This is maybe an odd question, but it has come up recently. Would you say that your feelings about your relationship with a person are separate from your feelings about that person themselves? For me specifically, this has come up in the context of my feelings about DH versus my feelings about our relationship. I realized that my feelings about the relationship itself had been pretty negative (and pretty problem-solving oriented -- I wanted it to be better!) at the same time as my feelings about DH himself had been pretty positive. Does anyone else experience things in this way?

They feel fundamentally different to me, too. I’d assume that there have always been men primarily sexually attracted to men. But I’m with @EKS — a large proportion of people who conceive of themselves as transgender nowadays seem to be taking part in a currently socially acceptable method of “finding themselves.” In earlier times, they’d have done something else — asserted their identity in some other way. This doesn’t mean it feels any less real to THEM. We’re all products of our cultural moment. But that’s my read on the situation.

I’d say that anyone with gender dysphoric kids will have relevant views to share. ETA: anyway, this isn’t worth litigating further, in my opinion.

As someone who has come in for a fair amount of disapprobation, I’ll say it would be unfair to say anyone ran me off if I left.

I’m sorry, Terabith :-/. It’s really depressing when issues that affect you personally become polarized.

You know, I thought the idea that words can hurt is one (rightfully) heavily promoted by the trans community… Words are actions. And from my perspective, you’re being very unkind.

I mean, people are reacting to the cultural moment with legislation. I think the horse is out of the barn whatever side of the issue you’re on, that’s all.

The idea that legislation has anything to do with this cultural moment seems to me misguided. ETA: to expand on this a bit, I don’t think legislation created the movement and I don’t think legislation could fix much of the harm (in either direction) that is being done.

Can’t argue with you there.

It happens with every issue, though. People circle their wagons and defend increasingly outlandish points of view that are “on the right side.”

Ah. Thanks.

What’s a hormone wash?

It does seem likely that socially transitioning makes medical intervention more likely, in which case I definitely prefer the alternative. With the kiddo I've been talking about, I can see that they may have very well been more comfortable with a male identity as they got older. Their interests don't align well with their female identity, and that complicates matters. (My older girl's interests also don't align well with what's traditionally expected of girls, which is why they hit it off initially, but the feeling around it is different.)

Ah 😕. That’s sad for this kiddo, then. I’m sure her mom meant well, too.

And what happens when the child transitions socially?

I know you're kidding, but personally, I think it's be incredibly disorienting. I think the idea that the more choice we have, the better is a fallacy.

As far as I know, though, you refer to the people in your life in the way they'd like to be referred to.

Oh, and I've had at least one significant interaction with this community IRL. I think it's a very useful one to think about. One of my older girl's good homeschooling friends from first grade is trans. She transitioned as a toddler and by the time I met her, had been going by her female name for a while. This example illustrates a lot of the complications. On the one hand, no one pushed this kiddo to become trans. Her mom describes her asking for a dress and then never taking it off, so eventually they bought lots of dresses. And she chose how she wanted to be referred to. She was little enough that it was definitely not peer pressure. On the other hand . . . as this kiddo's grown up, it has become very clear that she's on the spectrum. And her parents divorced a few years ago, which is when I learned that the dad was abusive to the mom and to the kids. So . . . this is all very complicated. I personally wouldn't be surprised if the abusive dad is partially what made her reject the male identity. I don't have any lessons here. I want this kiddo to be as happy as possible in her life. I don't know if that means transitioning surgically or coming back to a male identity (she's now very much a tomboy.) But it's an interesting story. I also know some stories of people transitioning as teens or adults, which have a very different flavor from my perspective.

I've done it before and am doing it right now. It works better for me if I don't feed the kids breakfast -- it's hard not to eat when feeding other people. It doesn't result in weight loss for me unless I otherwise restrict calories. But I do like the break from eating -- it kind of resets my system to remember that being full is not the normal state.

Ah, my bad. I do think all bets are off when someone's taken hormones.

I have lots of thoughts on this one. It's kind of a mishmash, so bear with me. First of all, I think it's important to extend people respect. I will refer to people the way they want to be referred to. Whatever I think about this cultural moment, I will not change it by making people feel angry and aggrieved. People's emotions and needs are genuine even when they are affected by the prevailing cultural narratives. (In fact, all of our needs and thoughts are predicated on our social context, so dismissing any specific request or need is hypocritical.) I have a lot of sympathy with @maize's point that you can't control other people. I think that's a concept that generalizes very well -- as far as possible, you should figure out how to live your life in a way that accepts that you can't change people. What that means is that people should learn to have boundaries that allow them to function healthily regardless of what people around them. The narratives I've heard from the trans communities are the opposite of this. That being said, in examples like with @Amira's daughter, I don't think there's any reason to extend grace to someone who obviously just no longer accepts you. In that situation, you can see that your grandfather is going to consistently use a gender you'd prefer not he use, and you can decide what level of interaction with this person will allow you to be comfortable. I would personally guess that as someone gets more comfortable in their new identity, interaction gets more comfortable. In fact, I've seen this in a variety of contexts -- when someone takes on a new way of being, it takes a while to be able to coexist with people who didn't join you on your journey. There's a reason that they talk about the convert's zeal. (I saw this firsthand in my dad, who became an Orthodox Jew when he was around 30.) Another thing that's obvious is that this cultural shift is affecting people's self-perceptions. Like people said above, one's identity is an issue of community and presentation, not just of internal awareness. I've seen many reports of trans and non-binary little kids in the last 5 years. I don't in any way believe that all those kids were simply hiding their "true feelings" before. How one feels is a matter of cultural context. People are trying on these identities the same way people try on all sorts of culturally acceptable identity. But this one troubles me more than most, because it comes with potential surgical intervention and more of a disruption in self-concept. However, I'd also like to push back on the idea that there's no such thing as "feeling male" or "feeling female." I think they tested that theory when they tried to raise boys whose penises had been damaged accidents as female. As it turns out, most of those boys were unhappy and didn't fit in with girls. I don't think it's correct to say that gender is a purely social construct. (That being said, it's not at all obvious to me that most trans kids feel like the opposite gender in the way that those boys did. Not on average.) I'm really disturbed by the idea that we do NOT know whether transitioning helps with mental health risks (and that at least some long-term studies suggest otherwise.) I'm suspicious of the quality of most medical studies, but it's just unconscionable that we're pursuable treatment blind like that. Hm, that's all I remember that I wanted to reply to! Thanks for reading to the end of my rambling :D.

I'd be surprised if that's actually true for most people on here. Personally, I can almost always tell. I notice when I can't.

Gosh. That's scary. Can you cite the study?

Sounds great to me.

I don't know what your daughter is like. Kids vary so much. And I don't have kids with OCD, or even medicated kids, so maybe my perspective is of limited value. But for what it's worth . . . I know that for my kids, saying that something is non-negotiable will mean that they won't tell me all of what they think or feel about something (what's the point? They have to do it anyway) which in turn will mean that they will never be fully on board. My kids have never been fully convinced that something was good for them unless they got a chance to participate in the decision. This has applied to a wide set of circumstances. I've spent lots of time teaching kids, so I know that not all kids are like this -- we're in the minority. Some kids can get on board by just being told why they should be on board. And I can also see the dilemma here -- she really does NEED to be taking her medication, and she's not equipped to make medical decisions for herself. So I don't have any answers here. I just know that I'd worry about the possibility of the medication becoming a power struggle and not something that you both agree is what she needs to function day to day.