dereksurfs
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Posts posted by dereksurfs
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Is the problem more with going 'back' to learn the SM way or getting them up to grade level in all areas? It sounds like both are your goals right now which aren't necessarily bad per se. But because you were taught a different way at this point maybe something else like MM would be easier to get them to grade level, especially since they only have one more year of elementary left. I think MM is standards based as well if that is a concern. However I see you have others younger dc. So maybe you are thinking you want to go SM with the rest of them. And in that case you are learning it at the same time they are.
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Hm, its hard to tell where they are really at with all these different sources (TT, SM, Saxon, etc...). I don't really understand how Saxon Algebra looks too easy on the one hand while they are doing SM 3rd grade on the other?
If your goal is to work toward the state standard then SM is a good option. But if the methods are too slow, put them too far behind or not a good fit for them, etc.. then find something they can stick with throughout the remainder of elementary Math. Maybe have them take some placement tests and try some samples of other programs such as MM, CLE, R&S, etc... Or just stick with SM for better or worse until they get through 6th grade. To catch up you may need them to devote more time toward math 'for a season.' Consider math during Summer.
Bottom line, yes, jumping around too much can become very disjointed. However you need a good spine to work from and continue with even if you supplement with other resources to meet the state standard scope. The only problem with this could be too much focus on 'The Test' vs. their actual learning and understanding of math itself.
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Thank you as well. I've looked briefly at the TabletClass and it looked interesting. It reminds my daughter a little of Khan Academy. How are you and your dc liking it? Any pros and cons you are willing to share? Are you planning on using the Alg.1 when you get through pre-alg.?
Thanks for all the other suggestions!
Sure, for us we really like TC. So there are mostly pros.
Pros:
* Clear, thorough instruction which gets to the point without rambling too much.
* Standards based curriculum with a S&S that can be easily mapped to other well regarded texts/programs. I created a mapping you can see here: Algebra 1 S&S matrix
* Easy to supplement because of above
* Leans towards challenging with a college prep feel
* Very user friendly enabling students to work mostly independent. ds11 is ~ 95% independent.
* Excellent customer service. The owner will get right back to you with a well thought out answer if you email him.
* All problems worked out with full explanations via video examples
* Reasonably priced for all that is offered
Cons:
* Leans toward challenging. While we like this there are times when we will supplement just to look at things from another perspective and let concepts really set it.
* For Pre-A which ds11 is in currently TC takes a 'better early than late' approach. So it has more algebraic content than most Pre-As do.
We are planning to use TabletClass for Algebra 1 based on our experiences with it this year. I plan on integrating in other Algebra 1 material from AoPS, Khan and other sources as we did this year as well. I am also strongly considering extending Algbera 1 over more than one school year with these other resources. The reason for this is that I think Algebra 1 is so vital in building a strong foundation for higher level math and science to follow.
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I agree with Kiana, There are so many options. However I know its a big decision, one which I highly recommend including your DD in at this point. Make it fun demo'ing a few select options which you narrow it down to. Then who knows, she may decide she likes Saxon best. Or she may find its time for a break and having something new might rejuvinate her at this important stage. I will recommend a few good ones. But it really depends mostly on her and also you, how she learns best and how much you want to outsource vs. lecture, etc...
Foerster and Math w/o Borders video lessons
Derek Owens
TabletClass which we are using now for Pre-A
Jacobs with Dr. Callahan video lessons
AoPS
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You could skip 800 as others have. However I don't think CLE 700 by itself is a complete Pre-Algebra course when you consider its S&S, nor was it intended as such. For example if Linear Equations and the Pythagorean Theorem are skipped entirely which are normally apart of Pre-A courses, will the child still do fine in Algebra 1?
Before skipping I would encourage you to consider the S&S of CLE 800 first. Examine 'specifically' what is covered in those light units. Then you will be able to best decide which ones you think are ok to skip, or not: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf
I am still undecided whether we will continue past 600 with our dds. They really like CLE. Our ds11 is doing an excellent Pre-A program with TabletClass which is very thorough. Although our dds are not as strong in math as him I would not want them to be unprepared for the challenges of Algebra either. So if we stay with CLE for Pre-A we will most likely do selected light units from both 700 & 800.
With regards to the new CLE 'Sunrise' Algebra I have generally heard good things about it. Though it is still known as a 'Preliminary' edition. Their older editions are Alpha Omega and not very well regarded. Although there are discussions about creating new material beyond Algebra there is no estimation as to when yet. I would guess years out still.
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NO!!! You don't have to purchase it. There is a downloadable placement test.
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The FREE answers are here -- or check for the link here (at the bottom under "Samples & Files").
Good to know RootAnn. That's funny that they charge $2 in one place and offer a free copy there.
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I agree it totally shouldn't be necessary to have pretty books (lol) and that was my DHs point with switching tracks now. However, we both reached the same conclusion you did about it possibly being necessary to help her break out of this funky stage! ;) She says exactly what you said about it being so monotonous - even the teacher lessons put her to sleep!
I have looked at Khan but haven't actually used it with any dc yet. I've also put a copy of Lial's in my Amazon cart! I've also researched CLE and Horizons because I really do think she needs a spiralish program.
After much deliberation, and combing through samples, I'm actually leaning towards having her finish 8/7 and then possibly using CLE 800 with her next year. I see you've also used CLE - do you feel it can be a 'complete' math program for a non-math interested student? Or is there a need to supplement drills etc in another program? My main concern is that it will be 'enough' for her to learn the basics and do well on future standardized tests. Also, do I really have to purchase the CLE placement test? I couldn't find a downloadable answer key.
Yes, I think CLE is a complete program and a great choice. It is designed to be independant like Saxon. Saxon 8/7 which she is already doing plus CLE 800 should more than prepare her for Algebra 1. CLE's gentle spiral works great for our girls who are average math students I would say. They both hated math initially when we started with MUS. But now with CLE at least they get it done without much complaining. In addition they have a lot more success on the tests which has built their confidence back up. The only supplement we have used with them is Hands on Equations. However with ds11 in Pre-A we use Khan and AoPS to supplement some of trickier algebraic concepts such as linear equations, polynomials, etc... Here is one we used for example:
https://www.khanacad...ear_equations_4
CLE's placement test is very affordable and it can help gage where she is at as well as discover any areas which may need strengthening:
http://www.clp.org/p...ostic_test_1659
The nice thing with CLE is that it is broken up into 'light units' which can be purchased separately. So you can tailor the units she needs to most work on and skip/skim the ones she is already strong in.
May I also suggest allowing her to try some of the samples of maybe a couple programs that you narrow it down to, lets say CLE and Horizons? That will help her to feel more engaged with the process and gain a sense of ownership. It sounds like she has grown to really dislike Saxon for various reasons and may feel it is thrust upon her whether she likes it or not. So this might help to vitalize enjoyment of math or at least minimize her loathing it so.
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Which one would you say is better for a child who isn't exactly a memory wizard?
We've been using MM 1 after finishing Singapore EM K a few months ago. We're taking MM slow, but nothing seems to be sticking. Would a spiral program be better for her?
I definately noticed a big difference between them which I think totally depends upon the child's natural abilities and learning bent.
We started all three dc with a mastery program (MUS). It worked great for ds11 who is naturally gifted at math. He sailed right through it, retaining all material. By contrast both dds who are more average math students had significant issues with it. They disliked the monotonous approach focusing on 'one' concept for so long. Then they were not retaining things after moving to the next section, similar to your dd. It was then that we found CLE after researching various spiral programs. Things went so much better once we switched and it just seemed like a more tailor made fit. Mastery was like trying to put a square peg into a round hole with them. Sure, we could have forced them through it. But why when they could learn better, more naturally via another method?
I highly recommend trying this for yourself as it can really vary a lot child to child, family to family. We involved them even at an early age in the demo'ing and selection process which helped them to 'own' their math program. That is the beauty of homeschooling. You can tailor the program to the child vs. a one size fits all which doesn't.
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I'll preface this with I think it totally depends upon the child as they all learn differently. Some do better with spiral while others do better with mastery. We've used both for different dc.
Generally speaking CLE along with SM for concept development and challenging word problems.
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Well, I guess we'll find out soon enough first hand since a very kind forum member just offered to mail me the full PPG set which they no longer use. Geesh, this forum really is a great place! :thumbup: :D
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I answered on the logic board. Basically dd hated Patty Paper Geometry :lol:
Well, it sounds like its not for every kid like many things. However for our ds11 who loves folding paper I think he will really relate to it. Its not just about doing the math, but rather its application to many forms which interest him.
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I think the Standards Edition probably already meets or exceeds CCS, so they don't have to make changes. Their middle grades program is being changed to meet CCS.
The Standards Edition was developed to meet California standards, which required adding a few topics that weren't in the US Edition.
Isn't the national CCS very similar to existing California standards for mathematics? So for example that if SM or MUS meet California standards they also meets the CCS?
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Thanks Quark. It looks like you used a variety of resources for a Pre-Geometry of sorts including PPG.
I looked into Discovering Geometry briefly and while it looks fun I'm not sure it would be enough as a complete course. It seems to have a number of folks that both love it and dislike it quite a bit. While Sue in St. Pete seemed happy with it for example MathWonk didn't think as highly of it. This may be in part due to its lighter approach toward proofs among other things. I found this one math instructors poor review of it to give me pause for thought as well:
http://www.amazon.co...ords=1559534591
For the full course I'm leaning more towards Jacobs, AoPS or other options. Right now I'm only looking at Pre-Geometry stuff like PPG for the paper folding fun aspects while learning some fundamentals.
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I thought it was said Signapore math is not CC.
??
Holly
Singapore Math (SM) is a little confusing with so many different versions and now with the CC. Hopefully someone else who is using it will chime is like CrimsonWife. I found this in their FAQ which attempts to explain some of the variations between editions:
Is the Standards Edition of Primary Math "dumbed down" compared to the US or third Edition?
No, it is not. It meets the math requirements per grade level for California, and so some topics were added and rearranged, but it maintains the integrity of the Primary Mathematics curriculum. Most of the content is the same as in the US Edition, and thus the third edition of Primary Mathematics, and some content was added in from the second edition of Primary Mathematics. In fact, it is probably in places a bit more challenging than the US edition because of the addition of material from the second edition of Primary Mathematics. This is one series that has not followed the trend of decreasing challenge with each new edition! Some topics were added, which could lead to concern that it is becoming "mile wide and inch deep" but the additions are fairly minimal. Some of the additions were simply made in order to be more explicit on material that was already in the curriculum, or to cover some of the same material at more grade levels. For example, some content that was repeated between grade levels was removed in going from the second edition to the third edition to create a "reduced content" edition. It is now back in the Standards edition, such as a review of equivalent fractions now in 4A, or the connection between division and fractions now in both 4A and 5A.
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I know I can continue to use MUS. I am just not liking they are caving in to CC. It seems there is misinformation regards to MUS. One hand they said they are not changing anything what they have already but adding to it to make it CC compliant. Well I do not see how they can be CC compliant without changing the S&S model of their program. kwim?
I have no idea what to start with if I switch to Signapore US ed.
Holly
Yes, I do have to question how they will manage this with such a different approach toward S&S. If what they are saying is true then it would be added as extracurricular like the 'honors questions' in the MUS Pre-Algebra text which we have. So I guess a student could 'choose' to learn about things like negative numbers before Pre-A if they do the extra work. Still, that sounds very disjointed to me. It allows them to say MUS complies with CC, but in a slap it on the end sort of way rather than a more integrated, systematic approach.
I thought Singapore US ed was CC now also based upon many public and private schools using it. If so older used copies can still be purchased. Though as Crimson Wife said the newer version is no less than the older one without CC. SM was probably closer to the CC to begin with which made it easier to comply with than MUS.
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Hello,
I was wondering if anyone has used Patty Paper Geometry? I am considering it for a Pre-Geometry in planning ahead.
ds11 has strong math skills, loves origami and is always asking about geometry. He is finishing up TabletClass Pre-A which is pretty demanding. I plan to have him start algebra soon and then introduce a pre-Geometry at some point. I also plan on having him do an extended Algebra 1 program with TabletClass and AoPS or another supplemental like Foerster.
I am just wondering if anyone has used PPG *before* finishing Algebra 1 or as a Pre-Geometry? From what I've read it doesn't seem like a complete geometry course. Is its S&S not really considered complete?
Thanks,
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I have no clue, as I suspect it wouldn't work for my kids due to fine motor issues. I just wanted to pipe in about the three geometry chapters in AoPS Prealgebra (ch 10, 11, 12), since I think you might already have that book. They are excellent for some pre-Geometry and I think they may be easier than other chapters (though I sometimes wonder whether that depends on the strengths of the individual student).
Wapiti, that's interesting to know about AoPS Pre-A. Unfortunately I don't have that book. We do however own the intro to Algebra AoPS text.
I am more interesting in PPG because ds11 loves origami and making things with his hands. As far as fine motor issues that would not be a problem at all. He literally spends hours folding advanced origami projects. We actually had to dicipline him today for staying up too late last night working on his latest origami project! lol :tongue_smilie:
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Hello,
I was wondering if anyone has used Patty Paper Geometry with a younger child? I am considering it for a Pre-Geometry.
ds11 has strong math skills, loves origami and is always asking about geometry. He is finishing up TabletClass Pre-A which is pretty demanding. I plan to have him start algebra soon and then introduce a pre-Geometry at some point. I also plan on having him do an extended Algebra 1 program with TabletClass and AoPS or another supplemental like Foerster.
I am just wondering if anyone has used PPG *before* finishing Algebra 1 or as a Pre-Geometry? From what I've read it doesn't seem like a complete geometry course. Is its S&S not really considered complete?
Thanks,
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KellyMama,
Sorry to hear this. It sounds like she did well through the first half. Unfortunately this is a tough period for boys and girls with puberty, brain fog, etc... as Oh Elizabeth described. Maybe that's why some Middle Schools delay starting Algebra 1. Its really hard to say if changing at this point will help. On the other hand a Lials text is very affordable used and at the very least you could use it as supplemental. Just changing gears a bit with her may help to break her out of this mental funk. Although pretty pictures shouldn't be needed, sometimes a change of pace or different perspective can help. I've also heard good things about the Horizons text Trish mentioned. Have you tried supplementing with Khan yet? That has helped ds11 through Pre-A this year. One of the downsides I've heard some say with Saxon is that it can be very monotonous. So maybe spicing things up a little bit wouldn't be such a bad thing.
I'm not sure if completely switching would help. But if you started supplementing and all of a sudden the lights turn on again, I'd be inclined to use that more. Whatever works 'for her' at this point is best.
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Wow! This thread took a life of its own. LOL!! ookkk....will do some research on own.
Carry on guys! I am out of this conversation. :D
Holly :001_smile:
Sorry Holly,
Hopefully your question was answered in midst of the public school discussions. It did sort of take on a life of its own. :p Maybe another thread should be started on that. Since we homeschool I don't find it particularly relevent to what we do. I am more interested in hearing the positive/negative impacts on the curriculum itself, if any. Though I must admit it is interesting to hear all the potential fallout from it for better or worse in the various school districts.
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I was refering to chicagoshannon's post below.
This reminds me that some districts will look for any and every excuse to do something dumb, then grab it and do it. If they don't blame the CC, they will use NCLB or any other mandate to downgrade the education system their area. It really is sad. But obvisously not every disctrict makes such poor decisions. Its another reason to homeschool in those areas and for them to lose more of their funding. Maybe if enough parents demand more or walk they will listen?
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For the majority of us who homeschool I don't see this as any sort of problem, really. If there is then please enlighten me? We can simply accelerate once a set of skills are covered and move on... to Algebra, Geometry or whatever we feel our child is ready for.
Grade 'minimums' on the other hand could help some programs depending on what they 'don't' currently cover such as MUS, TT, etc... I wish MUS would have covered certain topics earlier when instead they put them off until much later. ds11 is amazed at times when he sees what concepts our dds are being introduced to much earlier in CLE such as negative numbers among many other things. That's why within the context of this original question I don't really see the downside when referring 'specifically to MUS.' I'm more intrigued with how MUS will actually pull this off.
On the other hand if one wants to philosophize on the overall merits of CC within a greatly flawed public school system, that really is an entirely different question. It also introduces a whole set of different outcomes which are highly dependent upon regional school administration policy making. Will a 7th or 8th grader be allowed to move ahead into Algebra for example? Isn't that going so far afield its basically irrelevant to the OP? Or am I am missing the connection to MUS and the scope of their intended curriculum changes? From what I've read so far any planned change will be 'additive' to what is already there. So far all I'm hearing is a general dislike or mistrust of minimum CC standards which hasn't seemed to effect other programs negatively such as SM. Is this somehow guilt by association?
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I highly recommend CLE as well based on what you've described. We were in a very similar situation. Initially we started all dc with MUS. But its mastery approach only worked for ds11. Our dds were not retaining things and it was drudgery getting through the lessons. After researching other more spiral programs we tried CLE and they like it much more. We also tried MM, purchasing all the books. But it just wasn't a good fit.
The thing with CLE is that it is spiral. So upon first glance you may think there are not enough practice problems. But initially they typically introduce a subject, then follow-up in later light units with more problems. That really helps those who need a more spiral approach as they have multiple opportunities to work on certain topics throughout the year. And as others have said if you still want more problems it would be very easy to supplement with MM or other materials. We haven't felt the need to do this yet. But we have MM if we needed it.
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I'm hijacking here...apologies....but I have a similar question as the one above in bold. My dd4th will be finishing up Saxon 5/4 and we want to continue math through the summer. Could we do the last part of CLE 4 to review before moving on to 5th grade math? I haven't compared the Scope & Sequence yet of Saxon & CLE. Can anyone answer this question?
Thanks!
Murrayshire, sure you could do this. But before you do take look at S&S (Page 38) to see what you will actually be covering: http://www.clp.org/d...e_2012-2013.pdf
As I mentioned above the assumption that the last few light units go over the earlier ones isn't entirely true. They also 'introduce' new concepts which will be covered in the next year, in this case 5th grade. If you are ok with that then it should be fine. But the best review of 4th grade is actually the first light unit of the next year which in your case would be CLE 501. You could do that one first to look for areas which need stengthening or last as a wrap up, especially of the newer concepts which CLE may have introduced.
Yet another pre-algebra question... advice please
in Logic Stage & Middle Grade Challenges
Posted
my ds11 sounds similar to yours. We are using TabletClass which I highly recommend. It is rigorous with a good amount of early Algebra vs. simply a lot of review which we both like. He just finished a section on quadratic equations. We also supplement with AoPS and Khan and they work great together. Overall I think he will be well prepared for Algebra 1 soon.
TC has videos similar to Khan along with the everything else needed included fully explained solutions to the problems via video lessons. You can take a look here: http://www.tabletcla...prealgebra.aspx
There is a demo area also here:
http://www.tabletcla...efaultdemo.aspx