I was told to come here for help

[jabuford]

My daughter was tested in May of 08. Can anyone here help me figure out how to put the results in terms of helping her in school? She was given a Psychological Evaluation and the tests were

Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children -IV

Woodcock Johnson Tests of Achievement -III Form A

Thanks

Jill

[Ottakee]

Welcome. What concerns do you have with her? Do you have the results/scores of these tests? that would help us out.

[jabuford]

What are the scores you need, I see so many I have

standard score 68% Confidence Interval %ILE GE

[jabuford]

This was done in May of 08 %ILE score GE WJ-III scores Standard Score

 

Broad Reading 35 5.6 94

Letter Word Identification 41 5.9 97

Reading Fluency 34 5.6 94

Passage Comprehension 35 5.1 94

 

Broad Math 16 4.6 85

Calculations 12 4.1 82

Math Fluency 09 3.9 80

Applied Problems 33 5.4 93

 

Broad Written Lang. 21 4.7 88

Spelling 18 4.1 86

Writing Fluency 41 6.1 97

Writing Samples 06 2.8 77

 

 

Recommendations were for her to get more attention in math, which we are using singapore 3a

Also states that she was low in her ability to compose a complex sentence. We just started Rod and Staff 5 in January of 09. Before we were using Growing with Grammar. Let me know if you need more info.

 

WISC - IV

 

VERBAL Comp.

similarities 09

vocabulary 04

comprehension 08

 

WORKING MEMORY

Digit Span 07

Letter-Number Sequencing 09

 

PERCEPTUAL REASONING

Block Design 03

Picture Concepts 06

Matrix Reasoning 11

 

PROCESSING SPEED

Coding 09

Symbol Search 08

 

Let me know if I need to type out the paragraph below these numbers.

Edited January 19, 2009 by jabuford

[jabuford]

I hope you can read it. I had it spaced different. Oh well!!

[AngieW in Texas]

This website explains the subtests of the WJ-III.

http://alpha.fdu.edu/psychology/woodcock_ach_descrip.htm

 

It seems really odd to me that her writing samples score would be so much lower than her writing fluency score.

[EKS]

One thing that is interesting is the 8 point difference between the block design and the matrix reasoning (that's almost 3 standard deviations). My son had only a 4 point difference and it was explained to me that it could indicate a vision problem. Apparently a similar form of intelligence is used for both tests but visual/motor skills are needed for the block design. He did about 9 months of vision therapy and then a year afterwards was tested again and while the matrix reasoning score stayed the same, the block design was 6 points higher. So, one thing you might want to look into is to have her seen by a developmental optometrist and then vision therapy if indicated.

Edited January 19, 2009 by EKS

[Laurie4b]

There is a very unusual pattern of scatter in her WISC scores. The report should address the discrepencies. What does the report say about the vocab score being so low compared to the other two verbal scores and the matrix reasoning being so high compared to the other scores in perceptual reasoning?

 

What grade was your daughter in when she took the tests in May? Was she at the end of 6th grade?

 

Does the report give standard scores in addition to the percentile scores for the Woodcock Johnson? What did the test administrator say was the reason for the low score, compared to fluency, in the writing samples?

 

Those kinds of discrepencies could possibly be explained by attention problems, but the examiner should have addressed them specifically. Understanding discrepencies is the key to figuring out a child's issues so that you can address them.

[jabuford]

Yes she was at the end of 6th grade, 11 years old, when she took the test. Obviously I didn't think to ask those other questions you asked. He does state in the report that there were no diagnosable learning disorders and there was no evidence of any significant attention/concentration or hyperactivity/impulsivity symptoms.

[jabuford]

but again it didn't come out the way I typed it. It is the last score.

[EKS]

Were the tests given by the public school or done in a private setting? Because the schools are known for looking at the full scale IQ and ignoring what the subtest scatter really means. Also, they will say there are no learning disabilities if the FSIQ is not significantly different from the achievement scores. This doesn't mean she doesn't have a learning disability or something that is interfering with her learning. It means that she can't be legally designated by them as having a learning disability. If it was done privately then I would be calling the administrator with questions about the subtest discrepencies. You could even take the report and have it interpreted by another psychologist if you don't get satisfactory answers with the original person.

 

Your daughter is obviously struggling. The first place I would look for answers is in the sensory processing area. I would have her evaluated by a developmental optometrist and an occupational therapist. If you think she has auditory issues then perhaps an auditory processing evaluation would be helpful. A great book on this subject is The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide. There is a lot of good information in there to help you sort out these issues.

[jabuford]

Were the tests given by the public school or done in a private setting? Because the schools are known for looking at the full scale IQ and ignoring what the subtest scatter really means. Also, they will say there are no learning disabilities if the FSIQ is not significantly different from the achievement scores. This doesn't mean she doesn't have a learning disability or something that is interfering with her learning. It means that she can't be legally designated by them as having a learning disability. If it was done privately then I would be calling the administrator with questions about the subtest discrepencies. You could even take the report and have it interpreted by another psychologist if you don't get satisfactory answers with the original person.

 

Your daughter is obviously struggling. The first place I would look for answers is in the sensory processing area. I would have her evaluated by a developmental optometrist and an occupational therapist. If you think she has auditory issues then perhaps an auditory processing evaluation would be helpful. A great book on this subject is The Mislabeled Child by Brock and Fernette Eide. There is a lot of good information in there to help you sort out these issues.

 

 

The test was given by a Psychologist at University of Memphis, she was the only one being tested. I don't think she has auditory issues. She has had vision therapy but never saw any improvement. Then again we didn't get to go very long for financial reasons.

[Laurie4b]

Yes she was at the end of 6th grade, 11 years old, when she took the test. Obviously I didn't think to ask those other questions you asked. He does state in the report that there were no diagnosable learning disorders and there was no evidence of any significant attention/concentration or hyperactivity/impulsivity symptoms.

 

A psychological evaluation should have addressed those issues in the text of the report. It's extremely sloppy work not to have not done so. For instance, the examiner's observations should have been included. That might have told you whether attention issues were suspected as causing the scatter. Additionally, she should have indicated what the scatter in scores could mean. What I would do is to call the examiner and ask the questions. It should have been included in the report that you were issued, and she should spend the time to explain over the phone what she didn't type.

 

As I said, the pattern of scatter is very unusual. I would want to know what the examiner's observations were--did she think your child was paying attention, giving her all, fully understanding the test protocol, etc.

 

I also think that something is "off" with the vocab score on the WISC IV. That would have dramatically lowered her verbal IQ, but I can't see any way that she would have scored what she did in reading with a true vocab score of 4.

 

As for the math as measured by the Woodcock Johnson, what the scores indicated is that her rote math skills (knowledge of math facts, how to add, substract, divide, and multiply) are behind her ability to understand math. (Notice that her applied math is significantly higher than the other categories.) I happen to love Singapore for concept development, but a lot of kids need extra drill with it. I would definitely recommend that for your child. To drill math facts, you can get a program like Quarter Mile math, use a hand held drill game (Math Shark is one. There is another one that I like better, but it doesn't have a memorable name!), or "mad minute" math drills using overteaching. To retain the ability to do the processes of subtraction, division, etc, you might think about combining a program like Rod and Staff with the Singapore.

 

It's possible that your daughter scored low on the writing sample because she used incomplete sentences. Those are scored as a 0. If you want to find out, try these things:

 

1. Ask your daughter to write a good sentence telling why it is dangerous to play with matches.

2. Ask her to write a good sentence telling 3 things she would like to do on a day off from school.

3.Show her a photo of something with 1 person doing something in it. Ask her to write a good sentence telling what is happening in the picture.

 

Those 3 prompts are very similar to the prompts in the Woodcock Johnson. If she doesn't respond with complete sentences, that's very likely the reason for the low score in writing samples. BUT I would still call the examiner and ask her. She should have told you her observations to start with! Argh. (Sorry. I used to administer the Woodcock Johnson and did intepretives of psych testing for parents. It really bugs me that someone would issue a report without those critical things in it. It is not up to you to know what to ask. It is up to the examiner to know what needed explaining.)

 

Anyway, at her age, make sure that she is writing every day. Does she write in complete sentences when she is doing her regular work? Can she write a paragraph with a topic sentence, 3-4 details, and a summing up sentence at the end? Can she write a simple report?

[jabuford]

Writing isn't her strong strength. I blame that partly on me for not really knowing how to teach her. I have used Writing Strands, but I didn't think it taught structure (plot, topic sentence, etc.) Maybe I am wrong. I have tried anything else except what has been taught in the grammar programs I have used (growing with grammar, FLL, now Rod and Staff 5). What are your suggestions for writing from the beginning.

[cillakat]

there was no evidence of any significant attention/concentration or hyperactivity/impulsivity symptoms.

 

Did he have you fill anything out?

 

Clearly, something is up.

 

How is her reading when she reads aloud? What *did* the psychologist say? Since she is struggling, what were his recommendations? What does the report say? (ie the written report, not just the scores) Working memory? Processing speed?

 

:)

k

[jabuford]

Did he have you fill anything out?

 

Clearly, something is up.

 

How is her reading when she reads aloud? What *did* the psychologist say? Since she is struggling, what were his recommendations? What does the report say? (ie the written report, not just the scores) Working memory? Processing speed?

 

:)

k

 

Her reading is slow and tedious. It pains me to hear her read. The psychologist just basically went over the scores and told what they meant. As the same as what the report has done. He wasn't a psychologist who was familiar with homeschooling, so he really didn't help me know how to proceed. The recommendation was to work during the summer (since this was done in May of 08), paying extra attention to mathematics, complex sentence construction. Working memory index score of 88 (21st %/ile) Processing speed index score of 91 (27th %ile).

[cillakat]

In the absence of additional info, I'd start immediately on a back to basics program of sorts - everyday doing math, and language arts.

 

I'd be working with her daily, as much as possible to work on math fact fluency using various games, activities and manipulatives to really cement things.

 

For reading I'd asap start using an orton gillingham based reading intervention program like Wilson. 5 days a week for an hour every day, plus practice reading fluently aloud in addition to that. Even if she 'can' read and 'does' read, the lack of ability to read aloud fluently indicates that there is serious fluency trouble that is likely affecting comprehension.....that trouble only grows over time. Fluent aloud reading is one of the best indicators that comprehension is intact. Without fluency, there is rarely good comprehension (Shaywitz)....without good comprehension, it's impossible to notice, pick up, pick apart and infer meanings on new vocab words. There are various methods you can employ to improve decoding skills (ability to sound out words), fluency (reading fluently and automatically), and comprehension (using imagery, questioning, discussion) and encoding (spelling). One good program is Wilson Language. It addresses all of those components of reading.

 

Writing With Ease is a fabulous resource for teaching writing explicitly and directly in an incremental manageable fashion. Writing is not my strength and teaching it is nearly paralyzing for me. The scriptedness of WWE is just what I need to work on writing with my writing challenged dysgraphic, dyslexic child. While it's not her favorite thing to do, she doesn't mind it terribly as the lesson for each day is quite short. She never has to write more than a couple of sentences in level 2 (she's 9y8m old).

 

Listening to audiobooks of higher level literature every day is helpful on many levels. 1)exposure to higher vocabulary, grammar and sentence structure. 2)ideas that can stretch her thinking....3)holding on to a more complicated narrative thread as you discuss with her can only be a good thing for working memory. It's helpful on all levels. Stopping the recording very frequently affords opportunities to talk about what's happening....sometimes what's occuring in a story is obvious, sometimes only it's only inferred -- kids struggling with working memory issues and comprehension issues may need to have clues pointed out to them and may need to review the story as they go, putting the peices together and holding a mental visual image.....

 

Herein lies my personal struggle: while working hard at remediating deficits/weaknesses, how much time is left for following the individual's interest and working with *strengths*. There isn't enough time in the day (at least in my life;p) and often times, what she loves to do is left by the wayside....at significant cost.

 

What does your daughter like to do? What does she do well? How can that be worked into her day so that she can see herself as a person who is good at a number of things and that her struggles in comparison are small? I don't have an answer....still working on that one:) I think I know how it would look but getting it all done, while dealing with the very critical skills of reading well, writing well (enough) and doing math well in addition to meeting the needs of my other child in school, managing carpools blah blah blah. It's all over complicated and slightly depressing;p so I'll spare you the gory details.....but you get the gist of it.

 

What's your daughter like? Hobbies? Interests? Strengths?

 

Wishing you all the very best,

Katherine

[cillakat]

I have used Writing Strands, but I didn't think it taught structure (plot, topic sentence, etc.)

 

it'll be interesting to see the results of Laurie's recommendations (ie the sentence writing). If her sentences are indeed incomplete, then teaching paragraph formation and plot is too great a jump. WWE workbook 2 might very well be too basic (or not...depending)....workbook 3 isn't out yet. But the WWE textbook has sample lessons for all of the levels three and four (2 weeks worth iirc), then instructions on how to create your own lessons.

 

Consider that just about everything you do with her will be best taught in an incremental *direct*, multi-sensory fashion.....with enough practice and repetition. I'd try to get some visual things in there - ie computer games to reinforce math facts etc to work on skills that otherwise just aren't terribly engaging.

 

:)

K

[cillakat]

GAH! I keep posting with the intent of mentioning Brainware Safari and each and every time, I've forgotten it! How's *my* working memory;p Yeah, I already know it's not fabulous.

 

Anyway, Brainware Safari: worth looking into. It's significantly improved my daughters ability to slow down and pay attention with multistep math problem. Her previous m.o. for attacking a word problem was to throw her pencil, slam her hands on the table, screech this is so stupid. It's so dumb. It's so boring. I already did it. I know how to do this. I just can't do this one. Can we do something else? Well, in all honesty, it still can be her m.o. at times. The improvement is that when she is in the right frame of mind, she can actually set up the Singpore word problems in 3a/3b with no difficulty, draw supporting bar diagrams if need be and worth through them step by step....that was VERY new a few weeks after starting BWS.

 

Just a heads up: it is tough. They're exercising skills that are difficult for them so be prepared for some resistance. Very often, I have to sit right there with dd and be her cheerleader. So worth it though when improvement is seen in the ever important 'working memory' area:p and/or in processing speed etc etc

 

When you look at her WJIII scores (not just the categories of scores, but all of the individual subcategories - ie letter-word identification, reading fluency, passage comprehension, spelling (spelling of sounds and 'spelling'), story recall etc......is there anything that is notably higher or lower than the other scores? anything in each subcategory that stands out as markedly different from the 'broad' scores? you may want to post those (those that stand out) or even post all of them (all of the subcategories) b/c there is clearly more going on.

 

:)

K

[Laurie4b]

Actually, incomplete sentences are often an artifact of the way the writing samples test is set up on the Woodcock Johnson. Sometimes after the test was done, if a child had had a lot of imcomplete sentences, I'd quickly do a follow-up informal assessment and it would be likely that the child could write complete sentences. They were responding to the prompt on the test as if it was an oral response (the prompts are given orally, so that probably contributes). So even though the prompt starts with "write a good sentence that tells ....blah blah blah, they will sometimes ignore the "good sentence" part.