What, IYHO, makes a "thinking" child?

[profmom]

Having been a straight-A student who was able to get through most of school without thinking deeply, I'm wanting more for my children. What are some things, IYHO, that make the difference in shaping a child that enjoys thinking and knows how to think deeply?

 

(Lots of reading and discussing that reading? Poetry??)

[Rebecca in GA]

For mine, it means lots of margins. A certain amount of information has to be introduced to them by me as their teacher, but my children also need free time to make connections between the information they've gotten here and the information they've gotten there.

 

By margins, I mean giving my children time to explore on their own outside the boundaries of "school." If we read and discuss (narrate) the story of Cornelia's Jewels, they may run across a similar theme at church or in a fairy tale they're reading for fun. Aesop's Fables may intersect with Brer Rabbit or a study of mammals with an episode of The Crocodile Hunter. Each connection they make on their own through reading or experimenting deepens their understanding in a way I could never do through drilling or quizzing.

 

A "thinking child" doesn't separate school from life, is what I guess I'm trying to say. He wouldn't need to have all of his learning spoon-fed to him and then leave it behind when he's ready to get on with the task of living. I've said this before, but that's why it's more important to teach our children how to find out things for themselves than to hit all the marks on a scope and sequence chart.

[Gwen in VA]

Discussion, discussion, discussion -- about everything, everywhere. Ask lots of questions yourself, pursue answers, and try to end every lunch with an encyclopedia volume at the table because you were looking something up.

 

Is your family 8nterested in politics? science? music? Read books, get magazines, and talk, talk, talk....no assignments, but just casual conversations.

 

Ask why? who benefits? what if? does that fit with our notions of right and wrong?

 

Talk, talk, talk.

 

Consider getting your kids involved in debate. Even if they only do it for a year, learning to look at assumptions and errors in reasoning is fantastic training.

[Pegasus]

Yep, discussions with thinking adults is the best way. When they ask a question, don't immediately provide the answer. Ask what they think may be the answer. If they have no idea, provide hints or ask leading questions, so that they can finally "discover" the answer for themself.

 

Also, admit when you are wrong about something. It's important to model the ability to change your thinking when new evidence is found.

 

Pegasus

[Jane in NC]

Having been a straight-A student who was able to get through most of school without thinking deeply...

 

I too was one of the straight A students for whom high school was a breeze. (Exception: the math class that used Dolciani's Modern Introductory Analysis.) Skipping a year of high school, I continued the pattern during my first semester in college. Second semester I unwittingly altered things by enrolling in a class in Shakespeare. It was a class for Juniors and Seniors so I had to seek special permission from the professor for enrollment. I will never forget this. He asked me why I wanted to take his class. I told him that I wanted to be an educated person and asked how could I be educated if I did not study Shakespeare. He signed my form.

 

That class was my turning point. The depth at which we had to discuss the plays required several readings over the course of the week. Being assigned a play a week, I had my nose in my Complete Shakespeare almost constantly. I listened to recordings of the plays (no video back then!) I had to ask constantly what the relationships of characters were, if the subsequent actions of characters reflected their words, what double meanings the words themselves might have. It was the hardest course of my undergraduate career and I never felt my brain hurt like this again until graduate school when I studied mathematics!

 

Discussions do help, but students also need to be pushed and pulled to expand their minds. I think that it is beneficial to tackle new things, be it poetry for engineers or mathematics for poets. Being able to read challenging material, be it philosophy or a physics text, is not automatic. It takes years of practice. (Hmmm...what is the connection between deep reading and deep thinking?) Listening to symphonic music is another acquired skill. We attend the local symphony as a family, making a point of arriving early for the pre-concert lectures. This is where those connections that others have mentioned are made. How does this music fit within the context of music history and cultural history? One can enjoy the music without this knowledge but we find we enjoy it more if we know something about it. We don't have all the answers so we need experts like the conductor to help give us the needed background.

 

None of us ever stops learning which is what makes home schooling so attractive to me.

 

What a great thread! Thanks everybody!

Jane

[Michelle in MO]

issues, cultural events, politics, TV programs, books, etc. However, I would also add that writing helps kids learn how to think. My two older girls are doing an online writing tutorial, and although they are good writers (i.e., they have a natural propensity for turning a nice phrase) they are not fluent writers yet because writing forces them to think and then put those thoughts down on paper. The tutorial is excellent---but it is forcing them to think logically and with style, and this is sometimes difficult for them. Slowly but surely I'm seeing improvement with them---not only in their writing, but also in the speed with which they're able to get their thoughts onto paper.

 

There's another concept that is common in classical circles: copia, the abundant supply of thoughts, words, phrases, and ideas. This, again, comes from children being exposed to these things through books, plays, magazine articles, family discussions over the dinner table, discussions during school time, etc. My dad heard an analogy given by a speaker at IBM (where he worked) on teaching children how to read: the speaker said that parents should "pour" words over their children frequently, and the reading would "flow" much more easily after that. That analogy may work also for teaching children how to think: this "copia"---this abundant supply of books, articles, discussions, etc., will build a "storehouse" within children of thoughts and phrases. Through their own life experiences and interaction with life, this supply will eventually become their own.

[Anne in Hawaii]

(paraphrasing here, of course) that we think by asking questions. Someone who knows how to ask questions will be a thinker. I think some people just naturally ask questions, but those who don't can be trained. I agree with those who've said that discussion without providing all the answers is crucial. And reading, of course -- lots of good books.

[mcconnellboys]

I agree! Never stop asking!

 

Regena

[Michelle in MO]

Second semester I unwittingly altered things by enrolling in a class in Shakespeare. It was a class for Juniors and Seniors so I had to seek special permission from the professor for enrollment. I will never forget this. He asked me why I wanted to take his class. I told him that I wanted to be an educated person and asked how could I be educated if I did not study Shakespeare. He signed my form.

 

That class was my turning point. The depth at which we had to discuss the plays required several readings over the course of the week. Being assigned a play a week, I had my nose in my Complete Shakespeare almost constantly. I listened to recordings of the plays (no video back then!) I had to ask constantly what the relationships of characters were, if the subsequent actions of characters reflected their words, what double meanings the words themselves might have. It was the hardest course of my undergraduate career and I never felt my brain hurt like this again until graduate school when I studied mathematics!

 

Discussions do help, but students also need to be pushed and pulled to expand their minds. I think that it is beneficial to tackle new things, be it poetry for engineers or mathematics for poets. Being able to read challenging material, be it philosophy or a physics text, is not automatic. It takes years of practice.

 

This indeed sounds like it was a wonderful class, Jane! I had a class like that in college, too. It wasn't Shakespeare, but it was one in which we had to do quite a bit of intensive library research, and the final was a bear. The professor was kind, but exacting, and I learned so much from that class and just from that professor!

 

I also think that when kids have the opportunity to listen to and participate in conversations with adults, be it politics, religion, or whatever, this also aids in the art of thinking.

[Sandra in FL]

what ages/grades are your dds?

 

TIA,

Sandra

[Michelle in MO]

Right now my older two are doing a tutorial with Cindy Marsch, the Advanced Level of her Progymnasmata tutorials. They did the Beginning level over the summer, then most of the Intermediate level in the autumn, which we continued over to her January-February session. Cindy says it can take more than one session to complete the Intermediate/Advanced levels, which is what happened with us. So, they just finished Intermediate about a week ago, and are doing the Advanced now. The session ends this Friday. I also had my oldest do a Bravewriter SAT/ACT timed essay class, although I noticed recently that Cindy is also doing private tutorials along those lines. You can find her at Writing Assessment Services. She is very precise but also kind and realistic about her expectations, taking into account grade and age levels of the children. She also does a great job in forcing them to think logically through their papers. The Progymnasmata tutorials are geared towards the classical progymnasmata, but the modern equivalent eventually leads young writers into beginning and perhaps somewhat more advanced essay writing. She has a Great Books writing tutorial, as well, and is available on a consultation basis or your own program (i.e., you could give your dc assignments from Omnibus or some other program, send them to her, and she could evaluate them) with one of her evaluation packages.

 

I also really enjoyed Julie Bogart's Bravewriter class. My oldest struggled with it, but that is because she struggles with shyness and a lack of self-confidence in her writing ability. The format was different: it was a public forum, in which each student posted their work in groups, and were able to see other students' works and comment on these. Everything was kept extremely positive, but I think this format made my dd self-conscious. However, I kept reminding her that in college it might happen that essays or other papers might be read aloud. After all, the purpose of writing is to share our thoughts, right? :) At least, that's what I tried to tell her. Nevertheless, Julie's instructions were clear and I still felt that the benefit of the class will come later for my oldest, as she gains confidence in her skills. Bravewriter has other tutorials, as well.

 

With my youngest, I'm using IEW, and after finishing that series, I may enroll her in one of the younger Bravewriter classes. I think she has a Kids Write Basics class (I may have muddled this name) and a "Just So Stories" (Kipling) class for younger writers. I've been reading The Writer's Jungle by Julie Bogart, and it's a very nurturing, Charlotte Mason-style approach to writing. It really speaks to me about a family lifestyle that nurtures young writers and encourages writing to come more naturally than anything else.

 

Both tutors are excellent; just a different style and approach. I personally have contacted Cindy Marsch to help me prepare for the two timed essays I need to do for my GRE at the end of March! :eek: Angst!

 

HTH!

[Jane in NC]

I personally have contacted Cindy Marsch to help me prepare for the two timed essays I need to do for my GRE at the end of March! :eek: Angst!

 

HTH!

 

What will you be studying in grad school?

 

Jane (who remembers when the GRE did not have essays...)

[Michelle in MO]

a certification in English literature, if possible. I feel like I need to be more practical than what I'd like to be. In other words, I'm interested in teaching, but also need to be employable in our area, which is a small town.

 

My dream would be to see a classical Christian school start in our area, and possibly to help spearhead such a school. However, the "climate" just isn't right for that here; there are too few homeschoolers, and an even smaller subset who have heard of classical education. Plus, there is the usual independence of spirit that accompanies homeschooling, so some of these moms do their own thing. By saying that, I don't mean to criticize. One mom is interested in such a school, but her son struggles with dyslexia, so she doesn't know about enrolling him in such a place. However, if our area was ever blessed with a good school like that, I'd rather be the Latin teacher!

 

I don't know if this will ever happen in our small town. I love where we live, but sometimes the attitudes towards education really bug me. My husband used this analogy with a friend of ours, discussing the situation: "If all you've ever eaten is white bread, you would think that white bread is the greatest and the only type of bread available. You would be completely ignorant of the fact that there are hundreds of varieties of delicious breads out there--whole wheat, cinnamon raisin, ciabattas, Italian bread, etc." But, our town is like that: the public schools are "great" and if mom and dad went there, it's good enough for junior, too! Plus, unfortunately, there's not enough consensus among the churches to band together to start a classical Christian school.

 

Enough of that rant! But---yes, the GRE is at the end of March and has two timed writing essays: one is an issue analysis (45 minutes) and the second is an argument analysis (30 minutes). Those come first, then I think there's a short break, and then you start the verbal portion and then the quantitative portion. I've asked dear Cindy Marsch to help me because I want to make sure my arguments are focused and cogent. Of course, there's no way of knowing ahead of time what topics you'll be assigned. It could be that they added the writing section for the same reason the SAT's and ACT's added the timed essay: maybe too many students are graduating without good writing skills? I don't know---this is speculation on my part.

 

Can you help me with the quantitative portion, Jane? :D My middle daughter was doing her algebra test this morning, and before I handed it to her looked at the last problem, thinking, "Well, dear, I hope you can do this one, because I sure can't!" For that, I'm studying the GRE practice book I bought (Princeton Review) and also doing Aleks.com for myself.

 

Thanks for asking, though! I know you must have pursued your graduate coursework in math, because you are so knowledgeable in that area! BTW, where is Adrian? I remember him as another math type and haven't seen him post recently.

[Pegasus]

I wanted to share this article I read today. It seems appropriate for this thread: "Critical Thinking: What it is and why it counts."

 

http://www.insightassessment.com/pdf_files/what&why2006.pdf

 

Pegasus

[Jane in NC]

 

My dream would be to see a classical Christian school start in our area, and possibly to help spearhead such a school. However, the "climate" just isn't right for that here; there are too few homeschoolers, and an even smaller subset who have heard of classical education.

 

 

 

...with respect to education. I felt like the lone wolf from the get go with my son studying Latin and the Great Books. An interesting thing happened though. A couple of mothers with children younger than mine discovered Classical Conversations last year. They have formed a small, lively and growing group. In our area, there is a Christian elementary school that goes through fifth and a more recently established Christian middle school that is experiencing growing pains. While it seems that more formerly home schooled students are now attending one of two public high schools ('traditional' or the new early college model), there are more families with middle school aged students testing the waters of homeschooling. Frankly, most parents are less than pleased with our public middle school. I suspect that alternatives would be welcome in many communities!

 

Anyway it was fun to talk to these Moms the other day about how much they are enjoying the program, particularly Latin. Dream on, Michelle! You may find your like minded souls eventually!

 

Yes, I do have an MS in Mathematics, pure not applied, as does Adrian, who occasionally posts on these forums now as Charon.

 

Good luck in your endeavors!

Jane

[cajun.classical]

I've scanned the other posts and there's lots of good points made in those. I've always thought it very important to be able to synthesis information learned and apply it to new areas. That demonstrates a true understanding.

 

When I taught in high school and college, I was never much impressed with someone who could parrot back what I said or who could quote the book. I wanted to see that knowledge become a part of the student. Tell it to me in your own words and then tell me how what you've just learned fits in or changes everything else you've ever learned. Connect the dots... That's when I knew that the lightbulb had truly been turned on. That's a great moment for a teacher.