Logic courses

[Porridge]

If you did logic with your high school student,  How did you choose from the available options? What were the strengths and weaknesses of the curriculum you used?
 

I know of:

 Socratic Logic (Kreeft) - textbook

 Roman Roads, Intermediate Logic - curriculum with student and teacher books

 CAP Art of Argument - curriculum with student and teacher books - this seems to be more of a rhetoric class than a formal logic class? It’s hard to tell from the description

 

[ByGrace3]

Both of my high schoolers did Art of Argument and Discovery of Deduction with Schole Academy. My husband and I are convinced it was some of the best money we have spent in homeschooling. The classes were excellent and years later my kids are regularly using and talking about what they learned. My dd17 came home from a college science DE class talking about how her professor was praising her logic and critical thinking skills . . . My youngest will take Art of Argument next year and I am very much looking forward to it! 

[cintinative]

Art of Argument is informal logic--the logical fallacies, identifying them, etc.

CAP has another product called The Discovery of Deduction which is their "formal logic" product. They also have a writing based product that I have heard is focused on persuasive writing which is called The Argument Builder.

 

We used Art of Argument (informal logic) followed by Traditional Logic I by Memoria Press. The latter is dry, but the first course went okay. Traditional Logic I and II are Aristotelian logic.  When we got to Traditional Logic II it fell apart for my oldest.  I was not able to do it alongside him and he got confused and couldn't do the work. So I dropped it at around Chapter 6 and he did a good portion of A Concise Introduction to Logic 11th edition http://home.iitk.ac.in/~avrs/PH142/Books/Patrick2012.pdf  (I did buy a hard copy) with youtube videos from here:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLS8vfA_ckeuZ9UjAHhA1q-ROZGuE_h21V  This is a college text and it gets into symbolic logic.  There are answers in the back for the evens, or we also have a quizlet membership that allows access to the solutions they have (which wasn't all, by the way).  A Concise introduction includes an overview of informal logic and does cover some of the Aristotelian logic that Traditional Logic I by Memoria Press covers. 

I checked out the Kreeft book from the library and we read a few chapters with him. 

TBH, I feel like we should have taken a broader view of what we wanted from our formal logic studies before we started.  

The Canon Press logic product (sold by Roman Roads), as I understand it, covers formal logic differently than the MP product. I am unfortunately not familiar with it. My friend teaches using it but supplements from Art of Argument.

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by cintinative

[cintinative]

If you scroll down in this thread, there is a copy and paste where Martin Cochran of Memoria Press discusses the differences between their product, Traditional Logic, and the Canon/Logos Press product, Intermediate Logic.

 

[Guest]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:34 AM, ByGrace3 said:

Both of my high schoolers did Art of Argument and Discovery of Deduction with Schole Academy. My husband and I are convinced it was some of the best money we have spent in homeschooling. The classes were excellent and years later my kids are regularly using and talking about what they learned. My dd17 came home from a college science DE class talking about how her professor was praising her logic and critical thinking skills . . . My youngest will take Art of Argument next year and I am very much looking forward to it! 

@ByGrace3 Did you count Art of Argument and Discovery of Deduction as Logic credits or as Composition credits? On the Schole Academy website, it says those classes could be counted as a credit in "composition, speech and debate, or logic." 

I'm curious how it could end up qualifying as a composition credit. Is there a lot of writing involved? What kind of writing?

THe CAP website says that Art of Argument is a 1/2 credit class, but the Schole Class counts it as a full credit. Do you happen to know why?

 

[ByGrace3]

2 hours ago, WTM said:

@ByGrace3 Did you count Art of Argument and Discovery of Deduction as Logic credits or as Composition credits? On the Schole Academy website, it says those classes could be counted as a credit in "composition, speech and debate, or logic." 

I'm curious how it could end up qualifying as a composition credit. Is there a lot of writing involved? What kind of writing?

THe CAP website says that Art of Argument is a 1/2 credit class, but the Schole Class counts it as a full credit. Do you happen to know why?

 

I counted it as logic and we did one in 8th grade and one in 9th so only counted one. There was some writing but not a significant amount. CAP has them each done in a semester but Schole adds some assignments and spends a year on each. My kids really thrived in the Schole classes.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

I counted it as logic and we did one in 8th grade and one in 9th so only counted one. There was some writing but not a significant amount. CAP has them each done in a semester but Schole adds some assignments and spends a year on each. My kids really thrived in the Schole classes.

Thank you! Did you consider teaching it yourself? What made you choose the class?

[ByGrace3]

9 hours ago, WTM said:

Thank you! Did you consider teaching it yourself? What made you choose the class?

I actually taught Art of Argument in a co-op setting with my oldest. The other students were not invested and neither were the parents -- they didn't understand the importance and thought it was too hard. We highly prioritize the learning of logic and it was an important class for us. Since we didn't get the experience we wanted that year at co-op, and I felt the group experience would definitely enrich the class, I had my dd repeat AoA at Schole the following year. I am so glad we did. The two Schole logic classes remain some of the best investments we have made in our homeschool journey. 

[flmom79]

3 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

I actually taught Art of Argument in a co-op setting with my oldest. The other students were not invested and neither were the parents -- they didn't understand the importance and thought it was too hard. We highly prioritize the learning of logic and it was an important class for us. Since we didn't get the experience we wanted that year at co-op, and I felt the group experience would definitely enrich the class, I had my dd repeat AoA at Schole the following year. I am so glad we did. The two Schole logic classes remain some of the best investments we have made in our homeschool journey. 

I was planning on doing Art of Argument with my 7th grader next year -- ByGrace3, do you think this is feasible without the outside support of Schooler?

[ByGrace3]

Just now, flmom79 said:

I was planning on doing Art of Argument with my 7th grader next year -- ByGrace3, do you think this is feasible without the outside support of Schooler?

It absolutely can be done on your own. 

[flmom79]

1 minute ago, flmom79 said:

I was planning on doing Art of Argument with my 7th grader next year -- ByGrace3, do you think this is feasible without the outside support of Schooler?

I mean Schole Academy.   Autocorrect drives me crazy 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ByGrace3 said:

It absolutely can be done on your own. 

Thanks for the vote of confidence 🙂 I know you were addressing @flmom79, but this also helps me plan for next year. The Schole online class sounds wonderful, but the scheduling is going to be very challenging, as we won’t know DE schedules until mid-September (our CC is quarter system). 

I’m tentatively planning an accelerated pass through AoA over the summer, then using DoD (at home, without online class) during the school year.

Do you think Discovery of Deduction is also doable at home?

[ByGrace3]

3 hours ago, WTM said:

 

Do you think Discovery of Deduction is also doable at home?

Yes, I think the class adds to the experience, but for sure the content can be taught on your own. 

[missymeunier]

We did the Art of Argument and the Argument Builder at home and we loved it.  We had some amazing discussions.  We also are in the process of doing the Discovery of Deduction (formal logic) at home.  It's a great course, but I wish I had invested in the videos or done it as a class at Schole. The concepts were a bit more complex, and it would have been nice to have extra explanation :).

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, missymeunier said:

We did the Art of Argument and the Argument Builder at home and we loved it.  We had some amazing discussions.  We also are in the process of doing the Discovery of Deduction (formal logic) at home.  It's a great course, but I wish I had invested in the videos or done it as a class at Schole. The concepts were a bit more complex, and it would have been nice to have extra explanation :).

 

Good to know!!

FYI There are teacher videos on their teacher site, classical U. I haven’t watched them, so I don’t know how helpful they might be. You could still purchase the videos— they are available by streaming.

[RubyPenn]

I had one child do Art of Argument at home, then the other did it at co-op.  Both of them enjoyed the course and learned a lot.  My second child did the Canon Press's Introductory Logic with the video lessons, which was a success because the material is very clear and the instructor, Brian Kohl, is engaging.  Child #2 will be doing the same next year.