dereksurfs
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Posts posted by dereksurfs
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Interesting, thanks for sharing. Our dds are younger and moving in that direction. When first evaluating CLE I found those last two courses the most confusing because of the consumer math added in and the extension of Pre-Algebra over two years. I haven't decided fully what to do after CLE 600. But maybe some combination 700 & 800 would be a good option. I just wouldn't want to miss any important topics for Algebra 1 preparation. I know the consumer math isn't necessary though nice to cover I guess.
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We use TabletClass which I highly recommend. We started with MUS but wanted something more standards based and in depth. TabletClass provides the solutions to all the problems which are worked out by the instructor via video lessons. The lessons are very straight forward and thorough. You can demo it with him to see what he thinks. In selecting a program we demo'd Derek Owens, KineticBooks and TabletClass among others. In the end ds11 liked TabletClass and Derek Ownes the best with an edge to TabletClass. I also like it from a scope and sequence perspective as it introduces many algebraic topics earlier on. Here are some of the videos he can watch to get an idea: http://www.youtube.c...ser/tabletclass
I recommend narrowing the options to ~ 3-4 which meet your general criteria (Saxon, Derek Owens, TabletClass, etc..). Then let your ds participate in the final selection via demos/samples. I think that will at least provide him with more of a sense of ownership vs. feeling like something is thrust upon him which he hates/dislikes.
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I was going to suggest morning gym time as well until you described the social aspect of the gym. The 2.5 hours of gym time is definately a luxury and really is his/your free time. To fully enjoy that, sacrifice in other areas must occur. Getting school done *before* the gym would be the ideal IMO. I just don't see how one can be both a late starter and an early finisher. Something has to give. Removing the morning excercise is a good first step. I would try harder to shave at least 20-30 minutes off the gym if at all possible. Maybe swim one day and do other exercises the next (treadmill, etc...). You could leave later that way and get more school work accomplished first. Most kids who do sports in school like swim team, volleyball, track, wrestling, etc... do them before (zero period) or after school, not right in the middle. There is something to be said for sustained focused school time vs. broken pieces here and there. It takes time to focus and to really get into a groove, whether it be solving difficult math problems or writting a paper or performing a science experiment. Balancing solid academics with fun and free time can be challenging I know.
Hey, I had another thought on the exercise. How about the gym in the morning two days a week and the afternoon the other two just to try the morning exercise thing out. I found while in High School that morning exercise really invigorated me for the entire day. It really does wake you up and get the blood flowing to the brain. Of course I used to surf before school and man was that fun! :D
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I think that MUS starts prealgebra expecting the child to already KNOW basic arithmetic and TT reviews all that.
Actually MUS Pre-A goes over a lot of arithmetic as well. The only difference in chapters 1-4 is that they introduce negative numbers with basic arithmetic which some other elementary programs already do. We went through the first 4-5 chapters before switching programs to TabletClass and still own the book. There are also chapters on things like converting celcius to fahrenheit as well as military time addition and subtraction.
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Great update Pastel! I'm glad you've included your son in the decision making process and that he will have some skin in the game. ;) If you do decide to use CLE 8 next I've heard that some parents will allow their child to skim or skip certain portions since the consumer math sections are more extracurricular so to speak. They are more of a nice to have vs. gotta have in preparation for Algebra 1. In this way CLE 8 can be accelerated.
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This is a helpful overview of the first 14 chapters Sebastian. Just curious if you give them a test after the review or do you sort of count this as a final open book test?
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Well, my dd would only go straight into Algebra 1 if she moves into TT. She did TT 7 last year when she was doing CLE 4 and it was easy for her, so I'm pretty sure we'd skip TT pre-alg. If she used Saxon, she'd go into Algebra 1/2. But, Saxon integrates geometry, and the program I'm planning for my son doesn't, so by the time my son hits geometry, she'll already be starting algebra 2. My dd just picks up everything easily.
My son is a late bloomer and, I could be wrong, but my feeling is that getting his feet wet with the format of Lial's BCM would be a good idea before he starts algebra 1. I've never wanted him to start algebra before 9th because I think he will do well, but not if I start him too early. CLE 7 actualy is pre-algebra, but so is CLE 8. It's spread over 2 years. I was thinking about skipping CLE 8 and moving him into Lial's BCM for a final year of pre-alg before 9th. Honestly, I think CLE 7 will have prepared him to go into Lial's algebra, I just feel waiting with him is the right thing.
My kids both already do math over the summer and my son would probably be willing to do math on the weekends if it meant staying ahead, but what I really think he needs is time. Maybe I'm wrong and should let him try algebra?
Thanks!
This makes more sense now. At least I understand the different approaches taken.
For ds I would consider two years of Algebra over two years of Pre-Algebra and basic math. As a minimim if you decide for another year of Pre-A I recommend introducing algebraic topics vs. simply more arithmetic (decimals, percents, etc...). This does two important things:
1. It helps build a mental bridge to more difficult and challenging abstract algebraic problems to come.
2. It allows him to build his confidence gradually while not feel so far behind his peers and siblings.
Many recommend two years of Algebra 1 anyway as it really is the foundation for all higher level math. I think this is especially true if a child has some learning disabilities. There are a number of ways to go about this. Many start with an easier Algebra 1 such as MUS or TT. Then take something more standards based and challenging the second year. If this were my son that is what I would do. Give him more breathing room where he really will need it - in Algebra. If still uncertain for him then at least introduce Algebraic concepts one day a week for example. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. This can provide motivation to finish up basic primary math and learn the 'big kid' stuff. You can build up his self-esteem this way, gradually, slowing down where needed.
For dd I would not place her in TT. While a fine program for some it is not the greatest for someone who is gifted and gets things easily. If a math program is 'easy' for a child that is typically not a good thing. They need to be mentally challenged to grow and learn - that just right challenge. For her I would look for something more rigorous as was mentioned by regentrude. Think college prep or honors math. TT and AoPS opposite ends of the spectrum from challenging to easy math. There are a lot of options in between. If AoPS wasn't the best fit for whatever reason I would also look at these:
Foerster Algebra 1 with Math w/o Borders DVDs
TabletClass - we are using Pre-A now and really like it
Derek Owens Algebra 1 honors
BJU Algebra 1
SM would probably be fine as well. Though I haven't researched it. I just like the other options available.
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I don't quite get why you feel your dd would be ready to jump right into Algebra 1 from CLE 7 next year, but your son will only go into BCM or Pre-A? Are you holding him back or accelerating her differently for some reason? I've heard some jump right from CLE 7 to Algebra 1, though some use CLE 8 as well beforehand.
If DS is motivated to 'stay ahead' I'd recommend adding a Pre-A supplimental now. For example include BCM or something else once a week. I had ds11 do that before finishing elementary math using MUS Pre-A once a week. It got him thinking about more abstract math concepts and added a degree of challenge for him. Another suppliment he may like is Real World Algebra by Zaccaro which is mostly Pre-A level. You could extend this into the Summer as a possibilty. Then he will be ready to go right to Algebra 1 next year.
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Same here (including husband banning some texts for that reason). If Rainbow ISN'T yec, I would love to know. It would certainly make my life easier.
FTR, Kolbe uses secular books and, while the books are best of the best PUBLIC SCHOOL texts (Holt is a middle school text they use), they write lesson plans, discussion topics, assignments, AND homeschool friendly labs for it. While Kolbe is Catholic, it is VERY easy to secularize until high school.
I would be interested in this as well. From what I've read Rainbow is more hands on and less "theory" in general. So I'm not sure how much they would actually get into these topics. If its short and light it may be very easy to skim over or skip all together. Although we're not opposed to at least presenting YEC in general, I would prefer discussions on OEC as well. I also wouldn't want a program that went into it excessively vs. focusing on the science topics themselves.
IMO, It would be good to find out more about this before discounting Rainbow altogether. For example I found a good thread on this YEC/OEC question and some responses which indicate a variety of views being presented. I found this experience by Brenda in MA indicative of more of a balanced approach:
"I do not find the author to be Young Earth at all. I found his approach to be respectful in acknowledging God as creator while not espousing any particular theology. My take is that he is Old Earth, but that's just a guess from having read the book several times. He does discuss Darwinism a bit, and I think that no matter what your beliefs, it's important to know that there are other beliefs out there and what they are. Darwinism is not treated as fact in Rainbow Science as it is in a lot of secular science books." -- http://forums.welltr...-hows-it-going/
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My two choices are MCP and Saxon only.
Do you own them both already or something? If so one way to answer some of your questions regarding best fit is to test drive each one with your dd. Getting feedback from the child also helps them get a sense of ownership and participation in the process.
Another consideration is that MCP does not seem to reflect the national standards for math. S&S are a bit behind grade level instruction. -- http://cathyduffyrev...th/mcp-math.htm
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If she really needs the repetition but Saxon doesn't work out CLE is very good as an alternative for spiral. Our girls really enjoy it.
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Thanks all for your input and sharing your experiences. I'm leaning more toward Rainbow Science for next year.
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You really have a lot of options at this level. I think Algebra 1 is a great jumping off point to something new, especially if your dd is ready for a change from Saxon. Of course having solid Arithmetic and Pre-A skills are important first as was mentioned. Here are a few great programs for Algebra 1 which come highly recommended:
TabletClass: We are using this currently and the full instructions are very clear and thorough. It also includes the solutions to the problems 'with' explanations.
Math without Borders: The Foerster text is used which is a classic Algebra 1 textbook along with full instructions via DVDs
Derek Owens: Many families here have recommended his classes though they are somewhat on the more expensive side
Bob Jones U Algebra 1
Jann in Texas Algebra 1
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He's using Alif-Baa and Al-Kitab The DVDs are a real pain, but there is a companion website that we have subscribed to that is much better. Ds is hoping to test into Arabic 2 at our local cc after this. He is using their syllabus and touches base with the instructor periodically.
BTW, the timed access to wifi is working beautifully. The kids have wifi for an hour in the morning, all evening after 4pm and weekends (within reason) so they are not complaining... AT ALL! I think at least one son knew he was having a problem.
Glad to hear it. It sounds like you found a middle ground that all can be happy with. ;)
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That sure is a lot! I like all the choices. Do they help you choose according to your students needs?
Yes, based on my discussions with them they try to tailor their program for the individual child and use assessment tools to help with this.
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That's what I'm hoping for.
However, I told dd that we were thinking about dropping ALEKS and just doing CLE tonight, and she had a meltdown! She wants to drop CLE and just do ALEKS. I finally realized that we have a major psychological thing going on here. According to ALEKS, she's just a year behind, but in CLE it's 2 years. I think CLE is the better program, though, so I'm not willing to drop it. We may have to keep them both after all!
Well, if she doesn't mind doing them both, then like they saying goes 'if it aint broke don't fix it.' :D
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Thanks so much. I'm experimenting with this now. It looks like I can set-up certain times wifi is available for each computer. I think it will limit wireless printing outside of those times, but I can live with that. We'll see what it does to Rosetta Stone.
This is great. If you're router accepts IP addresses you can include the IP address of your wireless printer as well.
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What I have been seeing in my own sons is a tendency to struggle with thinking unless they are sitting at a computer. A tendency to skim past prewriting stages and go directly to paragraphs and whole papers. This doesn't necessarily lend itself to well reasoned arguments.
I also think that the ability to sweep ones paper for spelling and grammar errors may lead to not printing it out and combing it for errors. I graded essays for my coop lit class over the holidays. Most were pretty good. But a good number of them contained sentences that just did not make sense. In my own writing (academic and magazine articles) what I've found useful was to start in one mode, then switch to the other, revise and extend. So I might start with writing the first several paragraphs, with a framework of the rest of the article or essay on paper. Then I would type up what I had roughed out, editing as I went. Then keep writing on the computer until I peetered out. Then I would print what I had and look it over, red pen in hand. When I got to the end, I would just keep writing on the bottom and back of the pages. Repeat until complete.
I also think that there have been several studies that show people overestimate their effeciency at multitasking (espectially on a computer).
I'm not a throw the computer out Luddite. But I do think that it has facilitated a lot of lazy thinking.
That's fine. I think we all come to the computer from a different frame of reference. Our experiences such as you've described in your own writings help to shape how we perceive it as a tool to do work. In my work as a software engineer the thought of 'not' using a computer would be ludicrous. It's apart of the job itself.
In terms of writing I have composed many professional papers as well as all of my work during my master’s degree from the computer. I've never felt hampered by it or the need to write things down on paper first. While the 'steps' may vary (e.g. rough draft first) along with their multiple iterations the computer has always been a simple tool to put the ideas down. I also really hated the use of typewriters in school when typewritten assignments were required back in the stone ages. I remember the white out and how rigid and unforgiving typewriters were. Then when word processors came out they were truly a God send and typewriters became instantly obsolete for me. Finally the pc came and was like a word processor on steroids. I've thoroughly enjoyed them ever since. Yet I still know 'good people' who don't even own a pc and would only use one if required to at work. That's just another perspective or paradigm when it comes to technology. However I don't meet too many younger people like that. Composing right at the computer for example is perfectly normal and natural for them. And I really don't see that changing even if parents try to get them to handwrite things first while still at home.
Research is another huge area of growth with the availability of the internet. I recall countless hours of time I spent running around to different libraries to research a topic for school or other interests. Remember microfiche? They have so much more available to them online. Does that make them lazier now? I think it could depending on how thoroughly they research something if/when that is required. But in the past the equivalent would be to just use the first article or book one could find on a subject that came along. While the means to get data has changed, the methods which go into putting together a paper really haven't. Times are completely different both scholastically and professionally speaking. This forum is a another great example of information which simply wasn't available to our parents. Are we lazier than them because of it? Maybe, but that still doesn't diminish its value to us now.
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Sebastian, et al, I'm not advocating using the computer constantly, unmonitored, just to be clear. However I don't think closing it automatically leads to better thinking or a better work process either. As mentioned once in college and the workplace it is just 'a part' of one's overall process in getting work done. We, along with most HS parents I think, monitor computer and internet usage depending on the various cases JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst included among others.
I also think there can be a tendancy to overreact to kids 'using that computer again' from older generations. Its a fine line in balancing out practical uses in HSing vs.not. Different families will have different guidelines.
Unplugging the network is a low tech solution to limiting internet usage, but as MommyThrice mentioned it shuts everyone else down as well. Maybe that's ok for some. There are other ways to more selectively restrict access. For example our router has IP Filtering which allows only certain IP addresses access. It is very easy to set up a 'white list' in this case and turn it on and off within seconds. So when turned off all can access the internet and when turned on (filtering enabled) only mom and dad have access for example. Along with that we keep computers in open homeschool areas where they are easy to monitor which helps quite a bit. Ditto on the no facebook, twitter, etc... Though they are still young and I imagine over time we will loosen the reigns before they are out on their own and off to college, work, etc...
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IMO, I would say don't fight it. Many kids have online curriculum among other things. Once he's in college and the workplace it will be the same thing. That's just the way people do things nowadays. Its all integrated into the computer. And the workplaces that aren't desperately need to be, hospitals being a prime example of this. I don't think many people write scholastic, professional papers or books with paper and pencil or pen anymore. Of course there will be the old timers who just prefer paper vs. a computer. But I think that generation is moving into retirement giving way to the newer 'connected' Y, Z, etc... generations. Of course that's my bias as an IT guy. But in school even 13 years ago when finishing my masters degree I did the majority of work on the computer. In fact our classrooms were wired with interent connections, similar to the work environment.
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A friend bought his at Staples. Why not just Google's store?
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Update: It turns out that they did get back to me. Joel was the rep. But his emails were going to junk mail. So here is a listing of some of their curriculum they use which they also said gets updated frequently as they add more options:
"...
ACE
Aleks
Alpha/Omega Publications (Switched-on-Schoolhouse)
Cretical Thinking Co.
Evan Moore
Horizons
Paradigm
Rosetta Stone
Singapore
Apologia
Steck Vaughn
Peace Hill Press
Pearson
Easy Grammar
Life of Fred
Saxon
Walch
Tell Me More
Write Source
Zeane-Blosser
Worldly Wise
Mind Leaders
Oxford University Press
This list, while not entirely exhaustive, is definitely representative...
Also, as far as STEM students are concerned, we offer Saxon, Apologia, Pearson for Math and Science. While we don't really have any engineering, we do offer AP Calc and Physics - and Advanced Physics through Apologia, as well as Compass Learning, through which we also offer AP Calc, as well as Chem, Physics, Bio etc."
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We dropped MUS after pre-algebra. Don't get me wrong, it's a lovely program and explains things very well. I'm glad we did through pre-algebra. That said, I didn't like the look of the upper levels. When I read over the scope for algebra and geometry, only about half the material was new. It moved very slowly and gently, just like the younger books, but it didn't feel like the depth was there. We ended up dropping it in favor of a different algebra program to go deeper.
We also dropped MUS after Pre-Algebra, actually during Pre-A. The reason for this was that I wanted a stronger, more in-depth program which covered a greater S&S in preparation for Algebra 1. However I am planning a more rigorous path for ds11. So I think it really depends on the student. I know on the High School forum others have used both MUS and TT all the way through and seem happy with them. It really depends on your goals and the direction the student may be headed. I think in general terms you have AoPS on one end of the spectrum with TT & MUS on the other in terms of easy-difficult for these secondary years. Then you have a lot of programs in between.
Its not clear if you are looking for more of a conceptual program or one which is somewhat lighter or both? AoPS for example is very conceptual but also very challenging, sometimes more than necessary depending on the students goals. It also includes the discovery approach which takes time for a student to wrap their brains around.
BTW, we use and highly recommend TabletClass as an independent program. Though more challenging than MUS the instruction is excellent and very thorough. It goes up through Algebra 2 currently and I believe the author has plans to create Pre-Calc and Calc as well. IMO, at this level its alright to use more than one program as long as you are aware of the S&S of the prior when looking to the next level. In the same way most public/private schools use different curriculum depending on the subject and the same is true in college.
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Has anyone heard back from Bridgeway on specific questions regarding types of curriculum used? I called and spoke with a customer service rep who was very friendly. Though I did have a hard time getting details/specifics about specific courses. For example a typical question I asked was "what curriculum do you use for AP Calculus?" Though friendly the rep he was unable to answer the question and I haven't heard back.
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CLE or Math-U-See....Please help me decide
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
We have used both MUS and CLE and I would *not* recommend swtiching because of long division. There were areas with MUS which were not being retained for our dds which improved with the use of CLE. So we switched from MUS to CLE for two of our three children. The S&S are quite a bit different. I would agree with others in supplementing instead at this point. When a difficult concept is encountered hearing things from 'another' perspective can really help clarify what is being taught. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You will find this to be even more true as your dc start moving through more advanced topics. There is no need to change programs each time something difficult is encountered or it doesn't quite make sense. We use Khan and AoPS to suppliment algebraic concepts being covered in ds11's TabletClass Pre-A program and that works great. There is something to be said for consistency, especially when other things have been working fine.