dereksurfs
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Posts posted by dereksurfs
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Many AoPS users have commented recently on issues with AoPS Pre-A being overly complicated:
http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/454440-q-for-aops-users/
You should at least take this into consideration before jumping in too quickly. Many such as Ruth in NZ have used the other more advanced texts with their children. I'm still considering AoPS for ds11. But we've used another Pre-A (TabletClass) and I'm not planning on introducing it until Algebra 1. I've already picked up the intro to Algebra book and like what I see so far.
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How much review is incorporated in the TabletClass course? Is review incorporated into the sets or does the student have to find what they need to review and go back to it on their own?
Aimee, TabletClass's lessons build upon each other as most algebraic concepts do. So the way I look at it is review is built-in every time he gets to the next level. For example my son is currently doing polynomials. But way back in the beginning he was learning about single and multi-step equations. So as he progresses he continues to use the same concepts learned earlier and thru this use it acts as review. Also at the end of every chapter there are review notes and extra practice problems to review the concepts before they take the chapter test. I find the chapter tests to be great tools for evaluating retention and understanding of concepts. If more were missed in a particular area we go back and review over those concepts. And if something is especially tricky we slow down and also supplement with Khan and AoPS.
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If she would like Jacobs more then why not give it a shot? The book is pretty inexpensive and you could always supplement with online lectures from Khan or other sources - see below. I wouldn't limit it to 'only' TT or Jacobs as you and she may discover that a combination of things works best. My wife is in the same boat during the day. She wants to outsource Algebra 1 and beyond. I usally help answer questions after work. But still its nice to have the detailed lessons covered and also to have support when needed.
One worth mentioning which is very homeschool friendly is TabletClass. My son uses it this year for Pre-A along with Khan and AoPS as supplemental. You could use their vary straight forward Algebra 1 lessons along with the Jacobs text. Here is a demo page to check out if interested:
http://www.tabletcla...efaultdemo.aspx
Also here is a series specifically designed for the Jacobs text by Dr. Callahan: http://www.askdrcall...iculum/Algebra/
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I agree with others that is great as a supplemental. We use it as that and its works very well. Though I like the problems and the hints, I wouldn't want those to be 'the only' types of problems worked. One reason is that I prefer to have the student write out their work on paper including all the steps. Then if they miss something I can walk back through their steps and help them learn form their mistakes. Also for problems I will give partial credit if the steps were all correct, but a simple mistake was made for example. I find Khan great to use with any other curriculum as its so easy to look up the section or concept for further elaboration.
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Ok, well based on her preparation which sounds fine it would probably be ok to start with Foerster instead of TT. You can always take more time in developing the concepts in Foerster with supplementation. You can also slow down when and where needed. However you can follow Foerster's sequence as the spine. There are many great resources available to aid in concept development including Khan and AoPS videos. I also wouldn't discount LOF as a good conceptual supplement. Our babysitter who is advanced in her other subjects but has a harder time with math was just telling me tonight how much she really enjoys LOF Algebra. That's not to say your dd wouldn't benefit from TT though. But it might not be necessary since you are already planning on using Foerster with her which you have and like more.
Another option would be that you could start with something else first like LOF or Jacobs which has a lot of review. Then move into Foerster, starting with one or two days a week and increasing as skills and confidence grow.
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This is harder to answer because it depends more on your dd's preparation in Pre-A this year. What will you complete before moving into Algebra 1 and do you think it is adequate? You mentioned CLE but didn't say how far you are planning to go? CLE 700 and 800 are both considered Pre-A. Will she do these or something else? If prep is more on the weaker/lighter side then an easier Algebra 1 or more Pre-A are probably the best options.
I would pick up the Foerster book if you haven't already. Then you can get a better feel for it first hand. I picked up a relatively inexpensive copy just for a reference along with a few others such as Dolciani in prep for Algebra 1. Looking at the book it really doesn't seem too intimidating, especially when compared to other texts like AoPS for example. Once she is getting closer to being ready I would have her check it out to see what she thinks. The 'math without borders' instruction should help out a lot as well. You could always supplement vs. doing two full programs. For example you could start Foerster while weaving in LOF or something similar.
With ds11 I'm thinking of spending more time in Algebra 1. But with all these great books available I'll probably use a few in parallel like his current TabletClass along with AoPS. Maybe three days of one and two of another. This will give two different perspectives on similar subject matter.
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We have been very happy with TabletClass. Before that we used MUS. However for secondary math we wanted something more rigorous and standards based. This has been quit a jump up in challenge for ds this year. But he actually rose to the challenge. The instruction is excellent and we allow him to grade his own work as we trust him in this area. So he uses the program very independently. We like it enough to continue next into Algebra 1 as soon as he finishes Pre-A which isn't far away.
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When my wife told me she had happily scheduled a short week this week (Mon-Wed) I initially questioned it. But now I'm so glad she did. The kids got things done earlier in anticipation of a much needed break. Then they enjoyed our unseasonably warm weather playing and having fun, making cards, etc... And I realized *again* this is one of the beauties of homeschooling. You get to take time off when you and your children need it vs. when all the public schools tell you you can. As others have said don't sweat the small stuff. Maybe take a few extra days off next year during this same time as a part of your plan.
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With my first dd, I hadn't yet learned about CLE. After taking her out of ps, we used Saxon and MUS in trying to find a good fit. I also used the Calvert series when necessary to fill in gaps and teach traditional algorithms since she had come from using Everyday Math in ps. She used Foerster's for algebra 1 and did well, but did not retain all the well in the year of taking geometry. It took me too long to realized her tendency to seemingly master but not retain long term. :(
Interesting, this is one of the reasons I want to slow ds11 down once we reach Algebra 1. I am thinking of stretching Algebra 1 out over 7th and 8th grade to really solidify the concepts in his mind before moving on to more advanced subjects. Having a firm Algebraic foundation I think is vital to success in the more advanced topics. I can also see that this would be hard to detect with your oldest as she did so well in Foerster which is a really solid Algebra program. I guess review can be beneficial in more ways than one.
On a similar note I was reading a thread on the High School forum in which some were considering skipping pre-calculus and then moving directly into calculus. However much of pre-calculus reviews important algebraic concepts which help in the preparation for more intense math to follow. Sometimes the best path from A to B is the longer one.
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grrr... maybe I should wait.. I just ordered this morning.. i supposed I can return it...
Sorry. maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the new one! :tongue_smilie:
Since it won't be out until late Summer early Fall maybe it will be ok to just get the older one now. If my son hadn't heard about the new one he would have been fine with the NX2. I just don't want to spend that much $$, then have to turn around and have him want the newer one.
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We use TabletClass and really like it. Prior to TabletClass we used MUS. But once in Pre-A we wanted something with greater scope which was also more in-depth. The only caveat with TabletClass is that it is more on the rigorous side compared to other programs. So this decision depends on your individual students and what you are looking for. Some will be stronger in math than others.
Derek Owens is another great option along with Jann in Texas. BJU also has a well regarded math program, though rigorous as well. AoPS is probably the most challenging with its discovery approach. But for the right student it can work very well. You can read the reviews of these programs on the forum.
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That sounds good Tiramisu. Just out of curiosity what have you decided to use for Algebra 1 with your dd after CLE?
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Thanks for this info. ds11 is saving for a Mindstorm now and will be ready to get one for BDay in July. The only problem is that is around when the next generation EV3 is supposed to come out. So now he's interested in that one. Geesh, I wish these things weren't so expensive. But they are great learning tools. I think prices would drop if there was more competition like tablets. But for now Lego seems to be the main game in town.
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Ah yes, I was trying to remember if they get progressively harder. If they do you wouldn't want to only do the easy stuff. Rather skip the easier ones as Trillian mentioned and see how your dd does with the more challenging ones.
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My son went all the way from Primer through Zeta. I asked him as I don't recall and he said the first three (A-C) go over the lesson while the last three (D-F) are review. So he would do all of them (A-F) *if* they were tricky or if easlier just two such as 4A & 4B then one of the review like 4D. Then take the chapter test. If less than 90% was achieved on the test he went back and did another section for review to master the topics. We aimed for 90% and above and he maintained that level throughout every section and chapter.
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Let me clarify. Because my dd is a fairly strong math student (9.5 in CLE 505) I have to work to keep her challenged. With this in mind, I have always kept an eye on the placement tests to see when we can move to the next level. So far that has meant that after completing the -07 unit she has been able to move on to the new level. New concepts are taught in the later LU's, but they are retaught (often more quickly) in the next year. The OP's comments lead me to believe this is going to continue to be true.
This has been a really good decision for my dd. I only mention it in case others are in a similar boat trying to make CLE work for an accelerated student, or if someone is trying to accelerate a student who is "behind". This will probably not be the route most people want to take. I apologize for any confusion.
Thanks for the clarification Tracy which is a good point to make. We have to be careful in assuming too many sweeping generalizations for *all* children using CLE at all grade levels. The spiral nature is intended to introduce concepts then build upon them. But for those who may need less spiral, skipping can work as in your dd's case.
The other concern I have occurs as one approaches the finish line. If we assume all generalizations to be true then pre-A is reduced down to 702-707 with the 800 series skipped entirely as redundant. So toward the end of this approach quite a bit of math is left out and the Pre-A course is fairly weak and limited IMO.
I'm not saying you're proposing all these generalizations. But one has to be careful when combining them all together so that the student does not get short changed in the process. While some children are able to overcome gaps once they reach Algebra 1, for others it will be more difficult. This also depends on the rigor of the Algebra 1 which is selected including its review of Pre-A concepts. For example if Linear Equations and the Pythagorean Theorem are skipped entirely which are normally apart of Pre-A courses, will the child still do fine in Algebra?
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I highly recommend Game Maker's Apprentice which we did when ds11 was 10.
This is copied from another thread in which I answered the same basic question:
I'm teaching my son to program in Java currently. There are many great resources available from free to reasonably priced.
Computer Science like many of the sciences is best learned by interacting with it, hence the lab portion (programming). Python and Java are really popular programming languages to start with, though Java is more powerful. In the beginning simply learning logic flow and patterns are a great place to start. Seeing how the pieces fit together is very helpful. That is why programs like Scratch and Game Maker are taking off as educational tools. Game Maker's Apprentice is the first book I started my son with when he was 10. He finished the book and built all the games using the Game Maker tool.
Next we did this very practical tutorial series which I recommend your son trying. Its entitled Java for the Absolute Beginner:
After that we went on to this fantastic free educational tool called Greenfoot. This is a powerful tool for both teaching programming fundamentals and making some cool games. It's used by quite a few college and university CS departments in teaching programming. Java is used:
http://www.greenfoot.org/overview
http://blogs.kent.ac.uk/mik/category/joy-of-code/page/2/
There are too many beginning programming courses and additional tutorials available to list. But here are a few more:
http://www.artofprob...rse_id=cs:intro
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So am I gathering correctly that 607, 608, and 609 would basically be a review of the entire 6th? DD has just completed Teaching Textbooks 6, and I was thinking about getting those last three CLE for her before we got our hands on TT 7.
Hm, I am not quite sure where you gathered that information? I don't see any reference to that in this thread? Typically with CLE the math concepts are presented in a spiral fashion. So in the later sections you will get some elabortation on eariler concepts presented as well as introductions to more advanced concepts to come.
I am also one to disagree that you can 'always' skip the last section. There are times when important concepts are presented there. Of course they will mostly be elaborated on in the next year because of the spiral nature. IMO, Its better to look at it first before making that decision. Though I agree the first section is typically review, testing the previous year. With that in mind you may want to include 701 for review of 6th grade for example. Then any areas missed can be focused on needing further review. 701 would be a good place to start with for 6th grade review.
Take a look at the S&S (Page 40) and it will tell you 'specifically' what is covered in those sections. Then you will be able to best decide which are the ones to use for review: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf
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Having difficulty opening attachments
Hm, that's strange. They open right up for me. Maybe its your internet connection. If you have problems its usually best to 'Save As' to your local computer first. Then open them.
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I would caution two things when evaluating programs:
1. Expecting one program to work the same for all children who have different skills and learning styles all the way through K-12.
2. Looking too much at which program works for another family vs. your own.
Both of these we have learned through using a number of programs with our unique children. You will find *fans* in all camps - MUS, TT, Saxon, et. al. But you really have to get back to your own goals and how your individual children respond to different teaching methods and approaches. For example we started all three with MUS because we had heard good things about it. While ds11 thrived with its mastery approach our dds did not. They were not enjoying it and weren't retaining the material. So we switched them to CLE which is spiral and they are doing much better now. This is best learned through discovery with them as you have it sounds like with Saxon.
Also primary math is quite different from secondary math and the programs vary quite a bit as they move through various levels: K-12. Although MUS was fine I think from Primer through Zeta I was not as pleased with it once we hit secondary math in Pre-Algebra. I wanted something more rigorous for ds11 who has strong math skills and I wasn't thrilled with the S&S at this level and beyond. So we switched to TabletClass. Most programs vary between being easier, lighter to more rigorous and challenging. Remember college prep or honors classes? TT & MUS tend to be more on the easier side whereas others tend to be more challenging including Saxon, AoPS, SM, etc... Of course that's not to say that a student who went through TT or MUS wouldn't do well in college. There are fans who will tell how wonderfully it worked for their child. But these are things to at least consider when evaluating strengths/weaknesses of curriculum.
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For Lial I don't think the edition really matters as much. I got this one for Pre-A:
http://www.amazon.co...ils_o04_s00_i00
And this solutions manual:
http://www.amazon.co...ils_o05_s00_i00
For Dolciani Pre-A I got this:
http://www.alibris.c...h?qwork=5296350
For Dolciani Algebra there can be more of an almost religious debate about versions. Some greatly prefer the older 1960s/70s editions. I ended up selecting a 1992 edition which I liked after reviewing. http://www.amazon.co...ils_o01_s00_i00
See this thread if interested in the discussion of versions: http://forums.welltr...ry#entry4518400
The student workbooks have the answers to every odd problem in the back.
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My son has been using Saxon for a few years now, and is near to finishing Algebra 1/2. He does well with it and enjoys it. He does it all by himself, reads the lesson then does the problems. If he gets stuck he watches the Saxon Teacher DVD. I have no hand in his math work.
While he enjoys it and does very well on his lessons and tests, (always between 85% and 100%) he finds it boring.
My question is: should I switch him to another curriculum, supplement Saxon or just stick with Saxon?
Wow, that's a tough question to which there could be a number of answers, no one being the only right one. Since he seems to enjoy Saxon I wouldn't abandon it all together. However I always trying to cultivate a love for math whenever possible, beyond just 'gettin' her done.' This is especially true if a child is moving in a STEM direction. There are a number of ways you could supplement Saxon by including things which he may find more interesting, fun or enjoyable. BethBen described one of them. She is using AoPS's Alcumus which is free. There is Khan Academy which we use and like, also free. Then of course there are a number of great books out there such as AoPS if the discovery approach is something he may be interested in for a future course. Another I would strongly encourage at this time for him is Patty Paper Geometry which is a fun introduction to Geometry before actually starting the course. You could allow him to do this lets say once a week or in addition to his daily Saxon work.
I would definately finish Saxon Algebra 1/2 before making any 'major' changes. After that you could explore with him the possibilty of taking an online class for example such as Derek Owens. This could infuse a little variety into his math education and answer that question: "Mom, dad, does math have to be this boring all the way through?"
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Yes, I have similar concerns with TT. OhElizabeth seems to like it with her daughter and supplements to address potential S&S gaps I think. Maybe she will chime in.
For your dd other options I would also consider would be:
Jacobs
Lial
Derek Owens, he has a normal and honors track
Jann in Texas(uses Lial), many like her classes
TabletClass, If she can do ok with Saxon then she may not find it too difficult.
We prefer having a program with some instruction at this level as my wife doesn't want to lecture Algebra and beyond.
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I didn't think I was a fence-straddler until I started researching my options! DD1 is finishing up Saxon 8/7 (3rd Ed with pre algebra) and I was heading for Algebra 1. I'm not sure why Saxon is considered 'unpopular' as a pp mentioned ;) but I really do want to understand it! I'd much rather shift her to something 'better' now instead of wishing I had 4 years from now.
She seems to benefit from the review and spiral nature of Saxon. What type of student *is* a good fit for Saxon vs AoPS vs some of these older texts vs the online options? It makes my brain hurt lol! I just want her to be well-prepared for college admissions testing etc - she doesn't love math and plans to pursue an arts degree - drama or something right now ;)
My younger 2 are different fish and enjoy math, or at least it seems to come more easily to them. I was originally planning Saxon for all of them unless they protested or didn't seem to thrive. Bad idea??
KellyMama, I think its perfectly fine to go against the grain 'if it is working' for your dd1. Saxon, more than probably any other math program, seems to one folks either really like or really can't stand. We haven't used it, but have friends who do. Its like the good old standard.
There are a lot of threads describing why some families switched from Saxon to 'xyz' program and the many reasons why. While its fine to use Saxon when its working, I think its also important to at least be be open to other options when its not. There are so many great programs which seem to work better for certain types of students such as AoPS for those who love math. For some the repetitive nature of Saxon is just too much. Others prefer something more interactive including online classes. But it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Why not involve your dd in the selection process and at least let her 'try/sample' a few other programs to see how she might like them in comparision to Saxon? Maybe she'll decide that she likes Saxon best. But then your younger ones might be different. Offering a variety of programs to them can really help in tailoring a math education which works best for the individual child.
Common Core math...found MUS is going CC....need to find another program
in K-8 Curriculum Board
Posted
We used MUS all the way through from Primer through Zeta with ds11 which worked pretty well for him. Then we sold it after we found CLE worked much better for our dds. I don't think CLE follows the CC. So I would check that out.
Though looking back at how MUS was all over the place in terms of S&S I think this may actually help others, especially when changing to another curriculum. This was challenging for us due to its unconventional nature. We had to go back first to cover gaps before moving ahead. I'm not quite sure how it will be negative and most are probably looking forward to the changes. Though I do understand and can appreciate that you don't want to debate the issue. I'm sure you could purchase an older set without it if you feel that strongly against the CC, yet still want to use MUS.