I explained more fully on the post I just made, but basically...liability on our part and independence/responsibility on his that seems appropriate to his give situation.

Our primary reasons are his maturity/responsibility and our liability. Yes, there might be other ways that this child could learn responsibility. He talks big about independence and wanting to be on his own. What this really means is that as long as he's at our house or "on our dime", he knows that we have input into the lifestyle he leads, and that bothers him. He keeps saying that pretty much, a vehicle is all that stands between him and his independence/freedom. He says that he's not currently drinking, but we know that in many situations, he has engaged in underage drinking. He says he never drives under the influence, but I'm not sure I trust him on this. I don't trust his judgement in most areas. He's made it clear that he doesn't share our moral beliefs, and he seems intent on running headlong into destructive behavior. Having an underage adult on our policy who we know participates in underage drinking doesn't seem wise to me. Because he seems to think that he could achieve independence with a vehicle, we want that event to come sooner rather than later. He has no idea what that independence will look like. The only expenses he currently has include cell phone, a portion of insurance, and 2 tanks of gas/month (less than he actually uses.) He spends every last dime he earns on entertainment and has no saving at all. It's all been spent. We're about to give him a (very reasonable) deadline by which he has to purchase a beater vehicle. At that time, he will be removed from our insurance, regardless of whether he's saved the money for the car or not. We received quotes from our insurance ranging anywhere from 1000-2500/year depending on the options he chooses. He has had no accidents and is a top notch student, so there's that benefit. I don't see our decision as punitive. On the contrary, I think we're robbing him of an opportunity to get a healthy dose of reality if we don't hasten his independence (or the revelation that he's not as self sufficient as he likes to think). We have 4 younger sons, as well, and the more we think about it, the more we feel strongly about setting them all on a course to purchase their own vehicle and maintain all their own expenses. With 5 boys, the number of tickets, accidents, etc...could quite possibly be high. If we want to protect our own policy and give them the opportunity to take full responsibility in a particular area, this one seems like a good choice. To be able to pay for their own transportation lock, stock and barrel is valuable. And it also seems like the next best step for this particular child. Our goal is not to lay an unnecessary burden on him financially.

Wow, I've never heard of that. Well, he would be living away at college with probably 1 roommate. He would come home occasionally, but I don't know if his primary residence on paper would listed as school or home. I'll have to ask my agent about this. We did get some quotes with a range of coverage, but I'll need to ask about whether he has to add other family members to his policy. Especially since he'll have 2 additional brothers who are licensed drivers and who still live at home.

Yes, we've discussed with our agent. This particular son is 19, and has been driving since the age of 17. There is no problem with being able to get his own policy. As far as my younger boys go, we've had a discussion with some friends recently who have kids approximately the same ages as our kids. They have each bought their own vehicles prior to the age of 18, and once they get their own cars, they're on a separate policy. Don't know if this varies by state, but apparently in Texas it is possible. I'm not primarily concerned with whether he'd be able to get covered on his own policy. I'd just like to hear from those who've done it why they decided to do so. As I mentioned in my original post, we have some very definite reasons for leaning in this direction, none of which have to do with saving $, because keeping him on our policy would be cheaper for him in the long run. I don't want to go into all the details so much because I don't really want my post to turn into a debate about whether others disagree with our reasons. But I know that, like our friends, there must be others who've handled the whole insurance issue differently than most, and I'd like to hear more about that.

I'd love to hear why you arrived at a decision to have separate policies. I know under the parents' policy, teens typically pay much less money for more coverage, so something other than money clearly has to motivate the decision. I have my own ideas about why we're leaning toward removing our oldest from our policy. If we do, we'll do the same with the younger 4, with the goal being that they buy their own car (or we might do the "401 Dave" Ramsey plan of matching a car purchase dollar for dollar.) Then they would be responsible for their own insurance, gas, maintenance, and repairs. So if your teen is on a separate policy, please tell me about the pluses and minuses. Thanks!

I didn't even know such a store existed until last week, when a friend mentioned that she finds most items to be cheaper at Winco than anywhere else. I usually shop at Aldi and Costco, and I get a few specialty items at Walmart. What do you find to be the best deals at Winco? Thanks! Lisa

Wanting to give him the title, but also want him to get the benefit of our policy coverage. Paying for a separate policy would cost him too much. Thanks!

Wow, I'd have to write a book to explain all the specifics. Let me see if I can be brief. Thank you all for your responses! We absolutely have been welcoming about him coming home. We'd be thrilled to have him, but I don't welcome the drama and the attitude, and the ingratitude. Money burns a hole in my son's pocket. He spends very foolishly down to the last dime. What little money we've offered to him for each year of college he doesn't want to take. He knows that there is some degree of accountability if he's getting a check from us, and he doesn't want any accountability at all. Which is fine, really. It works better for us not to be related by money. This is great in theory, but he hasn't been truly sticking to this idea for the last couple of months. Keeps asking us for a little money here and there while he spends, spends, spends wrecklessly. He says he wants to work so he can save money, but in reality, when he's working, he spends it all. He played six man football at a small university model school from 11-12 grade. Football is his dream right now. My husband and my husband's dad both played college football, and my husband also played professional football. So it's in the genes. My son definitely has the physique and the physical discipline to play.He has literally transformed his body over the last few years. He's 6'6, 240 lbs. and solid, ripped muscle. He's a hard worker. (No steroids, either, which people ask him all the time!) Because he has no 11 man football experience, no school was going to offer him an athletic scholarship. His grades/SAT scores were very good, but again, not good enough to get a full academic scholarship to a 4 year college. What we're able to offer per year is probably about 1/4 of what it would cost to go to a public university in Texas. He did get an academic scholarship to a community college (a couple hours away) that will cover tuition, room, board a books for at least half of the 2014-2015. They were glad to have him walk on the football team, and he left home to do some off season practice with them for the summer. He has a hip injury, and without going into a lot of details, he's decided to get surgery (as opposed to a cortisone injection). He will delay using his scholarship until the spring, which the school has already said they will allow. The coaches definitely want him back, and have been extremely impressed this summer with his work ethic in every way. They think he has tons of potential. So the plan would be for him to come home, have the surgery, do rehab, work as much as possible, and go back to school in the spring, taking advantage of his scholarship and training with the team for the next season. Ideally, he would be good enough in the coaches eyes to merit a football scholarship, either that or he'd do well enough in school to get his academic scholarship renewed. What causes problems at home? My son wants great freedom and minimal responsibility. He does not really want to invest in relationships with the rest of us. He has made it clear for a long time that he wants to live pretty much anywhere but home. He spends every dime he has, and he does so on frivolous things. At one point in the summer, he had $1000 of his own money in his account. By the end of the month, it was down to $200. Not on gas, insurance, etc...but on movies, eating out, entertainment, water parks, theme parks, etc...He talks big about saving money, but he spends it as soon as he gets it. He does work hard when he has a job, and he was a lifeguard all last year. He spends his free time blowing money with friends he has chosen unwisely doing things that are morally objectionable to us. He doesn't like the way he feels when he drinks alcohol, and says that he would never think about doing drugs. He knows both activities will risk his football prospects. But he hangs out with kids who are drinking underage, using drugs to one degree or another, and being promiscuous. And he functions as the designated driver, although we don't allow him to use our car in these situations. He has to drive someone else's vehicle. I am very grateful to have such a hardworking, ambitious son. His grades are fantastic and his personal work ethic is admirable. That being said, he's completely self absorbed. I am glad to have him come home theoretically, but he casts a dark shadow over our family's relationship dynamic. He'll ask us for a little extra money because he doesn't have enough for certain necessary expenses. The reason he doesn't have enough? He's spending his money foolishly in large amounts. We have been paying for his gas, insurance, and cell phone because he has wanted to save money for college expenses. He still hasn't saved any appreciable amount, and just keeps spending what he's earning. I'm not interested in having him come home for us to fund him and keep paying gas/insurance/clothing, etc...so he can use all his earned money for his social life. None of the rest of us in our family live that way. We have to say no to going out every Sunday for lunch, for example, like so many friends at church. If we want to pay basic expenses, plus put a little away for savings, you have to make hard choices. I don't begrudge any college student wanting to spend time with friends and spend money from time to time. But as Dave Ramsey says, if you want to save any money, you have to live like no one else in order to live like no one else. Broke is normal these days. And broke is normal for my son. If he was socking away his money in savings, I'd be glad to pay his insurance/gas/cell phone, etc...but he's not saving at all. I'm just enabling his poor habits to allow him to come home and not require more for him. If he comes home with no restrictions, I see him spending money unwisely, continuing to presume upon our generosity, not having any desire to invest in relationships, staying out late and often not coming home, out all hours doing who knows what, and loafing around the house eating and using wifi when he's not with friends or at work. Don't get me wrong. Feeding him and providing wifi are both things we're happy to do. But to a very ungrateful kid who wants a bunch of perks without any accountability...no way. Anyone living at home needs to be occupied most of the time with work or school, or volunteering...anything but having lots of free time. I hope this provides some clarification. We'd love to have him home, have a good relationship, and support his choice of friends/activities. But we just don't feel good about any of his decisions in these areas. And we don't feel good providing for him financially when he won't even use his own money wisely.

I'm looking at all areas: finances, car use, job (full time/part time), school, contribution to the family dynamic (relationships, lawn, household), even curfew? Circumstances outside my son's control dictate that he will have to return home (recent high school graduate...went away for the summer and now must return home for the fall semester due to a surgery and rehab.) He'll be leaving home again in January. It was a breath of fresh air for all parties involved that he was gone. We've been holding our breath for the last couple of years, knowing that the best thing for all of us, our son included, would be for him to live somewhere else. We love him dearly, but the family dynamic is greatly improved since he left. I see trouble coming now that he's had so much freedom over the last couple of months. Honestly, trouble is what we already had before he left, but I anticipate that it will increase, and I'm dreading it. I know that we need to clearly communicate our expectations regarding the next 5 months, but I'm not sure what those should be. We have 4 younger boys looking on as we take him back into our home, and if there's a way to lessen the tumult of him coming back, I'd like to do it. So what do you require of your adult child?

An easy way for me to think of my list is to imagine which toys I'll be keeping around until I have grandkids. These are the things I want them to be able to play with at my house: Lego K'nex Playmobil High quality blocks Snap Circuits Classic card and board Games Play Doh Nerf Costumes Matchbox cars Toy animal figures (especially dinosaurs!) Activity Books (Dangerous Book for Boys, etc...) Batman Imaginext. OK, I know this isn't classic, but we have several of the Batman Imaginext structures and lots of the small figures. They get played with constantly! Play food Any and all weapons: guns, swords and shields, slingshots, etc... Brio Trains Bubbles and Sidewalk chalk sports equipment (balls, roller blades, bikes) My son just said "Sofa cushions and blankets." Amen to that :)

Believe it or not, I actually have the book by Turansky and Miller. I need to get it off shelf and actually read it! Thanks for the reminder! Screen time is virtually non-existent for my boys. We don't do video games, and we limit web surfing to a minimum. I do think things would be 10 times worse if they played video games!

I'm wanting to keep my 15 and 13 year old boys busy this summer. I'd like them to try their hand at painting a few bedrooms/bathrooms. I've never done my own painting, so I don't really know what I'm getting myself into. Any advice would be helpful. Have your teens done indoor painting? Are there parts that are too difficult for them that you take charge of? (painting near trim/ceiling, taping, etc...) How have things turned out?

Our bickering really runs the gamut. "You were the last one with the remote control. You find it yourself." "Mom, he won't get out of my room" "Mom, he won't get off my bed." "Mom, he smiled at me when you told me to go clean my room." "Stop whining. You don't have it nearly as bad as me." "Get off the computer, you've been on long enough." "Mom, he won't get off the computer." "I have to do school, all you want to do is surf the internet." "You always take the last muffin!" "Well, you took the last brownie yesterday." "Mom, he shouldn't get the last muffin." "Stop humming." "Mom, he won't stop humming." "I was in here first, if you don't like my humming then go out." "Nuh-uh, I was in here first. I just got up to go to the bathroom." "He always tells me to stop making every little noise." "He always makes noise because he knows it bothers me." "Your ipod is way too loud. I can hear the music coming out of your headphones. Turn it down." "No...I have it turned to the exact volume that mom lets me." "There's no way...Mom, tell him to turn his ipod down!" "Hey, you're doing that without permission...." Really, it's all so embarrassing. It gets really petty.

I've moved more toward a "better late than early" mindset. I've seen that I needlessly created many tears at an early age for my older kids trying to slog through school tasks that were just too hard for them. I've relaxed a lot over the years, and I think my youngest, age 7, is actually enjoying school by being allowed to progress at a pace that suits him.

I have some ideas of things I'd like them to read, like books about $ for kids, Amusing Ourselves to Death, a few biographies, some Christian books (Heaven for Kids, Do Hard Things, some basic theology). If you have any that you've had your kids read and highly recommend, I'd love to hear. Also, it would be even better if they actually *loved* or at least *liked* the book. I don't want to torture them needlessly or make them need a book that really resonated with me that they're going to roll their eyes about. I'm open to almost anything. Thanks! Lisa

My kids seem like they're never happier than when they're arguing. I have four boys ages 18 down to 7. The older ones aren't quite as difficult, although my youngest two can really push their buttons. Youngest boys are 13 and 7 and I think they must might kill each other. Honestly, they are two of the most difficult people I know. What, if anything, have you done successfully to change the sibling dynamics? Lisa

Great idea. No reason for you to be paying that kind of money. Thanks for all you've done to support these boards. They're a goldmine of information!

I wonder...about the privacy issue...could it be reported as cash instead of gold? Wouldn't that satisfy their need to know how $ we have without having to specify gold? For their purposes, I don't think they care about the form it takes.

Yes, I understand what you're saying about the logic. I said, "For our own purposes, we consider gold to be in that category. We will not be selling it to pay for any portion of our kids' college expenses. But fafsa may not care what our plans are for the gold. I'm guessing that the spirit of the question is to get an idea of our total liquid assets. In that sense, yes, the gold *could* be converted to cash immediately." I understand that our plans for the gold are irrelevant to fafsa's definition of a commodity. Yes, you make a good point about the metal commodity fund. My husband has considered this as a shelter for our gold. We're still trying to understand all the other implications for this.

My oldest two boys attend a University Model School, and our involvement is almost zero. This is my first year in Classical Conversations with my youngest son, also. Again, almost zero volunteering from me, unfortunately. We have 3 younger boys that we homeschool, and my elderly parents live with us too. My health over the last year has been absolutely debilitating at times. This is just not my season for volunteering at school. In the past, however, we have been very active, and I expect that as our life situation and family demographics change, we will once again be in a season of volunteering in these capacities. On the other hand, we volunteer heavily with our scout troop. My husband, especially, is one of the most involved dads in the troop. He's also a deacon at church and a Wednesday night leader for our youth group. I was on the ladies hospitality committee for a very long time before my health took a turn for the worst. We teach preschool Sunday School, and have done so for years. So, we're heavily involved i our scout troop and our church. Much more so than most of the other families. But we can't be at the forefront, or even the background in some cases, of every activity our kids attend. At the University Model School my older two attend, there are some parents who have very few kids, or whose youngest children are the only ones left at home. These are the ones who run concessions, plan the junior/senior banquet, chaperone the senior trips, coordinate prayer breakfasts, teacher appreciation efforts, etc...I hope they don't feel about me the way you feel about some of the other parents in your troop who don't currently participate. Parents like these who contribute so much at school may not be contributing at all at church, in the community, or at other events. Maybe their "thing" is school involvement. We don't all have equal time, talent, or interest available for all our kids' involvements. Several of our close friends volunteer at election time for just about every event. I have never volunteered for an election. And every time I vote and the process runs smoothly, I benefit from their donation of time. I don't feel guilty. There will always be people who are complete moochers, but I would hesitate to assume so about most people. Everyone's got a story. Sometimes I feel the urge to tell people at my boys' school why I'm not more involved. I try to avoid justifying myself. They might think I'm just using them for my kids' benefit and not giving anything in return. I think if they knew my situation and my other involvements, they would think differently. My involvements wax and wane, but I always do as much as I can given the current circumstances.

Investor privacy is pretty important for people who own gold and silver bullion/coins (kangaroos, maples, American eagles). Our homeschool advisor says it doesn't have to be reported, and that fafsa/colleges don't have the authority from the government to pry into your financial status beyond what's reported on your tax return. My question isn't whether we can get away with not reporting it. My question is whether it's even required. Annuities, for example, aren't supposed to be reported because they're for retirement. For our own purposes, we consider gold to be in that category. We will not be selling it to pay for any portion of our kids' college expenses. But fafsa may not care what our plans are for the gold. I'm guessing that the spirit of the question is to get an idea of our total liquid assets. In that sense, yes, the gold *could* be converted to cash immediately. But we're not going to do that. Any advice? We don't want to skirt the requirements in any way, but also don't want to put gold on the government's radar if it's not required. If you're "in the know" about this, I'd really like to hear from you. Thanks!

Dr. appt. for me go to son's dr. to replace knee brace return library materials do school with ds 7 dig out from the pile of papers and bills stacked in my office

Wow, this has been food for thought, for sure. Does anyone out there have an experience where your thoughts and impressions going in turned out to be reality? I'm mostly hearing warnings and misgivings right now.

I've finally settled on Jann in TX. My son will be repeating Algebra I, because we feel like he didn't grasp it as well as he should have, and it's so important to understand before going on to Algebra II. Thanks everyone for your input!

I like "absolutely", as in "absolutely not!", which I use with my kids often. :) We purposely butcher the work therapeutic because of an Andy Griffith episode, where Barney pronounces it "Thera-pettic." Therapeutic just doesn't sound right any more. Boogered or boogery. For when we get fabric pills on our sheets or clothes. "The sheets are all boogered up. We need new ones." Malady, insipid, passe