Math: Beckenbach & Dolciani questions

[FrogMom5]

Hi! I'm new to posting here. I've been reading for awhile and have learned so much from all of you. Thanks!

 

Now I need help. My questions are:

 

1. What is the "Introduction to Inequalities" book by Beckenbach and Bellman? Where in the math series do you use it?

 

2. I bought a book called, "Modern School Mathematics Algebra I," with Dolciani, Beckenbach, Jurgensen & Wooten (1967) and the corresponding Teacher's Edition. Did I make a mistake? This is not the "Structure and Methods" book that everyone discusses but is it just as good?

 

I'm not a math whiz and definately need the Teacher's Edition with each book. My son wants to be a math major in college so I'm trying my best to prepare him.

 

Thanks for your help. You all are some of the most intelligent and interesting people I've ever met. It's enjoyable to read the discussions on this board.

 

Thanks.

Denise

[fractalgal]

1. What is the "Introduction to Inequalities" book by Beckenbach and Bellman? Where in the math series do you use it?

 

 

I have worked through Intoduction to Inequalities.

This book -with its more elementary level proofs - gives the reader a taste of what graduate level math is like, yet it is written in way to be understood by a high school math student. It sets the stage for real analysis which is generally taken the senior year of an undergraduate math major or the first year of a graduate school math.

 

Prerequisites would be at a minimum one who has mastered Algebra II and some Geometry. I think having taken the first semester of Calculus would also be helpful, but not necessary. Even with Calculus, parts of this book may still be hard to understand. So it is helpful to be patient.

 

It has answers (or intermediate steps) in the back of the book; but you will still have to think through the logic for the answers to make sense. It introduces mathematical induction in Chapter 2.

 

The book's focus is on inequalities which are very important in mathematics. The first three chapters are on axioms or "tools of the trade", chapter four - derives some of the most used inequalities used in analysis, chapter five - inequalities are used to treat maximization and minimization problems, and finally chapter six focuses on properties of distance.

 

The author clearly enjoys math, and reading this book was delightful.

 

A book like this should not be rushed through, and it would be a good way for your son to see if pure math is really for him. Do all the exercises for the best results.

 

Good luck. :)

[Janice H]

 

2. I bought a book called, "Modern School Mathematics Algebra I," with Dolciani, Beckenbach, Jurgensen & Wooten (1967) and the corresponding Teacher's Edition. Did I make a mistake? This is not the "Structure and Methods" book that everyone discusses but is it just as good?

Others may be able to correct me, but I think the "structure and method" subtitle came in later editions. I have the book you describe and assumed it was one of "THE" 60's edition that purists here favor.

[FrogMom5]

Thank you Janice and Fractagal. Your info. really helps.

 

Denise

[Dee in MI]

I have a 1962 edition/1965 impression called Modern Algebra: Structure and Method, Book 1. Then came Modern School Mathematics Algebra I. Then they changed back to Modern Algebra: Structure and Method. I have a 1970 Algebra I: Structure and Method, Revised Edition.

 

Just to confuse things further, I also have Modern Algebra and Trigonometry: Structure and Method, Book 2 from 1963/1965, Modern School Mathematics: Algebra 2 and Trigonometry (1968/1971) and Modern School Mathematics: Geometry (1969).

 

And, to confuse things further yet, I have books called Modern School Mathematics: Structure and Method 7 and Modern School Mathematics: Structure and Method 8, both from 1967, that are for seventh and eighth grades, basically pre-algebra.

 

It's been tricky to get stuff to match up :) Fortunately, most of them were cheap. And the first three I ordered were teacher's editions, though I only ordered Student Editions.

 

I hope this makes some sense :)

[FrogMom5]

Dee,

 

That is too funny. I saw every one of those titles when I was searching for these math books. It was very confusing!

 

Also, some of the teacher's editions are expensive. Several were about $100. I know that is not a bad price compared to the price of new high school text books, but it's a bit out of my price range right now.

 

Thank you for listing all of your books. I feel more confident in what to look for now.

Denise

[Dee in MI]

If you're buying now, my advice is to start with the student editions, and buy the ones in good shape. They're most likely to be teacher's editions, but the seller doesn't realize it. The marking for teacher's editions is subtle. I figure that if the book is in good shape, it is more likely to have lived it's life in a teacher's desk than in a series of studen lockers! :)

[Storm Bay]

I have a 1962 edition/1965 impression called Modern Algebra: Structure and Method, Book 1. Then came Modern School Mathematics Algebra I. Then they changed back to Modern Algebra: Structure and Method. I have a 1970 Algebra I: Structure and Method, Revised Edition.

 

Just to confuse things further, I also have Modern Algebra and Trigonometry: Structure and Method, Book 2 from 1963/1965, Modern School Mathematics: Algebra 2 and Trigonometry (1968/1971) and Modern School Mathematics: Geometry (1969).

 

And, to confuse things further yet, I have books called Modern School Mathematics: Structure and Method 7 and Modern School Mathematics: Structure and Method 8, both from 1967, that are for seventh and eighth grades, basically pre-algebra.

 

It's been tricky to get stuff to match up :) Fortunately, most of them were cheap. And the first three I ordered were teacher's editions, though I only ordered Student Editions.

 

I hope this makes some sense :)

 

So are you saying that the Modern School Mathematics is just another edition of Structure and Method? Have you compared them inside? We compared the 1965 & 1975 Structure and Methods, and it's easy to see how one came from the other, even though I think they changed the order of some things. It just seems kind of quick for a new edition, kwim?

[Dee in MI]

Basically, yes. The series was called "Course Name": Structure and Method, in the early sixties. Then the whole series was renamed to Modern School Mathematics: "Course Name", in the late sixties. Then it was changed back to "Course Name": Structure and Method, Revised Edition, in the early seventies.

 

During the Modern School Mathematics era, there were the two pre-algebra books, called Modern School Mathematics: Structure and Method 7 and 8. I have these, like them, and plan to use them. The names were later changed to Mathematics: Structure and Method Course 1 and 2. Then, later, came Pre-algebra, an Accelerated Course.

 

I think that Modern Introductory Analysis never changed names. Whether it has changed content, I don't know.

 

The books from the different eras are similar. The order is different. Sometimes chapters have been added, condensed, or split. I haven't analyzed the differences in depth.

 

There was an elementary school series called Modern School Mathematics, Structure and Use. I got the sixth grade book, and it is terrible. Don't bother with these. They are probably what eventually killed "new math".

[Storm Bay]

Basically, yes. The series was called "Course Name": Structure and Method, in the early sixties. Then the whole series was renamed to Modern School Mathematics: "Course Name", in the late sixties. Then it was changed back to "Course Name": Structure and Method, Revised Edition, in the early seventies.

 

During the Modern School Mathematics era, there were the two pre-algebra books, called Modern School Mathematics: Structure and Method 7 and 8. I have these, like them, and plan to use them. The names were later changed to Mathematics: Structure and Method Course 1 and 2. Then, later, came Pre-algebra, an Accelerated Course.

 

I think that Modern Introductory Analysis never changed names. Whether it has changed content, I don't know.

 

The books from the different eras are similar. The order is different. Sometimes chapters have been added, condensed, or split. I haven't analyzed the differences in depth.

 

There was an elementary school series called Modern School Mathematics, Structure and Use. I got the sixth grade book, and it is terrible. Don't bother with these. They are probably what eventually killed "new math".

 

Thanks!

[micjayne]

If you're buying now, my advice is to start with the student editions, and buy the ones in good shape. They're most likely to be teacher's editions, but the seller doesn't realize it. The marking for teacher's editions is subtle. I figure that if the book is in good shape, it is more likely to have lived it's life in a teacher's desk than in a series of studen lockers! :)

 

 

Thank you Dee for the buying advice. Found this 1970's ed:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395131022/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

 

for just 63 cents (seller had detailed notes on light wear) and figured what the hey....

[Storm Bay]

Thank you Dee for the buying advice. Found this 1970's ed:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0395131022/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

 

for just 63 cents (seller had detailed notes on light wear) and figured what the hey....

 

 

Dd did Structure & Method from 1965 and we didn't have any teacher guide. I did, however, eventually find an answer key or solutions manual or whatever it is called. I put it on my Amazon wish list and remembered to check it one day, and there it was. The answer key/solution manual cost more than the text and the cover is more beat up, but it was a great benefit to not only have all the answers (not just the odds, which are in some texts only) but to have the steps just in case dd was struggling and needed a hint (not that she ever likes hints, but there was no way she was going to listen to my way of solving the problems, plus I've forgotten much of my Algebra). Dd likes to learn math ye reading the text, though, so that is a factor I take into consideration.

[micjayne]

Yay! Our 63 cent book finally arrived, and had a minute to thumb through. Pleasantly glad to find it a "brand-new" condition, but it is also one of the Student ed. w/ NO answers in back.

Thanks Karin and every poster's comments for all your helpful responses in the Dolciani threads. Now off to track down a reasonable solutions manual or Teacher's ed....

 

Does anyone have the ASIN numbers for the coveted Teachers Ed. 1964 plus Dolciani's?

I'm not sure if I got the right book since our's is the 1970,1969 edition. Still be put to good use though :D, no complaints for value, looks like a decent text.

[micjayne]

ah, found one in another thread. Thanks Beth for link.

Modern Algebra ASIN: B0007DU4SI

 

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-algebra-Structure-method-Teachers/dp/B0007DU4SI/ref=sr_1_40?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226496220&sr=8-40

 

I usually use http://www.fetchbook.info

to do price search covering sellers from Amazon to AbeBooks etc. Fetchbook however can not do look ups by ASIN, only ISBN. Most of the older Dolciani's can only be tracked by ASIN #.

[Storm Bay]

Yay! Our 63 cent book finally arrived, and had a minute to thumb through. Pleasantly glad to find it a "brand-new" condition, but it is also one of the Student ed. w/ NO answers in back.

Thanks Karin and every poster's comments for all your helpful responses in the Dolciani threads. Now off to track down a reasonable solutions manual or Teacher's ed....

 

Does anyone have the ASIN numbers for the coveted Teachers Ed. 1964 plus Dolciani's?

I'm not sure if I got the right book since our's is the 1970,1969 edition. Still be put to good use though :D, no complaints for value, looks like a decent text.

 

 

Your edition is fine. My understanding from reading threads here and from looking at them is that the books from 1965-1975 are all good. We borrowed the one you have from the library once, and own the 1965 & 1975 ones. My eldest prefers the 1965, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of my other dc chooses the 1975 because it looks so much newer and smells better. My eldest likes that slightly musty smell some older books have. Look for the teacher's edition for the same year, also the solution manual.

[Colleen in NS]

Yay! Our 63 cent book finally arrived, and had a minute to thumb through. Pleasantly glad to find it a "brand-new" condition, but it is also one of the Student ed. w/ NO answers in back.

Thanks Karin and every poster's comments for all your helpful responses in the Dolciani threads. Now off to track down a reasonable solutions manual or Teacher's ed....

 

I usually use http://www.fetchbook.info

to do price search covering sellers from Amazon to AbeBooks etc.

 

Thanks for another useful place to search for these books! I've been hunting for old Dolciani books, too. So far I've found algebra 1, 1962; geometry, 1963; and modern introductory analysis, 1964-67; all student books. I have a supposed 1965 algebra 2 Teacher's Edition book on the way and possibly the student edition (if I can get it sent to Canada).

 

It's strange how some of the books have odd-answers, some have no answers, and some have all the answers! I have one of each so far!

 

But, I think I am finally going to enjoy and understand math with these books. Many thanks to Jane in NC and the others who have talked these up here.

 

I'll be curious to see how your search goes! :D (I love hunting for deals when I decide something is going to be useful to us!)

[micjayne]

My eldest prefers the 1965, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of my other dc chooses the 1975 because it looks so much newer and smells better. My eldest likes that slightly musty smell some older books have. Look for the teacher's edition for the same year, also the solution manual.

 

 

Thanks Karin for confirming this. We are rather fond of older books too :) It seems the search may be more challenging to get a good deal that is for TM Geometry w/ answers. I will keep ya posted. Cheers.

[micjayne]

Hi,

Just wondering if Wooten's "Modern Analytic Geometry" Solution Key will work for my 63 cent book. Ds started after Christmas break and is working too fast for me to keep up without a Solutions key.

I found the Dolciani et al Solution's Key in Alibris and was just notified of cancel refund because no longer available.

 

Here's the link to Wooten's (w/pic).

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0395198097/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=A2966FOX1EWRNK&v=glance

 

What do you all think?

[Beth in Central TX]

No, I don't think it will work. Your Dolciani book is a regular geometry book while the Wooten book is a higher level analytical geometry course. In my experience, the books will work together if they have the same cover art design and color scheme even if the copyright dates are slightly different.

[micjayne]

Thanks Beth. Much obliged.

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned higher level geometry.. Is this high school level still or maybe college?

 

I think some things can be gleaned just studying a solutions manual ...

(sorry mind going off in a tangent and thinking of all those 3rd world inventors {essentially self home-schoolers} I hear about on TED)

 

If the level is not too much higher may possibly purchase just because I am having a real hard time locating a solutions key for ours.

[Jane in NC]

Analytic Geometry was formerly covered in greater depth. When I took Calculus, the course was called "Calculus and Analytic Geometry". We spent weeks on conic sections, it seemed. Fashions change and this is no longer the case.

 

Jane

[Beth in Central TX]

At that time, Analytic Geometry was probably considered a high school level course, but I really don't think the solution manual will be much help for you with the Modern Geometry book. I have the solution manuals for all 4 Dolciani books in the series. The solution key has the solution and answer only, not the question or given facts; therefore, I don't think you will get much out of reading through the solution manual only. If my son is having difficulty with word problems, I can't just pick up the solution guide to help him; I have to read the problem from the book and then work through the solution.

 

Jane--In the 80's I took Alg I, Geometry, Alg II, Trig & Analytic Geometry, and Calculus. That was the standard sequence in the 3 different high schools I attended (my dad is retired Army).

[FrogMom5]

Beth,

 

How did you complete 5 math courses in 4 years of high school? If you doubled up, which classes did you take consecutively?

 

I am curious because Florida requires several credits in a Major Area of Interest (MAI) to graduate high school. My son wants Math to be his MAI but it will require that he take two math classes during one of his high school years. Since math is sequential, I'm wondering how and what to take consecutively.

 

I don't mean to hijack this thread. I've been struggling with this MAI requirement for a few weeks now and your comment caught my interest.

 

Thanks.

Denise

[micjayne]

Thank you Jane and Beth.

Beth your description for the solutions guide was very helpful. It sounds like it will be too difficult for ds at this time (he is in 8th) and a waste of money.

If you ever want to sell your Dolciani books, you have a willing buyer ;)

[micjayne]

Beth,

 

How did you complete 5 math courses in 4 years of high school? If you doubled up, which classes did you take consecutively?

 

I am curious because Florida requires several credits in a Major Area of Interest (MAI) to graduate high school. My son wants Math to be his MAI but it will require that he take two math classes during one of his high school years. Since math is sequential, I'm wondering how and what to take consecutively.

 

I don't mean to hijack this thread. I've been struggling with this MAI requirement for a few weeks now and your comment caught my interest.

 

Thanks.

Denise

 

Hi Denise,

I think I'm the one guilty of hijacking the thread since you started it to begin with.

All the best,

J.

[Mary in NJ]

Thank you Jane and Beth.

Beth your description for the solutions guide was very helpful. It sounds like it will be too difficult for ds at this time (he is in 8th) and a waste of money.

If you ever want to sell your Dolciani books, you have a willing buyer ;)

 

You can find these books, it just requires diligence! I have been at this for 6 weeks and have found most of what I need. There are still a few teacher's editions or solution keys that I need to finish complete years. After all this work, I only have two years complete, and only need three more items to finish the other two years. Of course, during this journey, I have wound up with other editions/publication years that have somehow matched up. So, now I have two complete sets for year 1 and various teacher's editions and student books for other years. Sometimes I return them to the seller, other times, I just bite the bullet and hang on to them. Once I have finished completeing each year, I willl have a couple of complete sets that I will be selling. and various teacher's editions, solution keys and student editions. You are right, this is hard work!

[Beth in Central TX]

Hi Denise--I took Algebra I in 8th grade and received high school credit for it. That was rare when I was in school, but it seems like it's the standard in public school today. In my senior year Calculus class, we only had 4 students, and I was the only girl. Of course, Dept. of Defense schools were not known for their academics, so other public schools may have been offering Algebra I in 8th grade for a long time...but I digress.

[Colleen in NS]

If you ever want to sell your Dolciani books, you have a willing buyer ;)

 

{ahem} "no, ME first!!" (did I just say that????) :D

 

I have been at this for 6 weeks and have found most of what I need. There are still a few teacher's editions or solution keys that I need to finish complete years. After all this work, I only have two years complete, and only need three more items to finish the other two years. Of course, during this journey, I have wound up with other editions/publication years that have somehow matched up. So, now I have two complete sets for year 1 and various teacher's editions and student books for other years. Sometimes I return them to the seller, other times, I just bite the bullet and hang on to them. Once I have finished completeing each year, I willl have a couple of complete sets that I will be selling. and various teacher's editions, solution keys and student editions. You are right, this is hard work!

 

Are you looking for early 1960s versions? If so, where else do you look besides amazon and abebooks???? I have no idea. So far I've managed to find student editions of algebra 1, geometry, and modern into. analysis. I supposedly have a TE of algebra 2 coming in the mail. I keep my searches to 1967 and earlier. But I haven't got a clue of where else to search. And I've never come across a solution manual. And I live in Canada, where it's sometimes harder to get people to ship to.

[Kareni]

How did you complete 5 math courses in 4 years of high school? If you doubled up, which classes did you take consecutively?

 

 

 

My teen also completed five math courses by starting Algebra I in 8th grade. She went on to take:

 

9th grade: Geometry

10th grade: Algebra II

11th grade: Pre-Calculus (specifically College Algebra plus Trigonometry at the community college)

12th grade: AP Statistics (an online class with PA Homeschoolers)

 

I've seen posts from some whose children have done both Algebra II and Geometry in one year; if you go this route it's important to allot double time for math. Also, if your child takes courses at the community college, he/she might be able to squeeze in more years of math (for example, the College Algebra and Trig courses my daughter took were each one quarter long; she did not do math the third quarter of that year).

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Mary in NJ]

{ahem} "no, ME first!!" (did I just say that????) :D

 

 

 

Are you looking for early 1960s versions? If so, where else do you look besides amazon and abebooks???? I have no idea. So far I've managed to find student editions of algebra 1, geometry, and modern into. analysis. I supposedly have a TE of algebra 2 coming in the mail. I keep my searches to 1967 and earlier. But I haven't got a clue of where else to search. And I've never come across a solution manual. And I live in Canada, where it's sometimes harder to get people to ship to.

 

 

Amazon, ABE and various small used book stores are where I have found most of my books. Google "used books" and it will pull up some major internet book places, but also book stores that are local to you. When I googled used books in my area, it brought up a local used book shop that carries old and new textbooks. They are not a store front, but a mail order/internet type of business. I purchased all two of their Dolciani 1960's. I would highly suggest looking locally. They will be able to speak with you directly on the phone and Iwas able to specifically ask them to describe the cover to me before I made a purchase. This insured that I would probably get what I was looking for. Just a quick note, I did see a 1965 Teacher's Edition of Modern Algebra, Structure and Method, Book One on Amazon last night. I think it was around $30 or $40. I don't know who the seller is, but you could email them questions to make sure it is what you need.

 

I have dealt with people who either won't answer questions about their book, OR tell me that the book is exactly what I am looking for. When it arrives, it is an 80's book and not at all what I wanted. The hassle to return these books is enormous. Some book sellers are easier to deal with, others are just a pain in the neck. Amazon is easier to get your money back if there is a problem. The sellers on ABE are going to refund you the purchase price of the book but not the postage. So, if you pay $4.00 for the book and $3.95 for the postage, it will cost you more money to send the book back. Try to deal with Amazon or local book stores if at all possible.

 

I have spent a lot of time looking for these books. I know it took Beth in Central TX almost 6 months to find everything. It could very well take me a year!!!:lol:

 

Once I have everything purchased and the sets together, I will make some notes, ISBN's, ASIN's comparisons, etc., about things I have learned on the way. Until then, Beth has listed a lot of helpful information, and this is what I use to find my books. You may want to read through her post.

 

Best of luck.

[Beth in Central TX]

Well, since my youngest is only 7, I'll be using the Dolciani books for a long time to come. Maybe by that time, I'll be able to work the word problems on my own! I'm very thankful to have the solution keys for this series and a husband that can help out when I'm completely lost.

[Colleen in NS]

Google "used books" and it will pull up some major internet book places, but also book stores that are local to you. When I googled used books in my area, it brought up a local used book shop that carries old and new textbooks. They are not a store front, but a mail order/internet type of business. I purchased all two of their Dolciani 1960's. I would highly suggest looking locally.

 

Thanks for the hints! I will also try locally; it will give me a chance to scout out used bookstores around here. I usually just look at books in thrift stores.

 

Just a quick note, I did see a 1965 Teacher's Edition of Modern Algebra, Structure and Method, Book One on Amazon last night. I think it was around $30 or $40. I don't know who the seller is, but you could email them questions to make sure it is what you need.

 

Thanks! Going to look...

 

I have dealt with people who either won't answer questions about their book, OR tell me that the book is exactly what I am looking for. When it arrives, it is an 80's book and not at all what I wanted. The hassle to return these books is enormous. Some book sellers are easier to deal with, others are just a pain in the neck. Amazon is easier to get your money back if there is a problem. The sellers on ABE are going to refund you the purchase price of the book but not the postage. So, if you pay $4.00 for the book and $3.95 for the postage, it will cost you more money to send the book back. Try to deal with Amazon or local book stores if at all possible.

 

I didn't know that about Abe. That is where I have purchased my books from so far. And yes, I did have one come that wasn't as advertised. The company told me they'd refund me for the book, postage, and return postage. So far they've refunded most of that, but not all. I have to pursue it and it isn't fun.

 

Once I have everything purchased and the sets together, I will make some notes, ISBN's, ASIN's comparisons, etc., about things I have learned on the way.

 

That would be great! When you do, tag your thread with the dolciani tag. Between yours and Beth's experiences, and maybe some others, we could get some good info. for other people searching.

 

Until then, Beth has listed a lot of helpful information, and this is what I use to find my books. You may want to read through her post.

 

She has definitely helped me a lot and that was a great post.

 

Best of luck.

 

.

[Colleen in NS]

throwing this geometry book up for grabs on abebooks. It's a 1963, not a teacher's edition. The geometry books, I have discovered, are harder to find. I already have a student edition, 1963. I called to ask if this was TE, but it's not. HTH someone.

[Storm Bay]

My understanding is that many colleges won't accept Algebra 1 credit from gr 8, but that that doesn't matter. My dd may take 5 math credits, but that would be because we may do a math elective for credit on something like cyphers. However, we're doing math as a semester course (twice as much work per day as if she did math all year, so she's not covering less) so if we do end up doing this, it would be in a different semester than her regular math course. She's a freshman/gr 9 student who is doing Geometry this year and who will do Alg 2 next year.

[FrogMom5]

through. If he takes Geometry with Alg. II we will need to drop at least one other subject. We'll keep writing/lit., science and latin but will have to let other things go.

 

Right now, he is taking Alg. I (Dolciani-he loves it) and sometimes it takes 20-30 min. But sometimes it takes close to 1 1/2 hours. I know as he gets further along, he will need a full 2 hours. For two math classes, that's 4 hours per day.

 

Well, I'll figure this out or make him chose another MAI!

 

Thanks again for your help. I wish many of you lived close by. I would trade making you all dinner or doing chores for help with my son's math!

Denise

 

Oh, micjayne, I forgot I started this thread! It's turned out to be a better conversation so, thank you!:)