algbera, Foerster Algebra 1 (1999), Dolciani Algebra 1 (1992), and TabletClass:
https://docs.google....cFE&usp=sharing
We are using TabletClass now for Pre-A and will most likely continue with it into Algebra 1 in combination with one or more of these texts.
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Halcyon,
You got me thinking about the S&S of Algebra 1 more. I was planning to take a look soon myself after picking up 3 other excellent Algbera 1 texts. So I put together a spreadsheet comparing them along with TabletClass. You can see it here: https://docs.google....cFE&usp=sharing
While it doesn't go into the details of each chapter it gives a pretty good overview of the material covered.
Enjoy,
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Are you meaning worksheets for TC or Kahn Academy?
TC has the example sets and at the end of the chapter there is a practice lesson.
There are no "worksheets" that go with Kahn that I know of....although that would be nice!
Stephanie,
Khan actually does have problems which your dc can work online. I'm not sure you are aware of these. But they have been especially helpful when we wanted to really focus on a certain area more like linear equations for example:
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That sounds good Halcyon.
Here is the link to the new Demo site which John created which I mentioned in the other thread as well:
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I posted this another thread for those who are interested. John Zimmerman, the author, created a new Demo site where you can try it out. See below.
Hi Derek,
We removed the free trial but we will be adding a free demo- the link is below. Also I gave you a link to a homeschool blog I’m creating with all TabletClass lesson videos- this will be my main focus going forward to help homeschoolers everywhere please feel free to pass the link on. My blog is not quite finished but is does have all the lesson videos posted and gives anyone interested in TabletClass a great first look at what the courses offer.
All the best!
John
http://www.tabletcla...efaultdemo.aspx
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Halcyon,
As I stated in the other thread it has been going great for us so far. ds11 has learned more this year and has been challenged more than any other. ds11 is ~ 90% independant using it. I help him whenever he has questions. I can highly recommend it.
I sent John Zimmerman your question last night and he already responded. See below.
Hi Derek,
We removed the free trial but we will be adding a free demo- the link is below. Also I gave you a link to a homeschool blog I’m creating with all TabletClass lesson videos- this will be my main focus going forward to help homeschoolers everywhere please feel free to pass the link on. My blog is not quite finished but is does have all the lesson videos posted and gives anyone interested in TabletClass a great first look at what the courses offer.
All the best!
John
http://www.tabletcla...efaultdemo.aspx
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Stephanie, I'm glad to help. I think your ds in right on track - slow and steady wins the race! Just let him know 'its ok' when he hits something hard and really works at getting it. Reassure him that he is doing 'Real Algebra' now and that's why it is so hard! But his hard work will definately pay off when next year rolls around and he's already seen 80-90% of these concepts in his Algebra 1 course. Its a 'better early than late' approach to mental suffering/struggling. He's building up his cognitive muscles and it hurts and that's great. :D
Show him his current TC course in comparison to Algebra 1 TC and he'll see all that he is learning right now: http://www.tabletcla...es/algebra.aspx
While ds11 is naturally good at math I think, he's no genius either. He has to work very hard to move ahead. TabletClass has really challenged him this year like no other. I see him struggling and trying harder than he ever has before, bringing his 'A' game to the math table. And that's all can I really ask of him or any program for that matter. We both like TC and will probably continue with it into Algebra1. But Algebra 1 is also where I plan to slow things down for him. Since he is young I am considering two years of Algebra 1 starting with TC and continuing with AoPS, Dolciani or Foerster. I want his Algebra skills to be rock solid before moving into other higher level courses. If he works extra hard now I think the other classes will follow more easily later since they all build upon these algebraic concepts. ;)
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Thanks derek. Have you compared the S&S to Lials/Dolciani or any other trxt? I started comparing tablet class to dolciani tonight but if you've already done the work......... :)
Also, how is it graded? Is HW submitted? Or is the parent responsible for that? Are there quizzes? Thanks for answering!
Well, I did for Pre-A which we are taking right now. The S&S was on par with the others and covered a bit more than most. For example the Linear Equations section went into slope intercept and point slope intercept. There is a chapter on Systems and the Quadradic Equation is also introduced. I haven't looked as much at Algebra 1 S&S yet, though I'm confident in the rigor based on our experience. The teacher is also big on developing curriculum which meets or exceeds the common core standards which I like very much.
Overall I'd say its a very well put together program which we'll probably continue with into Algebra 1. Though I also purchased AoPS, Dolciani and Foerster. :tongue_smilie: I plan to use a combination of these resources over an extended period for Algebra 1. I think its great to let TC do the heavy lifting presenting the difficult concepts in clear lessons. Then concepts can be further elaborated upon and explored with these great suppliments if/when desired.
Their math work is all handwritten just like in a regular math class. So you can grade it or have your child do that if you trust him. ds11 grades his own work. There are tests at the end of every chapter which covers all of the material in the chapter.
Here is an answer to your last Q which is similar to one I also asked John:
"Yes, I am planning a Pre-Calculus course but it would not be ready until next year. Our Algebra 2 program is pretty intense (I would consider it a more advance algebra or algebra 2 honors) so it’s perfect for college bound technical majors."
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I can speak to both as we've tried both and ended up liking TabletClass much more.
After reading all the reviews of KB it sounded promising. So we signed up for the demo and it was during this phase we realized it wasn't for us. There was no solutions manual and only the answer to every other problem which we didn't like. Then in following up with customer service it turned out that while they had a solutions manual they do not make it available to homeschoolers. Rather it is reserved for public and private schools. I got the sense that homeschoolers are lower priority for them. Furthermore the customer support didn't seem that knowledgeable about their products when we had specific questions.
Tablet class offers more of a real 'class' experience vs. online math games, etc... Basically you listen to high quality, thorough lessons in 10-20 minute bite sized segments. Then you work problem sets increasing in difficulty writing them out on paper. In addition TabletClass by contrast offers full solutions to all questions with video instructions to solve them. The author, John Zimmerman, is *very* helpful in answering any and all questions I've asked him. He makes homeschoolers a priority and it shows. So while the class isn't live he is very good about responding to students. BTW, I found Derek Owens to have to same responsive, thoughtful approach. In terms of rigor I would say its pretty challenging. The problems in the more difficult sets have been on par with other programs such as AoPS which we used as supplimental. Though AoPS is still champ of the toughest problems. In comparing to the Dolciani Pre-A text I would say it goes a bit deeper offering more advanced concepts earlier on. Though I agree that the Dolciani book is good as well. It is not spiral though concepts build upon previous ones taught.
I would also recommend looking into Derek Owens which was our second choice.
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Hi Stephanie,
Yes, we are doing TabletClass and I can confirm that it is rigorous. The author takes a sooner is better approach I think which 'introduces' many algebraic concepts earlier on. Personally, I like this and prefer for ds11 to struggle a bit more now at this earlier stage. By the time he finishes this class I know he will be very well prepared for any Algebra 1 course. It is definately more challenging than MUS Pre-A which we started with. The overall course provides more breadth and depth than most Pre-A programs I think. But there are others like this as well including AoPS which is actually a bit more challenging I think. We have supplimented with AoPS and Khan when hitting more difficult material to present things from another perspective and solidify concepts. That really does help. The other thing we do is *slow down* when its obviously more difficult subject matter. Its ok to change pace as you go. As a general rule we try to do two example sets per day and we're over half way through now. I would recommend slowing down and supplimenting when things get harder, linear equations being one such area.
If you have any more specific questions I would be happy to try to answer them. At this stage I recommend working through the material vs. switching again. He is going to have to learn the same things no matter which program he's in. Easier now with MUS, TT, etc... just means harder later when he gets into Algebra. Some struggling is ok, necessary in fact. It actually develops his ability to persevere with harder problems and more difficult concepts.
Hope this helps some,
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BJU Life Science seems to get good reviews. I would look into that more if we weren't planning on using Rainbow Science instead which is a 2 year program.
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This, and look at RightStart and CLE.
We're very happy with CLE as well after some problems with MUS. It's gentle spiral approach is very helpful for kids who may struggle otherwise.
I do however agree with looking at some underlying issues. Sometimes its not the program at all, but rather maturity and the lack of desire to do anything which requires some mental wrestling or sustained focus.
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I highly recommend Game Maker's Apprentice which we did when ds11 was 10.
This is copied from another thread in which I answered the same basic question:
I'm teaching my son to program in Java currently. There are many great resources available from free to reasonably priced.
Computer Science like many of the sciences is best learned by interacting with it, hence the lab portion (programming). Python and Java are really popular programming languages to start with, though Java is more powerful. In the beginning simply learning logic flow and patterns are a great place to start. Seeing how the pieces fit together is very helpful. That is why programs like Scratch and Game Maker are taking off as educational tools. Game Maker's Apprentice is the first book I started my son with when he was 10. He finished the book and built all the games using the Game Maker tool.
Next we did this very practical tutorial series which I recommend your son trying. Its entitled Java for the Absolute Beginner:
After that we went on to this fantastic free educational tool called Greenfoot. This is a powerful tool for both teaching programming fundamentals and making some cool games. It's used by quite a few college and university CS departments in teaching programming. Java is used:
http://www.greenfoot.org/overview
http://blogs.kent.ac.uk/mik/category/joy-of-code/page/2/
There are too many beginning programming courses and additional tutorials available to list. But here are a few more:
http://www.artofprob...rse_id=cs:intro
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We have the Zaccaro text along with a variety of other Pre-A and Algebra books. I find it falls strongly into the Pre-Algeba category. Depending on which Pre-A program you use I would introduce it part of the way through. IMO, the best thing to do is to order the book *before* you start Pre-A and look it over. Then when you feel your dd is ready begin the first chapter and start working through it. You could do this lets say one or two days a week while going through the pre-A spine program in parallel. Or ~ 1/3 or 1/2 way through pre-A stop and focus on the book only. Starting it right after Zeta may be too much of a stretch since MUS doesn't include much algebraic thought or topics before its pre-A course. So equations and the more abstract math would all be 'new concepts' for the most part. And of course negative numbers have not been covered yet either. I recommend beginning those things first.
I have not used TT but have read many reviews on it comparing it with MUS. I have also talked with parents in our HS groups who use it. The general consesus is that TT is ~ one grade level behind in terms of its S&S and MUS is little bit ahead of that. I also know quite a few families on this forum who have used MUS Algebra 1 as their 'pre-A' before moving on to another more standard Algebra 1 program.
With regards to the tests there are certain knowledge areas which are expected once one completes an Algebra 1 course. And some of those I find missing in MUS such as the lack of covering Quadradic Equations among other things. When evaluating a math program I have to ask the question, what did the authors base their curriculum decisions upon including its S&S? That is one of the things which I like about TabletClass. John Zimmerman, the author, took these core standards into account when developing his program. Here is a quote from him when I asked him about this:
"All states “had†their own standards a few years ago but many (over half now) have switched to the common core curriculum national standards. The common core standards are a federal standard and all states will be using them eventually."
You can look over the common core standards comparing them with whatever math program's S&S you are considering for High School: http://www.corestand...h Standards.pdf
Based on these standards I think supplementing would be very beneficial for both MUS and TT. Otherwise they may encounter concepts on a test not yet covered in their Algebra 1 programs, postponed instead for later courses to follow (e.g. Algebra 2 and beyond).
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Thanks for the additional information which help to clarify your goals for your children.
With regards to MUS I did use the first ~ 4-5 chapters of Pre-A before our transition to another program. Like you, I was a bit concerned about this, especially since MUS was all he had ever known from Primer through Zeta. And as you are likely aware MUS's S&S is quite different from other more traditional programs. So I wanted to cover topics which may not have been addressed such as negative numbers to avoid gaps. Once he completed those chapters he and I were both ready for a change. During that time I demo'd and evaluated half a dozen or more programs. I also included him in the selection process which I think smoothed the transition to TabletClass which we both liked the most.
The reason that we did not continue with MUS was primarily two-fold. First, he was really ready for a change and expressed this desire. Second, I wanted something which was more standards based in terms of S&S. In comparing the S&S of MUS with standard Pre-Algebra and Algebra 1 programs I found it lacking certain common topics/concepts. In addition ds11 is good with math and I did want something more challenging and in-depth. He shows interest in STEM careers and I want to best prepare him for that. I felt that MUS was on the 'light' side and as such wasn't the greatest fit for him beyond the elementary years. That said I know some love and use MUS all the way through. So I'm not discounting that. However it's simply not the best fit for him based on our educational goals. For our daughters I'm not sure yet as they are still young. But I do know MUS wasn't a good fit for them. They do better with spiral in the elementary years. So we switched them to CLE and they are doing much better overall.
I would recommend focusing on one child at a time as they are all different with a variety of skills and interests. Maybe MUS would be fine for your dd all the way through and then not so much for your sons depending on their goals and interests. Much depends on the child as they all learn differently. While there are many great programs out there the key is finding what works best for them and still fulfills your educational goals. Even if you do stay with MUS you could always supplement with another program to cover core standard gaps in S&S when it comes to testing. Quite a few families use a variety of materials to balance things out adding breadth as well as depth to their math programs as you did with CWP.
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There are a lot of great programs out there. So I'm sure you'll get a variety of advice. Based on your goal for practical application I would start with Real World Algebra by Zacarro. This book is a good primer and suppliment to Algebraic topics to come. Its supplimental to whatever main (spine) program you select.
Finding a program that addresses the 'whys' will be a bit more challenging and comes with other considerations. For example one of the most well known for this AoPS. However it is also known to be one of th most rigorous programs. It is geared toward those who 'love' doing math and struggling with the most difficult problems. Their 'Discovery Approach' does not work for everyone. But it's at least worth considering. We are considering it for our oldest ds11 after he finishes Pre-A. They have online lessons which correspond with the books here: http://www.artofprob...pe=introalgebra
You didn't mentioned other important considerations like if you plan to lecture/teach the lessons? Or are you looking for lessons/lectures provided? That will help narrow the field. Another very good Algebra 1 program that comes to mind is Foerster. This book is well known for great word problems, though its not as theoretical as AoPS. You can combine it with Math without Borders lectures for a thorough coverage of the subject matter.
ds11 also used MUS exclusively before Pre-A. He is really enjoying TabletClass Pre-Algebra right now. I think its great preparation for more challenging Algebraic concepts to come. I'm especially happy with its S&S along with the thorough video lessons. Its designed around Core Standards which standardized tests are also based upon. Though I wouldn't say it focuses heavily on the 'whys'. That's where you could suppliment with Zacarro. BTW, I wouldn't recommend MUS Pre-A which we started out with. I didn't care for its limited S&S.
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After looking over the S&S I'm not sure what I would do if we continue with CLE for Pre-Algebra. While I agree there is some overlap between 7 & 8, I wouldn't want to skip something important either. For example if one skipped 710 they would miss the intro lesson to graphing linear equations, though without the book its hard to tell how thorough that is. Then if CLE 8 was skipped entirely it would never be covered at all. Similarly the Pythagorean Theorem would never be covered either which only gets introduded in CLE 802.
I would most likely use a combination of CLE 7 & 8 if we go this route for Pre-A since many of the Pre-A concepts in CLE 802-807 are not covered in CLE 7. I probably would skip the trig and consumer math toward the end of CLE 8. That can wait.
I guess we'll wait and see. While our girls really like CLE for the elementary years, ds11 is really enjoying TabletClass Pre-A right now. So that will be a consideration for them as well. We also have the Dolciani and Lial Pre-A textbooks to compare.
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Interesting! We always skip the -01 LU, but I never would have thought of skipping the others.
I'll also add that my ds is in LU 708 and I had him take the diagnostic test for Lial's BCM, which is considered a pre-algebra course. He knew everything on that test except for two things - weighted mean and a geometry calculation my husband says he would have had to know the pythagorean theorum in order to solve. So, I'm thinking it's probably possible for most to go into algebra straight from CLE 7.
That's good to hear Pastel. Based on this and your other thread it sounds like BCM would be redundant.
Regarding Pre-Algebra courses I will say that scope and sequence varies quite a lot. Some programs introduce more challenging algebraic concepts earlier on. For example AoPS, Dolciani and TabletClass among others go into multivariable linear equations and graphing. I'm not saying some the more advanced topics are absolutely necessary in Pre-A. But since I felt my son was ready for them I wanted a bit more rigorous S&S. That's why I moved him out of MUS Pre-A.
I haven't looked at the S&S of CLE 7 or 8 yet. But I wonder if they get into some of these more challenging subjects including those with formulas/theorems?
Ok, I just tried to look this up on their website. Yet I'm finding it more difficult than other Pre-A programs to determine S&S, specifically for CLE 7 & 8. There is a very 'general' description here: http://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4. But I can't find a more detailed S&S for each year and light unit. Actually just a list of the light unit lessons would be fine, like a table of contents. I may have to write them and ask for that.
Wait, I think I just found it here: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf Looking it over...
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I would buy at least one new computer/laptop, but more likely two if money will be tight for the next ~ 5 years, not just iPads. As you mentioned tablets definately have their limitations, though they are enjoyable. You will need a decent computer and they will need one as well as a minimum to avoid a lot of frustration. Our kids use their tablets for reading primarily along with some fun apps. But they actually take classes on the computer, learn to program, type their papers there along with a whole host of other things that they would never do on their tablets. With three kids ages 6-11 one comptuer 'for them' is no longer enough. So I bought my wife a new laptop and they got her older one. Also note that tablets in general are really coming down in price. I know many are die hard Apple fans. But if you could get a Kindle or equivalent Android based tablet for ~ $100 do they really need the iPad and will they really notice the difference? Our youngest dd6 is 'saving' for her Android based tablet. The others got them (Nooks) at birthday/holiday times and really enjoy them.
Laser printers are also very useful as well as color inkjets for certain things, though not as essential. The inkjets are more prone to have problems and cost more to maintain.
Do you have any musical instruments? Our piano, though expensive, was a great investment in their musical education.
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Jann really helped one of my sons. We used her as a tutor twice a week. We also had success with LiveOnlineMath for another ds. Like Jann's services, there are tutors, as well as live classes.
If you go the online route, I would recommend a live class. That way, your dd can ask questions as soon as she has them. Ds13 uses Derek's Algebra, which has pre-recorded lessons. DS really enjoys it, but if there is a question, a student has to be proactive and email the teacher. Not all kids will do that.
I would definitely not skip on to geometry this year. In fact, I would take algebra slowly. Two years, if necessary.
Best wishes!
Great advice from Lisabees, especially regarding Algebra 1 which is the basis for all higher level math. Two years is a good idea, especially for those struggling with it. Its really that important to understand vs. simply survive.
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Learning challenging algebraic concepts from a traditional textbook 'only' such as Dolciani (my old Algebra text btw) does not work for most student. In fact those textbooks are really student workbooks designed to be supplemented by classroom lessons which eleborate on the concepts 'briefly' addressed in the book. I agree with Regentrude that a teacher can really help your dd. There are many options including online courses, those with full lectures live or recorded and tutoring options. I would as a minimim look for something with lectures explaining these concepts to her. Here are a few good ones, though there are many more:
Derek Owens
Jann in texas
TabletClass
Math without Borders/ Foerster
Khan Academy as supplemental
AoPS Algebra videos
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We are very happy with CLE for both our dds. They started with MUS and weren't retaining things. But with the gentle spiral of CLE things have been really going well. We've never considered Saxon. So I cannot comment on the differences, though I've read quite a few reviews comparing/contrasting them both. Here's one: http://forums.welltr...on-vs-cle-math/.
Algebra Fence Straddlers Master Thread
in Logic Stage & Middle Grade Challenges
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That sounds good Halcyon. Hopefully the lessons combined with their problem sets work well for him.