Science Options

[wendyroo]

Peter is in 8th grade, and is currently taking the online Edmentum class Advanced Chemistry (prepping for the AP test, though he is opting not to take it) through his virtual school. It is labeled as "with lab", but they are almost all virtual labs. 

Last year, he took a high school level Physics course with a lot of labs. When he started the virtual school, he tested out of their physics class (with a very high score), but that class will just show up on that transcript as "passed", not with a grade or the "with lab" designation.

Next year he is going to do an Advanced Biology class at home with lots of physical labs.

So that means that at the end of 9th grade, he will have:
Physics - 1 credit (with "pass" grade)
Advanced Chemistry with labs - 1 credit (with mostly virtual labs)
Advanced Biology with labs - 1 credit

Peter is very much a STEM kiddo (considering majoring in math), and will probably want to take science every year. (I am not convinced he will want to take any AP tests.) He likes physics a lot, but won't want to take another course that goes through the same ramp/spring/circuit labs at home that he did last year. I've considered suggesting he dual enroll Calc based Physics after he takes Calculus next year.

Are there other sciences that he could take as "lab sciences"?
Is there an online physics class that focuses more on computer simulation labs (this would be very much up his alley)?
Is there a compelling reason for him to take a chemistry class with more real "lab" labs (probably dual enrolled) if that is not an area he is super interested in?
Realistically, if he ends up with lots of high level STEM classes and dual enrollment, will colleges really care what/how many classes are labeled "with lab"?

Thanks

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

Anatomy & Physiology or Microbiology would build off of his Biology experience. Geology is often offered with a lab. 

I would definitely seek out options for as much in-person lab-based experience as possible. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[EKS]

Disclaimer: I think that the vast majority of lab experiences in high school (and even college) are a crock.  I get that colleges want students to have them, but I'm pretty sure that they have never actually thought through what that means.

That said...

There is a textbook that is called Matter and Interactions that has students actually do computer programming of simulations.  At least I think this is what it does.  The blogger Gas Station Without Pumps used it with his son as part of an AP Physics C course.

The question is, what is a lab?  Is it about playing with equipment and materials?  Is it about gathering data and making random guesses?  Or is it about thinking about data and the physical world in a certain way?

As long as you consider a lab experience to be primarily about that last thing, you can make practically any science course, natural or social, into a lab course.  I don't know whether colleges will be on board with this interpretation though.

Edited October 26, 2022 by EKS

[cintinative]

Clover Valley Chemistry has an organic/biochem class  https://clovervalleychemistry.com/introduction-to-organic-chemistry-biochemistry/

I'm not sure if that would fit? 

[wendyroo]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Disclaimer: I think that the vast majority of lab experiences in high school (and even college) are a crock.  I get that colleges want students to have them, but I'm pretty sure that they have never actually thought through what that means.

I agree completely. Even at MIT, the general "lab" classes were pretty pointless. You didn't really learn useful lab skills until you worked as an ungrad research assistant in the professors' labs doing actual experiments to study actual research questions.

Quote

That said...

There is a textbook that is called Matter and Interactions that has students actually do computer programming of simulations.  At least I think this is what it does.  The blogger Gas Station Without Pumps used it with his son as part of an AP Physics course.

Thanks - I will definitely look into those. That is the type of lab that Peter would find interesting and challenging...and a type of "lab" work that is very much used in the "real world".

Quote

The question is, what is a lab?  Is it about playing with equipment and materials?  Is it about gathering data and making random guesses?  Or is it about thinking about data and the physical world in a certain way?

As long as you consider a lab experience to be primarily about that last thing, you can make practically any science course, natural or social, into a lab course.  I don't know whether colleges will be on board with this interpretation though.

The whole "lab science" designation feels fairly absurd because from elementary level on I have made all my kids' science classes focus on the bolded. We have used a lot of Mr. Q science classes because right from the beginning he has kids doing real experiments - making hypotheses, assigning independent and dependent variables, gathering data, seeing if results are repeatable, accounting for error, etc. Realistically, many of the standard high school "labs" are glorified demonstrations more than true scientific experiments.

Since Peter is far more interested in the physics side of science, I am going to look into courses in that vein that I could offer with labs. Either Calc based physics or the Matter and Interactions book you mentioned. I also thought of Rocketry - that could involve fun labs. Or Optics and Acoustics. Or Robotics.

Thanks.

[EKS]

21 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Either Calc based physics or the Matter and Interactions book you mentioned.

Note that Matter and Interactions is calculus based physics.

[wendyroo]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Note that Matter and Interactions is calculus based physics.

Yeah, I did notice that. I meant to say either DE calc based physics or that book.

Since Peter already has an algebra-based physics credit, is a strong math student, and will be taking Calc in 9th grade, I don't see any reason for him to take any more alg-based physics courses. If he takes physics again, it will be calc-based.

[Malam]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:48 AM, EKS said:

I think that the vast majority of lab experiences in high school (and even college) are a crock

I've been thinking about this as well. Can you think of any lab experiments that would be meaningful? I can imagine any lab where error propagation is studied being useful, but that's not specific to particular lab experiment.

 

He could DE in a college biology class, which will likely have a lab component. He could probably take the biology CLEP exam after his advanced biology class, and then use that class to place into a bioinformatics/genetics/cell biology class. He could also take the chemistry CLEP and then take an analytical or organic chemistry class later on.

 

My number one recommendation would just be to follow his interest and take multiple years of calculus-based physics. Matter and Interactions has more stuff than the standard calculus-based physics texts (for example, homework that involves programming physics simulations), so you could easily expect three years for Mechanics, then EM, then Modern/Optics/whatever else.

 

On 10/24/2022 at 12:30 PM, wendyroo said:

right from the beginning [Mr. Q] has kids doing real experiments - making hypotheses, assigning independent and dependent variables, gathering data, seeing if results are repeatable, accounting for error, etc

Is this only true for his advanced classes, or his basic classes as well?

Edited October 25, 2022 by Malam

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, Malam said:

Is this only true for his advanced classes, or his basic classes as well?

He doesn't really have regular and advanced classes...though he does label them that way. His "regular" books are elementary level. His "advanced" books are supposedly middle and/or high school level, but I find them perfect for upper elementary and middle school, and would find them very light for high school.

That said, yes, he incorporates real experiments into all of his elementary and upper level courses. There are also a lot of demonstration activities (he has a lab activity each week), but about once per unit there is a true experiment.

For example, in Elementary Life Science, the students experiment to see if temperature effects diffusion through a membrane. Students put tea bags in hot, room temperature and cold water. They then put each tea bag on a separate paper towel for a certain length of time. Afterwards, they measure the size of the tea stains on the paper towels. It is discussed that the independent variable is the water temperature, and the dependent variable is the stain size.

Mr. Q offers lab sheets are various difficulty levels, so that even young elementary students can start by recording their "guess". By 5th grade he has them filling out a lab sheet that is rudimentary, but contains all necessary sections (hypothesis, variables, materials, procedure, conclusion, etc).

The great thing is that Mr. Q Elementary Life Science is completely free, so anyone can evaluate it fully before buying any other levels...and the other levels go on a very good sale once a year.

[Malam]

7 hours ago, wendyroo said:

the other levels go on a very good sale once a year

What time of year?

[wendyroo]

5 hours ago, Malam said:

What time of year?

Middle of January - all his books are half price for a week. You can get on his mailing list to be notified.