dereksurfs
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Posts posted by dereksurfs
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Derek, I hope you take this right, but I'm just laughing here, lol. Come on a board that is largely WOMEN and ask if they'll put aside their HORMONES, ANXIETIES, PMS, ETC. ETC. and just have this nice, rational discussion of the intellectual pros and cons.
What a hoot....
And that my friends is the perfect way to end this thread, with a song. :)
'Why is logic something never even tried?' Hilarious! :)
Yeah, I believe I've had this conversation with my dw at least once or twice over our 22 years of marriage. :laugh: And yes, I've wondered the same things! Hahaa
I must admit to having a little fun with this one. So sorry if I asked for anything too strange or unusual. :p
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Is it possible to have a rational discussion about the pros/cons of TT from an objective point of view? Or is it just too emotionally charged to do so in this thread? Maybe Northwest Mama is correct.
The things I am curious about are really the same things I would ask of any Math curriculum:
1. Scope and Sequence
2. Depth in which it covers each topic
3. Methods in which it teaches
4. Mathematical concept development
5. Alignment with CC and other standards which tests are based upon
6. Retention of problem solving skills by students vs. copy/memorize and forget
7. Recent changes and goals going forward
8. How it compares with other math programs covering similar subjects (e.g. Algebra I/II, Geometry, Pre-Calc)
9. Any known weaknesses
These are the things which an objective review would cover similar to a review of a new car, camera, laptop, phone, etc... You might say but those things are not as personal. Oh, but then you've haven't read the auto or photography forums. Folks get very upset when they feel their *beloved* car or camera or <fill in the blank> is being badly spoken off. So usually it is better to get an objective review from a third party, like a professional reviewer. Though sadly those are much harder to find for homeschool products, especially ones which honestly go into details of pros and cons, contrasting with other products. That said I do realize its hard to just talk about the *thing* itself when one's kids are involved.
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The quadratic formula is now in the TOC for TT Algebra I, but notice that it is a grand total of just 5 pages in the textbook and there is only one lesson after that (using a graphing calculator). Also, each lesson is supposed be just 1 day, so the formula is certainly introduced, but a student isn't going to learn much about it in that short of a time period.
For comparison, Jacobs has three lessons and a review using the quadratic formula. The three lessons (and they do all use the quadratic formula) cover a total of 20 pages.
I'm not against TT at all. I would far rather use TT with my 14yo than MUS, but she won't use a math program that's on the computer.
MUS doesn't even touch the quadratic formula in Algebra I.
Thanks Angie for this more detailed explanation of how quadratics are now covered in TT. I have heard the new version was improved and it sounds like it has from no quadratic coverage in Algebra 1. I also appreciate the comparison with Jacobs which is a pretty standard Algebra 1 text. One of the reasons we left MUS for ds11 after Pre-A was its limited S&S including leaving this topic out among other things. For our dds I'm not sure yet as they are not as mathy as ds. I know they won't go back to MUS since it didn't work for them. I'm glad its working dd14 even if not your first choice for her. Getting the math done is better than not at all! Do you also supplement MUS or are you just planning to address certain areas later in the program?
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Kelly,
I concur with the others for your middle dd. I would keep going if its working, especially since she's almost done with elementary math. You could always transition out once starting Pre-A or Algebra. Those would be more logical transition points unless she runs into problems. No need to go back and learn a whole new method at this juncture. At the end of 6th grade you can always re-evaluate things with her. Maybe at that point she will be ready to try something new.
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A few more good options are for Pre-Algebra and Algebra courses providers are:
We use TabletClass for Pre-Algebra are a very happy with it.
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I think part of the problem is the nature of the question which I'm sure Jen didn't intend to come across this way. But at least for me it tends to lead one to consider TT as either wonderful or terrible. Are you a lover or hater and if so why? :p Maybe a bit more objective question would be what are the Strengths and Weaknesses of TT? And a follow-up would be how do you address some of the known weaknesses if using it? This would provide helpful info for those considering usage. It also would help those currently using it to avoid certain pitfalls like the one described in the blog dealing with 2nd tries and the grading system. I think all programs have their strengths and weakness including AoPS which many agree does not work for all students. I tend to do a lot of research before choosing a curriculum, especially math. But if all I find are fabulous praises no matter how sincere or negative generalities its harder to assess objectively and as a consequence I tend to avoid it.
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Since you have looked at and compared a lot of different math curricula, I'm curious what you think is a solid math program with conceptual teaching for kids that don't get excited about math (except for meltdown type excitement that most of us want to avoid)? What curriculum do you see with clear explanations that would work well for a non-math kid?
I think this is a very good question and part of the dilema for many families with non-mathy kids. It could really be a great thread all on its own. Yet it does relate to the OP question in asking if not TT then what? TT is unique in that it appeals to a lot of kids who normally dislike or even hate math, have meltdowns, etc... It fills a niche with very little competition in this area.
It's kind of funny that when we frequent various homeschool groups we discover very similar 'default' math programs being used. They are basically Saxon, TT and MUS. Each has a tremendous fan base along with those who have tried them and disliked them for whatever reasons. So I have to ask why these three are so darn popular? What do they have in common? Well, let's see, they are basically 'complete' programs which are very open and go from k-12. The are geared toward independent study not requiring as much prep time from the parent. So they are basically an all-in-one box curriculum for math. They've been around a long time, some longer than others (hello Saxon). Of these three which work the best for kids described in the OP? It seems like TT becomes the most frequent answer with MUS coming in second and Saxon a much distant third.
So with all this in mind what else is there for these families and kids? I have to ask that question myself since neither of my girls are math lovers per se. They get it done. But I don't expect them to follow in ds11's footsteps either, our stronger math student. Yet I don't want to prematurely handicap them as well before they are old enough to make a decision about their future. We've already used MUS and both disliked it very much. In answer to the alternatives I would have to say that I don't see too many 'all-in-one' programs even at the secondary level. I do think the options increase however as one considers secondary online options which are somewhat teacher led such as Derek Owens and Jann in Texas. Then if one breaks the secondary courses down and considers them individually other combinations emerge such as Jacobs for Algbera 1, etc... Still its a tougher question to answer.
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Well, since you already have both texts it wouldn't hurt to give them both a try together. If you hit a portion of AoPS which gets too difficult you could easily take a break and work in Dolciani. Then you could return to AoPS after developing the concepts further from other sources. Khan academy is another great resource for supplementation which we've used this year for Pre-A. Also I don't know if you've seen them yet but the AoPS videos are very good which can be used with the text as well.
Let us know how things are going once you get started.
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There are many options for Pre-A with AoPS probably being the most challenging even for the naturally gifted, math loving students. So I don't blame you for looking into secondary supplements. Many including AoPS fans have found the AoPS Pre-A text to be overly complicated for this level of study. See this recent thread discussing the issue: http://forums.welltr...for-aops-users/
There are a couple of things you mentioned which sounded like red flags to me, or at least something to be aware of. AoPS uses a completely different discovery method. And if your dd prefers direct instruction this wouldn't be the most logical 'first' choice for her, especially to introduce new algebraic concepts. You also mentioned she neither likes nor dislikes math. AoPS is geared more toward those who love spending longer periods of time struggling over the most difficult problems like those used in math competitions.
I would consider Dolciani's Pre-A text which is well generally regarded. I'm not sure if you have that one or not. Derek Owens PreA is another great choice. ds11 is good with math, not genius level or anything, but good at it. He is going through TabletClass Pre-A right now and we are *very happy* with the course. Though it is a challenging program which has more algebraic content than most Pre-A programs. We've supplemented TC with AoPS Pre-A at times to gain a different perspective on difficult new concepts such as linear equations. He is reaching the end of the course now and has learned more in this past year than any other year prior. He is grasping many algebraic concepts now and as a consequence his confidence has grown leaps and bounds. Overall this was a perfect fit for him. I am planning on introducing AoPS Algebra to him next year along with TC. I think he's more ready now for that level of challenge whereas before I think AoPS Pre-A would have crushed his spirit as it was just too much too soon. I'm not saying it couldn't work for you as a spine next year. But maybe you could combine it with something else and then bring in AoPS along side or even after another somewhat gentler intro to these new algebraic concepts.
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These two are my top 2 contenders right now, leaning toward Foerster's (with the MWB dvds). Dd is quite visual and I'm not sure how we'd like not having an actual textbook to look back at things, etc. She really liked the TC samples though, so I'm torn. I guess I'm kind of concerned because TC is not as "tried and true" as Foerster's.
Did you compare the two extensively (I think you said you have Foerster's there? and I know you're using TC), and if so, what were your findings?
We greatly appreciate your willingness to help out with these questions! :)
I will say that you've narrowed your choices down to what I had initially as well. I think they are both great programs and that you can't go wrong with either.
I can't say I've compared both 'extensively', though I have looked both over. I can only base my comparison upon what we've done in TC Pre-Algebra. I have also looked over the Foerster text along with Dolciani and AoPS. Though some have done Algebra 1 without lectures I wouldn't go that route with an Algebra 1 text like Foerster or Dolciani unless I planned to give daily lessons. Those books, while good, were never designed to be used as independent Algebra 1 courses. Rather they were written as student workbooks to be accompanied by daily math lessons. AoPS on the other hand is written toward the student and lends itself toward independent study similar to Saxon.
I like both video lecture formats. They both seem to explain things thoroughly and clearly. While both offer lessons on the algebraic topics TC also provides full step-by- step explanations of the problem sets. That is very helpful at times when the student has trouble understanding certain problems. So I would have give TC a higher rating in that it covers more as an integrated program. Though a parent could probably explain this to the student themselves with the Foerster solutions manual. I think part of it will also depend on how the child responds to both styles of instruction. For some they may find one presenter to be more dry/boring while the other is more engaging. Remember that they will be listening to these lessons for many hours throughout the school year. So that can help in keeping the student more engaged. I think ds11 likes TC lessons a bit more.
Overall I think Foerster would be a bit more difficult initially as they jump right into things like Quadratic Equations in chapter 6. Other programs including AoPS build upon more fundamental algebraic concepts first, then introduce Quadratics in the later parts of the course. I still thinks its doable, just a bit more challenging as the student is still developing an understanding of these algebraic concepts.
Another obvious difference is that one program is more computer based. TC's program including the math problem sets are viewed on the web. This does not mean however that the child answers the problems on screen like other web based programs. The problems are still printed out and done on paper, step-by- step, just like a traditional math course which I like.
I think either choice could be supplemented with the other since TC now offers Algebra lessons free online and the Foerster book is very affordable used.
Lastly I would let your dd listen to both, look over the Foerster text and then demo TC. Obtaining her input will not only help in making your final decision but also give her a greater sense of ownership in her first Algebra course.
I hope that helps some,
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I have the utmost respect for Jann, of course, but that particular post is no longer relevant because TT has modified the high school programs since 2010. Algebra I, particularly, is far more rigorous and comparable to other well-known programs now. In its original form, all the usual material was covered by the end of Geometry and Alg. 2, but TT listened to customer complaints that the students might not be ready for standardized tests by the end of Algebra 1 so some topics needed to be moved back down. At least, that's how I remember the story. Whether I'm fuzzy on the details or not, I do know that TT Alg. I has been updated since Jann's post in 2010.
This is interesting getting a bit more into the specifics of the courses as they are revised. I wonder if they revised the Pre-Calc as well?
Also with Common Core changes effecting the SAT among other things I wonder if TT will try to align with it? I know for example SM, MM and MUS are making some changes to try to better align to the CC standards.
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Here's one more interesting perspective from Jann in Texas who also teaches math to quite a few WTMF kids. She goes into a bit more depth in reviewing each TT course at the higher levels:
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How much review of previously learned concepts are integrated into the lessons?
Aimee, I was asked a similar question regarding review of previous concepts in another thread. I'll repeat my response below.
TC's lessons build upon each other as most algebraic concepts do. So the way I view it is that review is built-in every time one gets to the next level. For example ds11 is currently doing polynomials in Pre-A. But way back in the beginning he was learning about single and multi-step equations. So as he progresses he continues to apply the same concepts learned earlier. Thus through this application he reviews what he learned earlier on. Also at the end of every chapter there are review notes and extra practice problems to go over the concepts before taking the chapter tests. I find the chapter tests to be great tools for evaluating retention. If more were missed in a particular area we go back and review over those concepts. Furthermore, TC Pre-A is strongly rooted in Algebra 1. So as ds11 finishes up Pre-A, it is really nice to see the mapping it has to Algebra 1. In Algebra 1 he will be covering many of the same concepts covered but in greater depth. Consequently there will be a lot of review followed by expansion upon it.
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I'm in and it looks really nice. For those having trouble make sure you finalize registration through getting an email confirmation which you can then click on. OhElizabeth sends those out I'm pretty sure. I didn't notice it at first as its from no-reply@hyperboards.com.
Unfortunately it looks like I'll need to wait until ds11 turns13 because of certain age restrictions which apply to forum registration. Oh well, I guess a couple of years aren't so bad. I read up on this a bit more and its based upon the COPPA - Children's Online Privacy Protection Act. If websites allow kids under 13 to register they typically require parental consent and verification of some type. I think AoPS does something similar for Alcumus for example.
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I think Jacobs is a well known book with proofs. You can use the Dr. Callahan videos designed for it also: http://www.askdrcall...eometry-bundle/
Derek Owens has a good Geometry class online: http://www.derekowens.com/course_info_geometry.php
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Well, I went to a state school, majored in social work, and work in a beer store. I guess I'm not their target audience. :tongue_smilie:
Tara
LOL :thumbup: :D :lol:
Derek Owens is a good middle of the road Pre-Algebra course. The videos are free. I don't recommend skipping Pre-A entirely. Though you could always accelerate a Pre-A course which you found redundant in parts. Chances are once started the new algebraic concepts will take time to absorb while the review may *possibly* be skipped or tested out of.
TabletClass is another solid Pre-A course which we are doing now. It has more actual algebraic content than most. I guarantee you will not find it overly redundant or too easy. They also have free videos here: http://homeschoolmathonline.com/
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Please not that I posted this in the general education area as well since I wanted general feedback along with the admins here. Here is that thread:
http://forums.welltr...-your-thoughts/
The general concensus so far is that while most parents like the idea no one wanted their kids on 'this' same site. I guess many would feel less likely to share what's on their minds candidly if their kiddos were hanging around and possibly listening in.
Another thing I realized when brainstorming this with OhElizabeth is that most forums have minimum age requirements such as 13 with a parents approval. Our oldest is 11 and would like participate. But that would not work with the rules and regs on hyperboard for example. So we'll have to wait until he is 13 to use that board. I know there are sites like AoPS where a parent can sign up a student. I think something that would be required for the younger, non-teen kids. For now its looks like 13+ is an age limitation.
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I also asked and she said MD above.It might help if we knew what state you are in.
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So, I should go to an umbrella (paid)that aligns with a different long term goal? You have to understand- this was coming from my state reviewer, which means that countless other family's that have reviews from their state or county will probably face these same issues. Once someone sets a standard it affects most of us and now that it is federally adopted - we have to decidedly avoid their pamphlets about cc- who go to county reviewers (free) to not feel behind and justify to them, that we don't care about their standard, or else we should integrate their standard, because that is what they will expect in their review of our children. I find this affects us homeschoolers. I now have my answer to how this affects me and maybe be better equipped to make a standards decision for my child, but still not happy that I had to undergo that review, made to feel stupid that writing prompts weren't introduced to my children, now thinking that maybe that system still stinks, and just want something that works for my kid. Pass me the tinfoil 1630's dunce cap.
These are good and valid questions. Since many of us do not have 'State Reviewers' we haven't had to ask ourselves similar questions. It will be good to hear other responses as well, but I'll give my perspective on it. I would listen to the reviewer, look over the brochures/pamphlets, politely thank him/her for their time, then consider if any recommendations make sense with my goals even in a limited way. For example could I do some basic prompts every now and then? Would that add anything to what we are doing now? Would it help/hurt to it? Maybe, maybe not. I think someone earlier shared some basic prompts which may be age appropriate for a young child for example. Bottom line is that its still your *choice* and therefore every home will respond to these recommendations differently. Maybe an umbrella group will make you feel more comfortable and therefore worth the extra cost. Sometimes those come with other benefits as well. I think it would give you a good 'local' soundboard to discuss your concerns with regards to CC alignment in both the short and longer term. I think they would probably tell you that this is more than a black and white, all or nothing proposition. But it still may be worth it to have that umbrella and no Reviewers to deal with. ;)
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Am I reading the site right? A free homeschool math course? Lol.
Aimee,
To get the *full course* you need to enroll in TabletClass. However these are videos from the actual paid class which we use. So they are a really good resource. Here is a quote from the owner/instructor, John, regarding the free videos and quizzes:
"The free course provides all the TabletClass course lesson videos- not the example sets videos. However the full courses are organized on the new blog and the videos can provide a massive amount of free education. The blog also has pop quizzes and excellent educational articles for math. Of course if people want the full version of my courses they need a TabletClass membership." -- John Zimmerman.
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This is great Stephanie, glad to hear he is doing so well in the Derek Owens Pre-Algebra. :thumbup:
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Yes, I agree with all the above regarding CC in a homeschool environment. I am not going to try to mimic PS or line up item for item with CC in the same way we don't do that now with our current State standard. That is one of the benefits of homeschooling. You don't have to follow the PS or any script like the teachers do who many times end up 'teaching to the test' instead of the subject at hand. Its the long term that is the objective as Jackie mentioned. There are many paths to reach similar objectives in a variety of subjects whether it be in writing, math, science, etc... Accepting the fact the your state adopts CC or any other state standard and trying to follow it line by line starting in Kindergarten while homeschooling are two entirely different propositions. While its ok to look it over there is no reason to change course as long as your long term objectives are aimed at meeting or exceeding these minimum standards. So in that sense you may not be behind at all since you don't have marry CC. Maybe it can help to revise longer term goals or maybe no revision is needed. It may help some homeschool parents who aim too low academically without realizing it.
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This is great OhElizabeth! Thanks so much.
So I went through the registration process. But I did not see a place to send you an email. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?
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This almost seems like a futile attempt or moot point to stop CC since almost all states have already adpoted it. Since it is a 'minimum' standard hopefully most schools and homeschoolers will aim 'above' this minimum in preparing children for their future. Below is a map showing current state adoption. Green have adopted CC while blue have adopted LA only:
what's wrong with teaching textbooks?
in Logic Stage & Middle Grade Challenges
Posted
:laugh: :D Thanks, and btw I'm pretty sure you *are not* a man. But I'm going on intuition here. lol :p