Children don't want to be read to

[tdbates78]

Hello! I am new to this forum and new to homeschooling. I just pulled my 7 year old twin daughters out of public school right before winter break and we officially started homeschooling on January 3rd. One of my girls has high functioning autism and was having a lot of difficulties in the classroom.

 

Homeschooling is going great so far, except for one problem...my girls have a complete lack of interest when it comes to my reading aloud to them. We've been reading to them since they were infants so it's not like they haven't been exposed. I didn't realize how much this would affect things until homeschool. I purchased The Story of the World and I was excited to get started but they just do not want to listen and pay attention. They whine, moan and groan and fidget and therefore retain nothing. Same thing with pretty much any book I read to them, and we've tried a variety. I would like to start a unit study on Little House in the Big Woods and in my fantasy I picture the three of us cuddling on my bed reading a chapter or two a day and then doing lap books or fun activities based on the book but I just don't see it happening.

 

Anyone else have children like mine? I'm wondering if maybe we would have more success with audio books? I prefer to read to them, but if an audio book would hold their interest I would gladly do it. I notice that The Story of the World is available on audio CDs so I'm thinking about giving it a try but I thought I would post here from some of the "been there/done that" parents that have more experience than I do for some advice first.

 

Thanks!

Tracy

[OneStepAtATime]

Welcome! :)

 

Are you giving them something to do while you read?  Or are you requiring them to sit still and "listen"?

 

I ask because my kids had to have something to do with their bodies before their minds could focus on what I was reading.  DS would often build with Legos.  DD would frequently do art projects or puzzles.  Or we would do a read aloud while they were eating breakfast or lunch.  It gave them something to occupy them physically so they weren't having to spend all of their mental energy sitting still.

 

Also, you might try read alouds after they have had some significant physical exercise.

 

As for audio books, they might or might not do better with those.  You can always just try it out and see.  Maybe they would be able to listen better, though, if they had noise canceling headsets.  DS does better with noise canceling headsets while he listens on his own instead of listening as a group.

Edited January 17, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Storygirl]

I had the same issue with some of my children. I would read to them while they ate lunch (I would eat before or after them). We had a routine of reading before bed (since they were infants), and we continued with that. So I would break our reading time into smaller chunks throughout the day.

 

That was for our chapter book readalouds. For our other schoolwork, I ended up switching our curriculum choices to those that were less dependent on having me read to them. 

 

It was sad for me, because it was not the vision that I had for our homeschool experience, but it was what I needed to do to work effectively with the children that I have.

 

At their ages, you can switch gears just slightly and do literature studies based on picture books instead of chapter books. We had a lot of fun using Literature Pockets. I would say that the time we spent doing Literature Pocket studies came the closest to my ideal homeschool experience with my kids. I really recommend them. The same company does History Pockets as well, which we also used.

 

Keep reading to them at bedtime (or whenever you do it in your family), but think about switching your plan for school work so that it is less reading intensive. 

 

It's okay to feel sad about that, but it may be what your children need.

[PeterPan]

Jumping to the bottom here, only because I'm tired. Long day, will read more tomorrow.

 

There are multiple reasons why your kids with ASD are refusing the read alouds, and you're probably going to have to address ALL of them at some point. My ds has been very, very similar. He's just a year older than your dc, so there you go.

 

-language--Do you have detailed language testing scores on them? If you don't, you won't know till you get it.

-behavioral--We began in-home ABA and had THEM work on the behavioral portion. This was helpful for us.

-reality check--You've got kids with developmental delays, and you're trying to do things that are age appropriate. That's not appropriate. You're going to have to back up a few years. Ask your BCBA straight how many years delayed they are and be realistic. They're probably going to need picture books (an earlier developmental stage!) because it will help them connect the language and pictures. Back way, way up like this.

-ADHD--If you have it comorbid, that will make things even more exciting. 

 

Sigh, I bought the SOTW1 and 2 activity books for my ds. He's very much a kinesthetic learner, so I figured doing the ACTIVITIES with him would be better than nothing. Thing is, you could just tell there was no click until just very, very recently. And he's solidly 8 now. So think about that. His delay is, as our behaviorist puts it, "not more than two years." And now, at solid 8, he can just start to do SOMETHING from there and connect and enjoy it. 

 

But we did a lot of ABA to get to that point. Like we've had ABA since last May, so 8 or 9 months now. It helps him perspective take. It helps him realize he might be interested in something we're suggesting if he gave it a chance. He couldn't DO any of that before. He was too lost in his autism world, too withdrawn. Now he can engage because someone suggested it, but he couldn't then. I'm not saying it's perfect, but he can.

 

Personally, what I would do is put your SOTW away for at least a year, maybe two or three. There are people who do SOTW for junior high. There are people who do Little House in junior high. I GET why you want to do it now. My dd loved it at this age! I get it! But I'm just saying you're going to have to roll with who they are and where they are.

 

What *has* been good with my ds is rolling with his interests. My ds has an obsession, a special interest, and what you can do is *chain* from their special interest. So don't try to do history with them. Instead go ok, my kid is really into ponies. (pick a thing, I don't kjnow what your dd's special interests are) So then you go ok, ponies, and anything PONIES you can find, you do! You get audiobooks with horses. You get DK books about horses. On and on. But then you kind of *chain* things. So you go ok I read about these horses in VA, where is VA... And then you're like horse shoes are good luck and it's from Ireland, where is Ireland. Or horses have this biology and can we do a kit that has a model of the internals of a horse. They for real sell these kits! They're clear and have guts I think. Others are 4D or you cast and paint them. 

 

So you CHAIN from their interests to diversify them a bit. Chain to poetry. A horse is an animal so I got you this book of animal poetry. Start by reading the horse poem, but then hey that was by de la Mere and he wrote this other one we could read...  See? Not just a unit study, but then chaining it to things they didn't REALIZE they would enjoy. Horses get vaccinated, history of vaccines, history of medicine, what types of doctors, doctors go to Africa to help people, charity work is good, we can do charity work in the soup kitchen... Now your horse child is volunteering at a soup kitchen. :)

 

My ds has a kindle fire. I can't imagine life without it. It's both a language input source and intervention tool AND stim. Like to me, anything you do that repetitively and obsessively is a stim. If they don't understand the books, go lower, put on ambient. You can have low expressive/receptive but still get the vocabulary up. Or maybe they won't be able to learn that way, but they MIGHT.

 

I would definitely get realistic. Were your dc doing any work in school? I mean, you pulled them out, so I'm guessing it wasn't going so hot. There's almost nothing traditional about anything my ds does. That would be in the fat chance category. I'm thinking about ordering him an online science two grades ahead. We did it before, and it was fine though he got bored. I want to see if the ABA worker can help with that, especially if we double pace. But even then we have to read him the text and scribe. And he'll still get bored. But a *little* boredom can be ok. Like it's actually a *goal* for us to have times each session where he works independently and has to problem solve how to use his time for a bit. It's a behavioral goal for us. But we didn't just jump there. That was like after 6 months of ABA we said hmm let's try to add this. It's hard and requires a lot of structure. 

 

I think it's ok to find little things that flow well from their special interests and that fit well with skills or strengths they already have. If you're working on something that isn't yet a strength, you are going to have behaviors. And if a dc is not in green zone (read about the Zones of Regulation), he's probably not in ready to learn. And when my ds is not in ready to learn, he's REALLY not in ready to learn. So we had to spend a long time doing idiotic stuff that got him to where he got that there's a routine, we can calm down, this is the plan, this is how we take breaks to stay calm, etc. THEN we were in ready to learn and could start bringing in some things actually to work on. 

 

Is there something they really like to do? And do they have personal special interests or obsessions you could harness?

Edited January 17, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I'm giving the SOTW activities to my new ABA worker who likes to do activities. Those should be easy to get compliance with, and they're highly motivating.  I'm giving some read alouds on the topic (Egypt) to my more experienced ABA worker, because I know those read alouds will have behaviors and need some work and structure. And I'm keeping the most fun stuff for me, hehe. No, seriously, I have a couple really trim sources I want to read to him myself in order to discuss.

 

We won't be using the SOTW narrative text at all. You don't need it. You could do it with picture books, websites, DK books, ANYTHING you want or have. I have a terrific DK book on Ancience Egypt. No way am I going to read some wordy, socially-based narrative to a boy who has no central coherence, who will totally miss the point anyway.

 

Conversely, I AM going to have him do little timeline figures, because I think it will interest him. But again, they don't have to be pre-done. They COULD be the dc's special interest occuring over time. :D Like if it's horses, then show horses with Peter the Great, horses with Washington, etc. etc. 

SaveSave

Edited January 17, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Have you tried documentaries yet? Seriously, my ds inhales documentaries. He likes History Channel. He also does really well with kindle audiobooks, even though he didn't engage with regular read alouds for me. I think it's the speed or the music or something.

[Storygirl]

I had to come back to add something. First, yes to what Elizabeth says about exploring how the ASD and other possible issues is impacting things. 

 

But also...They are seven. So in either first or second grade.

1) Pick a math curriculum and a reading program, and do them daily. With each of them independently, if necessary.

 

2)  continue your daily readaloud that you have always done, but don't add more to that or make it into "school" for them. Just do it as family time.

 

3) Go the library, help them pick out books they would like to read, and have them read or look at books silently for a short period each day. Start with five or ten minutes if that is all they can do.

 

4) Choose some picture books about science and history, and read one aloud each day and have them narrate something they learned. Have them sit one on either side of you on the couch while you do this, so that they can see the book and read along with you. Depending on their reading skills, have them take turns reading a sentence. Make the reading session interactive. And SHORT. Only 10 minutes, even if it means you take several days to finish one picture book.

 

5) Add in a craft project if they like that sort of thing. Piano lesson, maybe. Have them watch a short educational video. Or do the Lit Pockets I mentioned. But keep this fun and geared to their interests.

 

6) Work on real life skills, like folding laundry, cooking, simple cleaning. My kids are older now, and we are still working on basics in these areas. It takes my kids a long time to accomplish learning these things, so it's good to start young and establish family routines. Make checklists and teach them how to use them, etc. 

 

And that is all. Maybe spelling if their reading and phonics are already solid. Otherwise, focus on establishing new routines and see what kind of therapies or tutoring you may need to add to your weekly schedule. 

 

Be prepared to set aside all the plans that you made already, and just keep it simple.

 

This is what I wish someone had told me. I read The Well-Trained Mind and thought I had to Do It All. And Do It Right. It took me too long to find a different path.

 

As your kids grow older, you can add other things back in. I'm not saying to drop them forever, but if they are not working now, switch to another plan.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Storygirl

[PeterPan]

How is their behavior? How is their self-regulation? Why did you pull them out of school?  

 

If self-regulation and behavior aren't there, you can't do any of the things Story listed. If they are, that list is awesome. However I can tell you that for my ds, he wasn't there. I could try to take him to the library, but it was hard. He was better with science videos and Magic School Bus than books. Nope, wasn't interested in craft projects. Remember, they have to be in your world enough that they give a rip about doing what you're suggesting rather than going and doing what they prefer to do. 

 

Nope, no ability to do worksheets (at the beginning) and curriculum here, but he also has the SLDs. Thing is, a percentage of kids with ASD have IQ issues too. It's just very hard to find curriculum that fits my ds. Like you could do it to him, but it would be sad. He learns really well with games.

 

You've got someone who, by definition, is in their own world. And a really top-down educational model too early communicates to them that the ONLY thing that is valuable is what YOU say, not what they are interested in. And that really has consequences, kwim? It's ok to think through that or slow down or work into that gradually. Your ABA and social thinking work helps them see that they enjoy being with other people and that they might enjoy doing what the other person suggests, even if they weren't initially interested. It's a social thinking thing that allows them to get to that point. 

 

So social thinking, behavioral goals, self-regulation, these are the things that allow Story's list to work. If you don't have those things, it's ok to work on that foundation first. Games, pretend play, life skills. Lots of games, pretend play, and doing together and then slowly interspersing small demands there. Like hey, we're going to play this game, but could we just do 5 minutes of this coloring first? Like start super small like that.

 

That's how they get them to build up their tolerance for things. You do their preferred thing and start slowly weaving in demands. So maybe your list has read alouds, but they see it coming and they know it's only 5 minutes and they know afterward they're going to do xyz really preferred thing. And you do it in a cozy, contained space so they can't run away or use escape behaviors. And you do it with a picture book and accessible language on a highly preferred topic. 

 

We actually started getting a LOT done with my ds, once we got this routine of preferred and demands. He gets to do a lot of preferred things, and we're able to make demands and get things done that maybe he wouldn't have chosen for himself. There's balance with that. But that's your ABA language, once you start thinking it through as preferred and demands. What do they PREFER to do? I can guarantee you if you were to bring in an ABA team, they'd spend multiple sessions looking for what is motivating to the dc and use that to bridge. It can be sort of negative, but it can also be really positive! We keep it pretty positive, like ok let's do this thing for 5 minutes with good effort because then we're going to do this next thing on the list that you really prefer and will be motivated by.

 

For my ds, motivation is huge. They spend a lot of time looking for what motivates him. And then, when I know we *can* get compliance and that we *are* using good motivators, then I'm able to say hey, he's trying, this is STILL not working, so it's not that he doesn't WANT to but that he can't. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I always homeschooled my dd sort of romantically, moving around from room to room, chasing the son, etc. My ds was NON-FUNCTIONAL in that kind of open space. Now I'm sure kids with ASD vary, but for him some of what seemed like "can'ts" improved almost magically by changing the environment. We started in a small, singular space, and then we moved to a full bedroom with 4 spaces set up to work.

 

You can actually google and find articles on ASD classroom layouts. It's a whole field. Christine Reeve has articles on her website and video links and books. LOVE Christine Reeve. I poured over that stuff for hours and hours making our room!

 

For us, the room was pivotal, essential. We were toast without that. 

 

I'm just saying I'd hate for you to assume it's the curriculum or it's this or that. It can be lots of things. If behavior, anxiety, expectations, structure, the space, etc. are issues, then those won't improve till you work on them, no matter how much you streamline. We all use schedules with my ds. We have whiteboards for every worker, a weekly calendar whiteboard, etc. etc. These are just really important, basic strategies, like increasing structure, environmental control, etc. You may have to change a lot of things and have ALL of them start to come together before you start seeing the work you're wanting to see.

 

Homeschooling my ds is *just* starting to get romantic after 8 months of ABA. Up until now it was more in the category of oh my lands.

[PeterPan]

You searched for layout - Autism Classroom Resources

 

That's Reeve's site. She also has a great TPT store and FB page. If you haven't been to her TPT store, head there. If you want to do any academics, that's what I would do. You basically can't go wrong with her stuff. I LOVE TPT, because I can get a free sample, try it for $3, then go ok maybe not, and go a different direction. Or you learn something you didn't expect about your kids! But she might have some stuff your kids would like. A lot of the curriculum materials people are generating for autism bridge well between levels and IQs. Or it might inspire you with more things you could make yourself or typical student things you could buy that would work. 

 

I'm wanting to buy or make some skip counting puzzles. They have them on TPT and I just haven't gotten it done. It was from someone I follow, can't remember. Here's another I have open right now. Teachers Pay Teachers It's making cute snowflakes. Her snowflakes are way better than mine, and ds would enjoy these! And those are MOTIVATING, and we can call it school! You've got fine motor, compliance, attending. It's stellar stuff! But you don't have to buy the kit if you don't want. You could probably google.

 

bookmark | krokotak  I'm meaning to try these. This lady is from Poland and she's super creative. I liked the little corners and the bookworm one.

 

Ooo, my ds did really well with Djeco kits at that age!!  Have you tried Djeco kits? They're very structured, and they come with duplicate pages of the projects, so both your dc could do the same project! Timberdoodle sells them. Timberdoodle is incredibly intuitive on the fun stuff they include in their curriculum kits. I don't use any actual curriculum they recommend, because it just wouldn't fit him. But for the fun extras, perfect.

 

In other words, the stuff we've been doing for "school" the last few years is typically more subtle, more fun, more on the game/play/preschool side. Like workbooks from Walmart are sometimes good with my ds. I got him some ones by Highlights a few months ago, and he got a LOT of mileage from them! 

 

Highlights Hidden Pictures® Favorite Discovery Puzzles (Favorite Hidden Pictures®): Highlights for Children: 9781620917695: Amazon.com: Books  This has the pictures of the items, rather than just the words. Or see them in the store and see for yourself. For my ds, it was harder to read the list of words and pull the picture from his head. The books that have the pictures of what you're looking for help that. But think about it, you're coloring (fine motor!), working together or taking turns (social), communicating (language), and it's MOTIVATING. This is good school! I had my ds reading the list of words and we called it our reading time. 

 

Oh, I just remembered joke books. Have you tried joke books on them? National Geographic has some for kids. My ds likes animals. You read them to them and explain or else get ones with pictures. They don't require as much social thinking as a whole book.

 

Timberdoodle Co - Homeschool Curriculum, Homeschool Resources, Materials & Books These are what Timberdoodle is selling right now. Amazon has more. One we really really liked is hard to get now so too expensive. But search around.

 

You can do puzzles. 

 

I will tell you the sleeper right now for my ds is the Modern Rhymes book about Ancient Egypt. When I got that book for my dd (it was recommended by VP), we HATED it. Like oh my, it was horrible! But she was a different child. Here he is the same age or even older, and he eats it up! The same child who wouldn't sit for ANYTHING 8 months ago last night sat and listened to most of the book and laughed and interacted. We're having a good time pondering when things happened, and I think we're going to build a ziggurat tomorrow.

 

It will come. He just wasn't ready at age 7.

Edited January 17, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I keep all our toys in bins by type. So the lightbright is in a laundry basket with all the pegs. Playdough in a bin, playmobile in a bin, hexbugs in a bin, etc. Then, when I have a worker come in, he gets to pick the bin he wants and take it into his office and put it in the play area. That way he's motivated and knows that when he complies he'll get something he wants! And since we want our kids to be able to play with other kids, play is a really high priority! I beg my workers to play with him. He gets a lot of play! He works, but lots of play. Games, reward play, bin play, you name it. As much as we can stuff in.

 

You can do some cool stuff with puppets if you want. We made some with clothespin figures and felt and used them to work through a picture book. That worked well for him. Sequencing to retell the story was hard, so the figures helped. So, again, that's another strategy for making your read alouds work. Keep it simple, in-reach, and make manipulatives for them to use.

Edited January 17, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I want to reiterate what I think Story is saying. As a newbie homeschooler, it's very hard to look at your KIDS and not the books or the experts. You are going to have to set the advice aside, the experts and the books, and just look at your kids. Unfortunately, homeschooling with autism can be a very crunchy, unfun task. A lot of people go really crazy with the behaviors, the sense that they ought to be able to get things under control, that the dc is being bad, that things are volitional. 

 

Personally, I don't hang on K-8 much anymore. It's just not a health place for me, because I don't need to be going why can't my ds do things, kwim? All I need to ask is WHAT IS HIS NEXT STEP. That's what I have to do. And what I try to do is surround myself with people who challenge me on that. By having a team help me in my home, I get a break, and I get *perspective* on what he could be ready for next. That helps! But it's true, our state has a disability scholarship that makes that possible.

 

In a way, it's so fundamental, so obvious, it's just like homeschooling any other child. You're always supposed to sit down and make a list of goals for the semester or year and make some overarching goals for your family. That's just good practice, and it still works well with these kids! It's just the reality check of making those goals, once you add in autism, makes for goals that are pretty non-traditional. Like we might have a goal that he care that we have feelings. And we might make lots of things (our read-aloud choices, our play choices, etc.), all knowing that we're working them toward this important social thinking goal.

 

And really, for my ds, the goal for the last while has been compliance. Again, everything is going through the prism of how it helps us develop a habit and positive dynamic of compliance. Lately I've been adding some goals for structure and communication. I have life skills goals (the ability to make a snack, the ability to do and put away laundry). Sometimes you fail at goals! I've been trying to help him learn important phone numbers for safety, and I've failed. It's ok to reassess goals!

 

What I *wouldn't* have, just me personally, is content goals. That's really what Story was saying. If you make *content* your goal right now, well it wouldn't have been the biggest goal for my ds at this age/stage. So you can just think it through, what your goals are, then create set-ups and lists of activities that nurture those goals.

[Storygirl]

Yes, pare things down to the basics and don't feel like you have to follow a designated path. Math, reading. Make the rest fun and interesting and don't worry about meeting someone else's goals. Follow the interests of your children.

 

If using literature as part of your homeschool is really important to you (it was to me, and it sounds that way for you), start small. Start fun. Start with just enjoying picture books. Read a poem at breakfast. 

 

In addition to Literature Pockets, we loved https://www.amazon.com/Teaching-Favorite-Arnold-Lobel-Setting/dp/0439294614/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1484681411&sr=8-2&keywords=teaching+with+arnold+lobel 

 

These things can help you bring the fun of literature into your homeschool while keeping lessons short and using picture books and easy readers. So you can bypss the need for them to sit and listen to a lengthy readaloud right now.

 

I think Elizabeth is offering you some good ideas about how to deal with behavior if that is an issue. I was able to work with my kids using these kind of resources if I kept the sessions short and fun, but you may need to seek therapy options to address the ASD. 

[tdbates78]

Thank you all so very much for all of the responses and suggestions. I greatly appreciate it and know that I'm making notes and researching the suggestions!

 

A little about my little ASD daughter. She does receive speech therapy. She was receiving EC behavioral therapy in PS. Her ASD is listed as "mild" per her developmental pediatrician. She does not have a learning disability however she is quite stubborn and just does not "go with the flow" easily. If she isn't interested, she flat out isn't interested. Makes learning difficult! She also needs a lot of one-on-one attention. She seems to lack self-confidence and won't do much independent work because she needs me there patting her on the back and whispering good job for her to want to continue.

 

Being read to is something neither of my daughters have been interested in. One of my twins is  typically developing and she too has a complete lack of interest.

 

Today, while at Target, I asked them to pick out a book and they picked out one of the Magic Treehouse books. It's a start! I started Little House in the Big Woods this morning and then asked and both would rather I read it to them at night before bed so that's what we did. I stopped periodically in the chapter to show them the little pictures and ask questions. They didn't whine but didn't seem to be paying attention either. I'm hoping that adding some fun printouts to coincide with the book will get them excited. If not, I will give it a few more days and then try the Magic Treehouse book. My ASD DD is obsessed with Rapunzel (the Disney-fied version) and I think we own just about every Rapunzel-related book and object! :)

 

As for SOTW, I now feel better about shelving it for awhile. I think that, as a first time homeschooling parent, I am just overly paranoid that I'm missing something or that I am not giving them a well-rounded education. I'm sure my self-confidence will grow once I get more comfortable in my new role. My DD with ASD definitely prefers colorful workbooks so that's mostly what we use. Math Mammoth and Explode the Code are going pretty well along with those workbooks (Spelling, Writing and Language Arts), and they do enjoy reading to us daily although they both have struggled with comprehension so that is something we are working on. We go to the library weekly so I let them pick out their readers.

 

I love the Well-Trained Mind and yes, it is difficult to not want to jump right in and do every suggestion right now! But I need to focus on what works for my girls and do away with the perfect homeschooling fantasy! ;)

 

Tracy