flmom Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Seeing the other thread related to a current 9th grader who will possibly be a STEM kid made me wonder if my plan for high school (starting 9th this fall) is good enough. I do have some limitations in that we use an umbrella school and must follow their requirements as far as # of credit hours in major subjects, electives, etc. My child in question wants a career with animals (zookeeper or such). He will most likely have to major in biology in college as there is only one college in our state that offers a true zoology degree and he honestly does not seem interested in that school. My current plans..... 9th Grade - English 1 Honors (1 credit) - Algebra 1 Honors (1 credit) - Biology 1 Honors (1 credit) - Self-Defense Activities (martial arts/taekwon-do) (1/2 credit) - World Cultural Geography (1 credit) - Semantics and Logis (1/2 credit) - Drawing 1 (1 credit) - Health & Nutrition (1/2 credit) - Voluntary Public Service (1/2 credit) 10th Grade - English 2 Honors (1 credit) - Geometry (Honors?) (1 credit) - Chemistry 1 Honors (1 credit) - World History (Honors?) (1 credit) - Spanish 1 (1 credit) - Speech (1/2 credit) - Personal Finance (1/2 credit) 11th Grade - English 3 Honors (1 credit) - Algebra 2 (Honors?) (1 credit) - Physics (1 credit) - U.S. History (Honors?) (1 credit) - Spanish 2 (1 credit) - Music Appreciation (1 credit) 12th Grade - English 4 Honors (1 credit) - Pre-Calculus (1 credit) - U.S. Govt. (1/2 credit) - Anatomy & Physiology (1 credit) - Introduction to the Bible (1 credit) - Psychology 1 (1/2 credit) - Economics (1/2 credit) I know he probably seems "behind" in his math courses to most, but I am old school in my thoughts that Algebra 1 should be 9th grade. I personally know kids in the public school system who have been placed in Algebra 1 in 8th grade and Geometry in 9th grade and they are all doing poorly in the classes (C's and D's). We're currently doing pre-algebra this year in 8th grade and the concepts are really starting to click for my son. I don't regret that he is "behind" as to how things are now done. I'd rather him grasp and master than shove him through allowing him to do poorly. For extracurriculuars he will continue on with taekwon-do and is on track to hopefully test for his 1st dan (1st degree black belt at the end of 9th grade) and then his 2nd dan (2nd degree black belt) at the end of 11th grade. He already logs many volunteer hours between 2 volunteer "jobs" (both animal related - one at a public library with a certified therapy dog reading program for younger kids and one at a local environmental education center in conjunction with a major society that does sea turtle conservation). He intends to continue on with both of these throughout high school and may try to add summer volunteering for our vet's office when he reaches the required age of 16. At this point I don't have intentions to send him for dual enrollment, but am waiting until closer to 11th and 12th grade to make that decision. We do know an adjunct biology professor at our local community college and will be going to sit in on one of her classes soon so my son can get a feel for what a college class is like. I'd appreciate feedback about my above plan. Sometimes I feel the music appreciation and Intro to the Bible (both fulfill part of his required elective credit hours) look out of place. Other times I feel they present a well-rounded student. These are two electives my son specifically told me he'd like to do. Edited to Add ... I do have several honors courses listed and intended because he will be doing a higher level/quality of work AND one of the colleges he has expressed an interest in attending does weight grades in consideration for acceptance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I would not give academic credit for "volunteer public service" - if the student receives a compensation in the form of a credit, it is not truly volunteer work. I would save this as an extracurricular. Are you planning only two years of foreign language? I do not put much stock in an "honors" designation, and many college do not either. Are you really sure the school you are considering will give a higher weight to homeschool courses that have an "Honors" label? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 He's not "behind" in math in terms of a biology major. Biology majors are not required to take math beyond Calc 1 usually though there are degrees heavy in biochemistry that require a bit more math. If he were going into physics or chemistry, I'd be concerned because frankly, I like to see a dry run at Calc 1 in high school and then unless the student really breezed through it and blossomed, Calc 1 again first semester of the freshman year just to cement the concepts. I'm kind of old fashioned about not skipping calc 1 in college for most kids who've already taken calc in high school because I've seen students struggle with the faster paced style of learning in college when they hit calc 2 and end up dropping their majors despite being good mathematicians and bright students. It kind of shakes them up to cover the ground that quickly. So, I wouldn't be that concered about pre-calc for the senior year for a biology major, but I would consider doing some self-study work on Calc 1 during the summer between high school and college if your student will be required to take calc 1 his first semester of school. Again, this is going to vary a bit between institutions. So, you'll need to take a look at catalogs for the colleges he's interested in attending. Generally speaking, I do not recommend credit for martial arts or other sports. Sports are considered extra-curriculars and are listed on the application, not in the transcript. In most MIchigan schools anyway, sports participation in the PS is not awarded credit because of the lack of academic component and the competitive nature which means many students spend a lot of time on the sidelines and each sport only plays for a certain number of weeks and even with practices, doesn't meet five times per week. PE, which does meet five days per week and is supposed to follow a formal instructional program - debatable that it actually does, but that's a topic for a different thread - is given credit and I think that most schools limit it to one year. If music appreciation follows an actual syllabus with a well-defined curriculum, it should be okay since many schools now offer an "Intro to Fine Arts" credit for non-fine arts oriented students that are college bound and will not participate in regular music or art classes. One school in our county uses the same text as a the closest university does for "Intro to Fine Arts". However, if "music appreciation" does not include introduction to formal singing or an instrument, nor does it include music theory and music history but mostly listening and being exposed to classical music and other musical styles, it is not meaty enough to award credit. If your student is headed to a state school, leave Intro to Bible off. They will consider it padding the transcript. Technically speaking, outside of the study of religion within the context of history, they consider Bible study to be a private matter at the adolescent level even if that same secular university offers religion courses themselves. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 My advice to you, especially if your student may be interested in a school that is even slightly competitve, is to make sure you have outside verification of your student's abilities. If you are not planning on dual enrollment, it might be a good idea to have your student prep for and take SAT II exams in science and math. Then, when your transcript says "honors" and your student has a strong SAT II score, the colleges will trust your grading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmom Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 I would not give academic credit for "volunteer public service" - if the student receives a compensation in the form of a credit, it is not truly volunteer work. I would save this as an extracurricular. Because I use an umbrella school, I can use any course listed on the DOE website. This is one of those courses, and seminars I have attended in my state actually encourage students to take this credit. Are you planning only two years of foreign language? Yes. 2 years is what is required by my umbrella school and 2 years is what is listed as a requirement on every college website we've checked. I do not put much stock in an "honors" designation, and many college do not either. Are you really sure the school you are considering will give a higher weight to homeschool courses that have an "Honors" label? Yes, I really am sure. I am quite capable of reading a college's website and clearly understanding the information they have posted. One particular college in which he has high on his list states they do weight grades and give preference to those students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Yes, I really am sure. I am quite capable of reading a college's website and clearly understanding the information they have posted. One particular college in which he has high on his list states they do weight grades and give preference to those students. I did not doubt your ability to read and am not sure what I have done to deserve your snark. It is quite common for colleges to apply different criteria to homeschooled students and not take an honors designation through a parent as seriously as the Honors track of a school that offers different level courses. It is wonderful that the college you have selected does this, but by no means a given. Often what is listed on a college website is not applied the same way to homeschooled students (prime example are the schools who proudly announce they don't want to see xyz tests... until one finds that this did not apply to homeschoolers) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmom Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 Generally speaking, I do not recommend credit for martial arts or other sports. Sports are considered extra-curriculars and are listed on the application, not in the transcript. In most MIchigan schools anyway, sports participation in the PS is not awarded credit because of the lack of academic component and the competitive nature which means many students spend a lot of time on the sidelines and each sport only plays for a certain number of weeks and even with practices, doesn't meet five times per week. PE, which does meet five days per week and is supposed to follow a formal instructional program - debatable that it actually does, but that's a topic for a different thread - is given credit and I think that most schools limit it to one year. 1/2 credit for P.E. and 1/2 credit for health is required by my state as well as my umbrella school. Both are also a requirement for a state scholarship for which he will be applying. If music appreciation follows an actual syllabus with a well-defined curriculum, it should be okay since many schools now offer an "Intro to Fine Arts" credit for non-fine arts oriented students that are college bound and will not participate in regular music or art classes. One school in our county uses the same text as a the closest university does for "Intro to Fine Arts". However, if "music appreciation" does not include introduction to formal singing or an instrument, nor does it include music theory and music history but mostly listening and being exposed to classical music and other musical styles, it is not meaty enough to award credit. I will be creating my own syllabus and following the guidelines provided on the DOE website for my state. It is doubtful it will include formal singing or an instrument because lessons here are not affordable. Neither of those things is a requirement on the DOE site. I have found several syllabi online that offer a wide range of topics and studies that I intend to use as a starting point. If your student is headed to a state school, leave Intro to Bible off. They will consider it padding the transcript. Technically speaking, outside of the study of religion within the context of history, they consider Bible study to be a private matter at the adolescent level even if that same secular university offers religion courses themselves. This would be one of his required electives, so there is no option of leaving it off. His umbrella school is considered a "private" school and it is a Christian school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmom Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 I did not doubt your ability to read and am not sure what I have done to deserve your snark. It is quite common for colleges to apply different criteria to homeschooled students and not take an honors designation through a parent as seriously as the Honors track of a school that offers different level courses. It is wonderful that the college you have selected does this, but by no means a given. Sorry if I came across as snarky, but quite frankly you sort of did as well in questioning me if I was really sure. His transcript and diploma will be from a "private" school (the umbrella school, which is a legal homeschooling option in my state - interestingly, anyone choosing this option is NOT considered a homeschooler in the eyes of the state). I am unsure if his transcript will be viewed by colleges as being one of a homeschooled student or not. I am in the process of getting this clarified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 A very general comment: Nobody doubts that what you have planned is in line with your DOE recommendations and acceptable as a high school course. But we are looking at your coursework with an eye towards college admissions and transcript - and that is an entirely different ball game. Just because a course is accepted by the DOE for high school in a certain form does not mean it is advisable to have on the college application transcript. These are two very different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmom Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 12th grade is light, with 5.5 credits. Needs foreign language 3 or something else academic. P.E. is omitted for 10,11,12..is he not going to instructed on other lifetime sports? HIs requirements, per the umbrella school, are 4 credits in English (each is to include a combo of composition, literature, and grammar), 4 credits in Math (algebra 1, geometry, and algebra 2 are required), 3 credits in Science (biology, chemistry OR physics, and one equally rigorous to chem or physics are required), 3 credits in Social Science (U.S. history, world history, U.S. govt., and economics are required), 2 credits in foreign language, 1 credit in Fine Arts, 1 credit in Physical Education (1/2 in P.E. and 1/2 in health are required), 8 credits of Electives (4 must be from core subjects). The plan I have laid out meets all those requirements and they are all right in line with every college website we have checked thusfar. So you are saying the 5.5 credits in 12th grade will be frowned upon by colleges and it would be better to shift things around from other grades to even out the amount of credits each year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmom Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 A very general comment: Nobody doubts that what you have planned is in line with your DOE recommendations and acceptable as a high school course. But we are looking at your coursework with an eye towards college admissions and transcript - and that is an entirely different ball game. Just because a course is accepted by the DOE for high school in a certain form does not mean it is advisable to have on the college application transcript. These are two very different things. Forgive me for even starting this thread. Apparently I am far more stupid and ignorant about all this than I thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Just something else to keep in mind is that although all colleges will have a list of required courses, in reality, many times a student needs to have much more than the "required" courses in order to be competitive enough to actually gain admittance to the college. Also, for what it may be worth, I have been told by more than one admissions officer that homeschoolers are viewed slightly differently than traditionally schooled kids. I have been told that colleges don't put much weight in "homeschooled" grades or course descriptions. The most weight is placed on standardized test scores, the textbooks that were used, and the reading list. YMMV, but I thought I would mention it as you plan out your child's high school years. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Forgive me for even starting this thread. Apparently I am far more stupid and ignorant about all this than I thought. Wish I could email chocolate around. I don't think anyone is implying that you are stupid or ignorant. Several people are sharing their insight as moms who are a couple years ahead of you with experience in college applications as well as what can make for a more successful time at college. I have to remind myself to balance what are minimum requirements against what will make my kids competitive applicants. What is competitive varies a lot from college to college. Some have high acceptance and really do take anyone who meets their requirements. But for other schools the requirements are more of an opening argument. For example the flagship state school for my state is very popular and quite competitive. Freshmen have an average of 4-5 AP courses under their belt when entering. I need to be eyes wide open about the level of competition there. On the other hand there are state schools that are much more open. I think what folks are saying is that you need to be canny and know which is which for the schools under consideration. As was mentioned in another thread there is a question raised if it seems that a student is doing less challenging work as a senior rather than more challenging. With the seminars and recommendations I can only say that I've found it helps to ask a lot of follow up questions. How current is the info? What schools does it pertain to? Were there other considerations like sports, music performance ability (oboe vs violin), ethnic or economic background? Sometimes I've been in workshops where the speakers' recommendations would have not been a good suggestion for my alma mater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen in NY Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Treading very lightly, carrying chocolate... It seems as though you and your son have your heart set on one school with a particular set of requirements. That is fantastic. Honestly, it's amazing that he has any idea at all what he wants to do for the rest of his life, let alone what college he wants to attend! (Maybe he can career counsel my sophomore, who has no idea?) But..... 4 years is a long way off. Speaking purely from my own (very limited) experience, my oldest child had her sights set on one school for the first two years of high school. It was her place! She couldn't wait to go! She did all sorts of stuff there.... attended lectures, workshops, robotics stuff.... camp counselor.... oh, the love! I love it there, too. I couldn't have been happier. She studied. She took good classes. She got an internship. She met people. Lots of people... going to lots of schools. Schools that now seemed much more interesting than the one she had originally fallen in love with...... and then she wanted to look around. Junior year. I'll just say - senior year she's still taking Spanish, because she needs three years for the school to which she ended up being accepted as opposed to the two she needed for the other school. :) Just something to consider .... what is the college flavor of the day may change, and with it, the admission requirements. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 One thing I have to keep reminding myself of as I consider what to include on a transcript--what should go where on a college application? For example, would it be better count my dd's swim team time as a PE credit or have it listed as an extracurricular activity? Since we have no reporting requirement for PE we have chosen to leave it as a sport/extra curricular. Sure, given how hard she works and her personal level of achievement I'd be comfortable giving her a good grade and thereby increase her GPA but that is not what will make her competative for university admissions in our home state-what she needs is a sport. Also, I don't think I could, in good conscience, sign a transcript that uses her sport as both an extra curricular and a class during the same school year. One other observation, having the largest course load in 9th grade may not be beneficial. I found with my 9th grader that the transition to high school and the difficulty, level of expectation, pressure to get good grades, quantity of material covered, etc. has been more difficult that I (or she) had expected. Depending on the abilities and personality of the student, I might be inclined to spread a few of those course out over all four years or even complete something like health as a summer school option if you want more time free in later years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmom Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 For example, would it be better count my dd's swim team time as a PE credit or have it listed as an extracurricular activity? Since we have no reporting requirement for PE we have chosen to leave it as a sport/extra curricular. Sure, given how hard she works and her personal level of achievement I'd be comfortable giving her a good grade and thereby increase her GPA but that is not what will make her competative for university admissions in our home state-what she needs is a sport. Also, I don't think I could, in good conscience, sign a transcript that uses her sport as both an extra curricular and a class during the same school year. 1/2 P.E. credit is required by my umbrella school as well as a scholarship for which my child will be applying. Taekwon-do meets that requirement. He has already been a student for a long while and intends to continue for many, many, many years to come. I see no conscience issue with listing anything he does beyond the hours necessary for the 1/2 credit being listed as an extracurriculuar activity, especially with him earning 2 black belts during his high school years (neither will be earned during the time frame that will be counted for the 1/2 required credit) and also possibly becoming a certified instructor while a high schooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmom Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 Going into STEM is not recommended for a student who just wants to do the minimum. Frankly, there are no jobs for those people around here. Employers are looking for go-getters. As it stands, you've got an program set up that will get your child in to a state school. He'll have to do some work if he wants the As, as his competitors will have the AP level course background. I never said he wanted to do the minimum. He knows his career goals. He doesn't even HAVE to go to college as many people in the field he has chosen have landed fantastic jobs simply based upon hands-on experience. He's not out to be a biochemist or molecular biologist. A bachelor's degree or higher would simply put him ahead of the game in his desired field. Again, I'm truly sorry I asked for the advice on here. I feel extremely dissed by so many of the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian (a lady) Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I never said he wanted to do the minimum. He knows his career goals. He doesn't even HAVE to go to college as many people in the field he has chosen have landed fantastic jobs simply based upon hands-on experience. He's not out to be a biochemist or molecular biologist. A bachelor's degree or higher would simply put him ahead of the game in his desired field. Again, I'm truly sorry I asked for the advice on here. I feel extremely dissed by so many of the responses. I'm honestly puzzled by your reaction to the feedback. No one has called you names or said that your son is setting himself up for failure. And of course, they can only respond to the information provided. If you say that he is headed into a biology degree and others (with kids who have earned or are currently earning science degrees) share their experiences, you will get feedback based on that information. Of course it is up to you to determine how much the feedback applies to your circumstances. That is what we all do. I just don't see that there is disrespect demonstrated or implied by other posters giving you their points of view. This is not to say that their points of view are right and yours is wrong. But it seems odd (to me) that you ask for opinions and then debate the opinions as not nice just because they differ from your plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa B Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I think your schedule looks fine for a FL state uni. I think the issue came up when you listed your son as a STEM student. On this site, that has people thinking engineering schools and such. But most BA Biology degrees (including the UF Zoology degree) are given through the College of Liberal Arts and not the more competitive math/science schools within the state universities. However, getting into the state schools here is becoming more difficult. The most important things to focus on are your son's GPA and ACT/SAT scores. Last year's stats were just posted and a 4.0 has become almost a necessity. UF just released their acceptances for this year earlier this week and the stats look to be similar this year. A down economy and the Bright Futures scholarships are definitely upping the transcript requirements. From what I have heard locally, solid extra-curriculars and lots of volunteer hours seem to be determining factors more so than added AP classes (for general admittance.) As to your schedule, I would drop one of the electives from 9th grade down to 12th grade to give a full 6 credits and if you are taking Driver's Ed add it to 9th grade. It is almost a requirement in FL and on nearly every transcript so it won't look like a filler class if added to a 9th or 10th grade year. (If you aren't taking driver's ed, just disregard :) ) Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Please, please don't feel you are being dissed. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding. I think you believe that "minimal" as it's used in the STEM context means remedial or unchallenging or substandard. That is not what anyone here means. You are giving your kid a great education and it's not a remedial effort, It's just that entrance to mathematics and science departments at tier 1 uni's is very different from admission to the university itself. What you have listed is absolutely fine for admission to many great colleges and uni's. However, those same institutions that will issue happy acceptance letters, may also deny admission to the intended major itself. Departments are allowed to have additional criteria above the normal admission requirements for the university. Due to falling enrollments in STEM majors by American students through the 90's and early 2000's, colleges were really in the hotseat with business and government to provide trained workers for an ever growing technogically advanced society. They couldn't fill their seats. American kids had been trained through the PS that math is hard, science is boring, those kinds of jobs are for the rare, geniuses, the uncool kids, the nerds that everyone dissed in high school. Frankly, the loss of applicants to STEM departments came from a culture against being good at math or loving science. So, uni's began filling their seats with students from other nations. Asian children are pushed very hard in math and science and in some cases so hard that it's abusive. Ask my dh about the three men he works with from India whose parents BEAT THEM, seriously injured them, for daring to bring home less than a perfect A in math. In societal systems in which students are pressured to go into high earning fields to bring honor to the parents (this was alluded to in the book Tiger Mom) and where success is narrowly defined and failing to meet that definition brings major retribution, then if that if seats are open in these majors and the parents can drum up the money to pay the bill, they'll be filled with foreign students because these kids have been ridden like work horses to go into these majors. They've also come from countries in which the math and science education has SOOOOOOOOOOO outshone that of the US public education system and this naturally raises the bar. US kids have to do better, they have to dig down and take the toughest courses, and they have to be willing to show that drive to success in order to gain admission to the major. Believe me, colleges want to offer these majors to US citizens. They are under great pressure to do so. However, the reality is, US kids have to be able to keep up with the kids from Singapore, China, Germany, Finland, etc. No one here is suggesting that your son's education is sub-par. It's not. I'm sure you are a very conscientious, homeschooling parent who has wanted him to be successful and who has challenged him well. It's just that this isn't enough for someone who maybe wants to major in physics, or chemistry, or molecular biology, or engineering. There is more that will need to be accomplished in order to adopt those types of paths. Let me help you put it into perspective. I didn't take high school Calculus. Not because I wasn't capable, but because I couldn't take it and the music theory class from the uni...my school offered only one hour of calc because so few students wanted to take it, and that hour coincided with the one professor willing to take a 16 year old into his music theory class with college music majors. I planned on majoring in piano performance. Which was better suited to gaining admission to my major? Which was going to gain the eye of the head of the department? Music theory. The school of music at the LAC I hoped to attend could not have cared one fig whether or not I had calculus. Since Algebra 2 was the admission minimum and I'd exceeded that with trig, I wasn't in danger of being out of the running for scholarships. Sacrificing music theory for calc, would have most definitely caused me to lose out on music scholarships. The competition in piano performance is BRUTAL! I was up against some Asian students whose parents had allowed them to practically coast through high school in order to practice eight hours a day. It wasn't going to be easy to outshine them when audition time came. As it was, the four hours a day I put in at the piano was hard enough to carve out without calculus homework. So, I made a choice and it paid off because of what I wanted to major in. We all have to make those kinds of choices and it's really difficult because kids can so often change their mind and want to do something completely different at the last minute. Sigh....but, we poor parents get stuck in that "up a crick without a paddle" position and have to deal with it. So, please, don't believe that everyone was is dissing you as if you plan is to undereducate your child. That's not it. What you have described is not remedial, not paltry, not insulting, not underserving your student. It's just that paths have to be tweaked in order to achieve this, that, or the other thing. The tweaking that needs to happen for STEM kids is to usually let a little rigor go in the humanities (not enough to hurt them, just not necessarily totally WTM thorough from top to bottom) in order to pursue higher level math and sciences, specialize in some science, take an AP exam or two, and enter a science fair, or a math olympiad, or whatever...something that shows achievement in that area. However, it's entirely possible to enter college without declaring a STEM major, enroll in some prerequisite math and science courses, and then see how that goes. It's not the worst thing in the world for a kid to choose to get their feet wet first and decide if that is the way to go before committing to it. It most certainly happens! The difference is that sometimes it means the expense of a 5th year or not getting departmental scholarships. Again, there is also the difference between tier 1 uni's and LAC's (top 200 in each of those categories), tippy-top tier 1's (top 50 - 60 in each category) and regional uni's and LAC's or unranked schools. You can look these up in the Fiske Guide (highly recommend as a place to begin research), US News and World Report College Rankings, and College Confidential. These will give you an idea how selective the insitution is and you can often get tips (particularly College Confidential) on what the additional hoops will be that must be jumped to get into major A, B, or C. Faith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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