History credits? Credits before high school?

[Evergreen Academy]

Our oldest homeschooler will be starting high schol next year, and I am a bit perplexed about how to count credits. We've been doing four-year history rotations, and just finished Ancients again, during his 8th grade year. I plan to do the MA and R&R time period next year, followed by two years bringing us to the present, and the required govmt and economics courses. However, I am thinking he's supposed to have two years of world history and two of American, and I'm not sure how that will work out with what we've already done. In addition, he's taken high school level classes this year and I'm not sure how those might count - or not.

 

He's declared an 8th grader, but this year is completing Algebra 2 and Apologia Biology (Physical Science and Algebra 1 completed in 7th grade). He completed a 9th grade LL course and had a reading load for history and lit worthy of HS.

 

So my questions are, can any of these courses count? Is he required to complete two full years of world history in high school, and two years of American? I'd love to hear how people worked these things out as I try to make a comprehensive plan for the next four years (I'd thought I had one!).

Thank you for any insight!

[Ellie]

Our oldest homeschooler will be starting high schol next year, and I am a bit perplexed about how to count credits. We've been doing four-year history rotations, and just finished Ancients again, during his 8th grade year. I plan to do the MA and R&R time period next year, followed by two years bringing us to the present, and the required govmt and economics courses. However, I am thinking he's supposed to have two years of world history and two of American, and I'm not sure how that will work out with what we've already done. In addition, he's taken high school level classes this year and I'm not sure how those might count - or not.

 

He's declared an 8th grader, but this year is completing Algebra 2 and Apologia Biology (Physical Science and Algebra 1 completed in 7th grade). He completed a 9th grade LL course and had a reading load for history and lit worthy of HS.

 

So my questions are, can any of these courses count? Is he required to complete two full years of world history in high school, and two years of American? I'd love to hear how people worked these things out as I try to make a comprehensive plan for the next four years (I'd thought I had one!).

Thank you for any insight!

In general, if you're thinking about future college applications, you probably cannot include those classes on a transcript for high school credit. There are always exceptions, of course, but that's the *general* rule. Several have reported here that colleges specified that high school credits must have been completed in the immediate four years preceding the college application.

 

In general (which is my way of covering myself, lol), the high school history sequence is world geography, world history, U.S. history, American government and economics.

 

This is what NY regs say about high school:

United States and New York history and constitutions; (grades 9 through 12): 4 credits English, 4 credits of social studies—including American history, participation in government, and economics—2 credits of math, 2 credits of science, 1 credit of art or music, .5 credit of health, 2 credits of physical education, and 3 credits of electives.

[Evergreen Academy]

Thanks so much, Ellie, and yes, that's what I thought about counting the credits, though someone recently told me otherwise. So, with where this boy is in the history cycle and academics, how might you think to meet those requirements and keep him on track with his history studies? Do we need to redo some world history even though we've just done ancients?

[Lori D.]

Our oldest homeschooler will be starting high schol next year, and I am a bit perplexed about how to count credits... He's declared an 8th grader, but this year is completing Algebra 2 and Apologia Biology (Physical Science and Algebra 1 completed in 7th grade). He completed a 9th grade LL course and had a reading load for history and lit worthy of HS.

 

First, it sounds like your DS is already working across the board at a high school level, and that his 8th grade classes have really been 9th grade classes. I'd suggest you officially call this year 9th grade and just keep moving forward. That would certainly resolve the problem of how to count the credit on his transcript -- you listed 4 credits that are all at a high school level.

 

So if you call this 8th grade year grade 9, here's what you have:

 

grade 8

- Algebra 1* (from 7th grade, which you could now call 8th grade) ... * = high school credit included in transcript, grade not included in GPA)

- (I would skip counting Physical Science from the 7th grade, which you could now call 8th grade)

 

grade 9

1 credit = English (through LL and the History/Lit)

1 credit = Math: Algebra 2

1 credit = Science: Biology

1 credit = History: Ancient World

(and perhaps whatever else DS did this year, if not at high school level, could be counted at least as 0.5 credit?)

 

 

In answer to your general question about what 8th grade classes can be counted as high school work:

 

Typically the only credits "brought up" from middle school onto a high school transcript are math, science and foreign languages. They must be true high school level in difficulty and volume of work. These credits are listed on the transcript, but are marked as having been completed prior to high school -- and the grades from these classes are NOT included in the overall high school transcript GPA.

 

The student would then continue to move forward in progression -- for example, if Biology was done in 8th grade, and 4 sciences are required for high school graduation, the student would then go on and do something like: Chemistry, Physics, Advanced Biology, Advanced Chemistry for the 4 required high school credits, and would have a total of 5 high school-worthy science credits on the transcript, but with the 4 credits actually completed in high school counting towards the GPA.

 

Similarly for Math or Foreign Language, you list the 8th grade course as high school credit but don't include the grade in the GPA, and keep moving forward in the progression to complete the number of required courses during the high school years. The upshot is that students who complete high school credits in grade 8 end up with extra credits on the transcript and take higher levels of coursework during high school.

 

History/Social Studies courses prior to grade 8, even if the reading level is at a high school level, are NOT included on the high school transcript -- unless the coursework was started in grade 8 and finished in the grade 9 school year.

 

If you decide to not advance your student and call this 8th grade year as 9th grade, then you could include the Biology and Algebra 2 on the transcript as worthy of high school credit, but not include the grades in the GPA; I would not recommend including any other credits on the transcript (the Algebra 1, History, or Literature). And your DS would need to complete the required number of credits for Math (4), English (4), and Social Studies (4 = 2 World History, 1 American History, 1 Economics/Gov't) during the next four years, based on his advanced starting point -- in other words, he will need to do 4 credits of Math that are above Alg. 2 (Geometry could be one of those credits if he has not already done that), and the science credits done in the next 4 years of high school will most likely involve 2 advanced sciences (since Physical Science and Biology have already been done).

 

 

I am thinking he's supposed to have two years of world history and two of American, and I'm not sure how that will work out with what we've already done.

 

First, find out for sure what your state requires. (I've addressed that issue more specifically further down in this post.)

 

Second, how do you count American History credits when using a 4-year World History cycle program? From what I've read of posts on this Board by those who continue with a classical model of 4-year History, but who are required to cover 1-2 years specifically of American History credits: they count the materials in the classical World History program that covers the U.S. towards an American History credit, and add enough materials specifically about American History to bring it up to a full credit (or 2 credits), as needed. (The nice thing is that the U.S. is heavily involved in World History for the 20th century, so not as much material has to be added for that section of history!)

 

 

Back to your question about specific Social Studies credits. It looks like you are in NY state. To put your mind at rest about what NY really requires for Social Studies, and what they expect it to look like, here is what a google search turned up:

 

NY public high school social studies credits and progression:

Grade 9 - Global History I

Grade 10 - Global History II

Grade 11 - U.S. History/Government

Grade 12 - Economics/Government

 

NY public high school learning standards (i.e., topics to cover) in those 4 credits of Social Studies:

- History of the United States and New York

- World History

- Geography

- Economics

- Civics, Citizenship, and Government

 

NY public standard scope and sequence of the topics covered in Social Studies: http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/90F9F33B-8657-4F3B-971D-A37D4B925096/86669/HS_SS_SS_8510final.pdf

 

 

Finally: NY is one of the few states that regulates homeschoolers and diplomas, AND some of the NY public colleges have very specific requirements about whether or not they accept your homeschool diploma. In other words, you have extra hoops to jump through in order to have your homeschooling diploma be accepted by certain NY higher education schools. I know you are looking at starting high school, not college, BUT, you will want to know NOW at the start of high school for planning purposes throughout high school what is accepted credit-wise, and what extra hoops will you have to jump. So definitely talk to some other NY homeschoolers who have homeschool graduates about that, and research what your requirements are.

 

Here are a few past posts on homeschooling in NY / diplomas / and NY public colleges to get you started:

 

New York homeschool for high school questions

Homeschooling in New York

New Yorkers who plan on sending homeschool graduates to a NY university -- help!

 

 

BEST of luck as you enter the high school years again! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Lori D.

[Candid]

Aimmee, I'm in Ellie's camp in terms of being cautious about counting middle school work as high school work. So it seems that what you want to do is first NOW look at both what, if any state regulations you must comply with and with an eye to four years from now, look at what colleges will likely be on this child's list and see what they say.

 

I think you maybe incorrect about the requirement for two years of world history. If you are then you can breathe a sigh of relief and move on with less thought.

 

However, if you need two year's of world history and two year's of American history plus government as a separate fifth course, then you'll need to plan accordingly (although I think this will not be the case).

 

What you'll need to do is add enough world and American history to those two years after Medieval and Renaissance to get a second World History credit without undermining your US history credits. That would mean an extra half course each of those two years. I'd also do the same with Government, I'd do an extra half credit in each year I dealt with US history, studying the evolution of American government, supreme court rulings, etc.

 

I hope you won't find that this is the bar you need to meet as that seems like a lot.

[Candid]

Aimmee, I'm in Ellie's camp in terms of being cautious about counting middle school work as high school work. So it seems that what you want to do is first is RIGHT NOW look at both what, if any, state regulations you must comply with and, with an eye to four years from now, look at what colleges will likely be on this child's list and see what they say.

 

I think you maybe incorrect about the requirement for two years of world history. If you are then you can breathe a sigh of relief and move on with less thought.

 

However, if you need two year's of world history and two year's of American history plus government as a separate fifth course, then you'll need to plan accordingly (although I think this will not be the case).

 

What you'll need to do is add enough world and American history to those two years after Medieval and Renaissance to get a second World History credit without undermining your US history credits. That would mean an extra half course each of those two years. I'd also do the same with Government, I'd do an extra half credit in each year I dealt with US history, studying the evolution of American government, supreme court rulings, etc.

 

I hope you won't find that this is the bar you need to meet as that seems like a lot.

[Evergreen Academy]

Thanks so much, Ellie and Candid. I really appreciate your replies. Ellie, in one of the links you posted, I found this under NYS requirements:

 

For grades 9 through 12: English (four units); social studies (four units), which includes one unit of American history, one-half unit in participation in government, and one- half unit of economics; mathematics (two units); science (two units); art and/or music (one unit); health education (one-half unit); physical education (two units); and three units of electives. The units required herein are cumulative requirements for grades 9 through 12.

So it looks like I may have a bit more leeway in terms of our history course choices.

You know, I came very close this year to declaring him a 9th grader as you suggest, and am still discussing it with him. He's been quite firm in that he'd like to continue as he's going, without skipping forward - partly because he loves his rowing team and doesn't want a year less to row, partly because he has a tight-knit group of friends, and partly because he loves to learn, wants time to work on his music, and says, "what's the rush?" He's seen from his older siblings that plenty awaits and I think he's in no hurry to get there.

So much to consider!

Thanks again for your valuable input.

[Ellie]

Thanks so much, Ellie, and yes, that's what I thought about counting the credits, though someone recently told me otherwise. So, with where this boy is in the history cycle and academics, how might you think to meet those requirements and keep him on track with his history studies? Do we need to redo some world history even though we've just done ancients?

You know, I'm not personally fixed on the history cycle, so I don't really have any suggestions. There just needs to be the required histories on the transcript, and it doesn't matter which year they show up. :-)

 

One thing about credits: If 3 math credits are required, it doesn't necessarily mean algebra 1, algebra 2, etc. If "Algebra 2" is on the transcript for 9th grade, it is assumed that the student has already taken Algebra 1. IOW, it's 3 math credits, algebra and above (which does make it tricky for very mathy children who zoom through those maths before high school...)

[snowbeltmom]

If your son studied high school level history during his middle school years, I would list the course on the high school transcript, but indicate that the topic was studied prior to 9th grade.

 

Based on what I have read from other homeschoolers that have already successfully completed the college application process, I am listing all high school level courses taken before the official start of high school on the transcript. Public schools in my area also do this, so college admissions folks are used to seeing high school level classes taken in middle school on the high school transcript.

 

I am indicating on the transcript which courses were taken prior to the official start of high school, so it will be obvious that I am not trying to pad the transcript, and my kids will continue studying in those subjects during the high school years.

 

Just my 2cents.

[klmama]

FWIW, we did ancients for history and lit in 8th, too. I'm indicating that in a "notes" section of the transcript, so they can see that starting 9th with medieval was a continuation of the plan; however, I'm not including a grade or high school credit for 8th grade work, even though it was high school level. So, my plan for this dc is 9th: Medieval and Renaissance history and lit; 10th: World History and Lit 1600-present; 11th: US History and lit, plus US Government (possibly AP for history and/or govt.); 12th: Economics and British Lit 1600-present. We may or may not add in another history or social studies elective senior year, depending on what seems best then. My plan in doing it this way is to cover the bases the colleges may expect regarding specific courses in world and US history and lit, as well as British lit, while still focusing on chronology to some degree.

 

If you think you should have 2 classes called "world history," just call the medieval/renaissance course "World History: 500-1600," or whatever years you included.

[Evergreen Academy]

More wonderful input, thank you. Klmama, do you have a curriculum or materials you plan to use for the 10th grade year of World History and Lit 1600-present, or will you put this together yourself?

Thank you all, I'm gaining confidence reading your responses.

[Evergreen Academy]

More wonderful input, thank you. Klmama, do you have a curriculum or materials you plan to use for the 10th grade year of World History and Lit 1600-present, or will you put this together yourself?

Thank you all, I'm gaining confidence reading your responses.

[klmama]

More wonderful input, thank you. Klmama, do you have a curriculum or materials you plan to use for the 10th grade year of World History and Lit 1600-present, or will you put this together yourself?

Thank you all, I'm gaining confidence reading your responses.

 

I'm putting it together myself. For history, we'll use Spielvogel as a spine, plus some readings from WTM and probably some others from TOG and other curriculum lists. For lit, I'm just going over world literature lists from different curriculum providers and from school websites to pick the ones I want to use. Also, some kind folks here shared their dc's 1600-2000 favorites a few weeks ago, which has been a big help for me in choosing works for all three years to come. Here's that thread: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=386696

 

ETA: We also use a lot of TC lectures, so looking at the works discussed there is a help. Our library has lots of options, so I don't feel like I have to stick with any one series all the way through.

Edited June 15, 2012 by klmama

[ladykayaker]

You could include a CV with your transcript - on the CV have a section titled: High school classes completed in Middle school - and then list the subjects, the material covered, texts used, and the year .

then go on to High school .. listing grades, subjects, texts, grade etc.

[Lori D.]

I still would recommend not including any high school level courses taken in middle school OTHER than math, science and foreign language. Why those classes look good and are looked for by college admissions on the transcript is that they show the student working at an advanced level early on, and progressing into even more advanced studies:

Spanish I, II, III, IV etc.

Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II, Pre-Calc/Trig, etc.

Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Advanced Biology, Advanced Chemistry, etc.

 

The only way you can show a progression into more advanced studies in the Humanities, Literature, and Arts areas is by taking AP courses, or dual enrollment courses at the local community college or university. So if you are going to include high school level Social Studies classes done in middle school, it would be very important to do some AP level Social Studies classes in high school to show the student continues to do harder and harder work. (For example, do AP American History and AP Government in the last 2 years of high school.)

 

And finally, most people who do a classical History rotation study throughout high school find they have MORE than enough credits to satisfy the Social Studies requirements AND to have enough to count as academic electives, without including Social Studies work done in high school. If you really want to include the high school Social Studies coursework done in grade 8, klmama's idea in her post below of including it in the notes, or ladykayaker's idea in her post below in a curriculum vitae would be a great way to do so without any danger of looking like padding. :)

 

BEST of luck! Warmly, Lori D.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Lori D.

[Lori D.]

I came very close this year to declaring him a 9th grader as you suggest, and am still discussing it with him. He's been quite firm in that he'd like to continue as he's going, without skipping forward

 

 

What a great, mature attitude! And I am never one who pushes for early graduation -- we loved having our DSs around longer (graduated at 19yo, and 18.5yo). ;) This will definitely give you more leeway to go at a more leisurely pace and time to explore those extracurriculars. The only potential issue I see is with the math, as Ellie said above:

 

One thing about credits: If 3 math credits are required, it doesn't necessarily mean algebra 1, algebra 2, etc. If "Algebra 2" is on the transcript for 9th grade, it is assumed that the student has already taken Algebra 1. IOW, it's 3 math credits, algebra and above (which does make it tricky for very mathy children who zoom through those maths before high school...)

 

 

So, you could count the Biology and Algebra 2 from grade 8 on the transcript, and then you'll have to come up with 3 more advanced math classes -- Pre-Calculus/Trig; Calculus; Statistics, for example -- and you may likely be looking at taking one or more of them as dual enrollment at the local community college or university. But that's not a bad kind of hurdle to have to jump! :tongue_smilie:

 

 

BEST of luck in your high school homeschooling adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Lori D.